You’re right. They’re not the same which is why I believe it is a form of silly innovation. But it’s clear as day asking for help doesn’t mean worship, ultimately they’re asking the dead person to make dua to Allah, they know that only Allah can answer Duas
The Reality Of What They Call The Ottoman Khilāfah [Ottoman Empire]
- Thread starter Omar del Sur
- Start date
The Quran makes it clear that the dead can’t hear. Miracles and the prophets being able to hear doesn’t mean the average person can
Odious Delirium
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Yasir qadhi isn't the only individual throughout history to hold that view. I don't follow yasir qhadi at all. Most people who think tawasul is valid don't either (personally have never done it)
I don’t think our dear friend understands that a good % of scholars of the past held that view
Our friend here can’t seem to understand that there is a difference between making dua on behalf of someone and worshipping the person. I’m speaking plain English here and btw I don’t agree with asking the dead to make dua, personally think it’s dumb but in honest enough to see and understand that it is clearly not grave worship.
Odious Delirium
VIP
The shuhadaah and prophet's are alive and cognitive in there graves. Of course the average person can't but the prophet's can
Gacmeey
Madaxweynaha Qurbo Joogta 🇸🇴
The ottomans were doomed whether or not the arabs turned on them. Most of the empires were on the decline and by the turn of the 20th century they were obsolete. The Russian empire, the British empire, the German empire, Austria-Hungarian empire etc all made way for the rid of nation states and the emergence of a new type of empire which was created through spheres of influence rather than vast land borders
Yes but unfortunately some people are silly enough to think you can ask a random dead person to make dua for you like you can ask a person in your fam who is alive. That’s what Omar and I are talking about, although I wager that Omar believes Tawassul through the Prophet is Haram
well if I'm working in a hospital and we get a patient from Nigeria... they only speak Hausa and I ask my co-worker to translate.... how am I communicating with the translator??? just normal speech. if I text my friend "hey, can you help me move some furniture".... then that's text.
so texting, speaking... all that is one thing.
but how do you ask a dead person??? the person who goes to the grave, makes dua to the dead person.... this person is making dua. to the dead person.
this is very blatant shirk.
it's not enough to say "oh yeah, I think it's a bid'ah, I think it's haraam, misguided, etc. " it is shirk. a person is still not having the right view until they say it is shirk.
any dua to other than Allah is shirk, absolutely.
this whole shubuhat of people trying to say "no, no it isn't shirk- we're just asking the dead to make dua for us".... this is just like the mushrikeen that the Quran talks about
Unquestionably, for Allah is the pure religion. And those who take protectors besides Him [say], “We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position.” Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide he who is a liar and [confirmed] disbeliever.
-Surah Zumar 39:3
Unquestionably, for Allah is the pure religion. And those who take protectors besides Him [say], “We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position.” Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide he who is a liar and [confirmed] disbeliever.
-Surah Zumar 39:3
Silly take as that also extends to asking someone to make dua for you who is alive. I have a simply question Omar, do you believe I can ask you to make dua for me??? I’m not communicating my wants to Allah directly, but can I use you to that?
They believe the dead can hear like you and me. That’s the issue. If you were asking me to make dua for YOU are you worshipping me? Of course not. They simply believe the dead can hear like you and me can hear each other. That’s the issue.
Nope, shirk is when you supplicate to others other than Allah. They’re asking someone to ask Allah for them. Ultimately they know onlh Allah can give what they want. If I ask my mother to ask Allah for me is that Shirk?
sure, post on here and you can ask me. but can you do some weird ritual where you invoke me and supplicate me to make dua for you... of course not.
this idea that trying to invoke some dead person like the Shia going "ya Ali"... that this is just like if you ask me for a glass of water.... these are very blatantly not the same thing. people can try to make it out to be this big complicated thing but it isn't.
Making Du’a (supplication) to the dead – Imam Ibn Baz
by AbdurRahman.orgFebruary 1, 2020
31-Ruling on making Du’a’ the dead
Q: What is the ruling on those who make Du’a’ (supplication) to the dead?
Ans by Imam Ibn Baz (rahimahullaah):
Those who make Du`a’ (supplication) to the dead are Mushriks (those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity or worship). If they make Du’a’ to the dead, idols, trees, stones, angels or jinn, they will be regarded as Kafirs (disbelievers) as making Du’a’ to all these leads to one thing; namely, Kufr (disbelief that takes the Muslim out of Islam),
One thing that can be excluded from this ruling which is seeking help from his fellow Muslim brother or non-Muslim like buying a commodity from a non-Muslim, asking him to build a shop or mend a car while the person while he is alive. This case is considered to be exceptional and is not a kind of Shirk. It is similar to what Allah (Exalted be He) mentions in the story of Musa (Moses): (The man of his own) party asked him for help against his foe)
If one asks his fellow Muslim brother or the non-Muslim, who is present, to do something for him like building a house, mending the car, or plowing the land in return for something, or they agree upon doing something that is legally permitted, there will be nothing wrong as all these things are normal and can be done by human beings who are alive and present.
But what is Munkar (that which is unacceptable or disapproved of by Islamic law and Muslims of sound intellect) is making Du’a’ to those who are not present and cannot hear him, the dead or a living person whom he thinks to be supernatural and has a mysterious power. This understanding leads him to think that if he makes Du’a’ to this person for forgiveness and admittance to paradise, he will be able to do this because of something secret about this person. This is Munkar even if the person who is invoked besides Allah (Exalted be He) is living.
There are many Sufis who worship their Shaykhs and their senior and prestigious persons who are dead. They ask them for help and make Du’a’ to them to cure the sick. All these things are considered to be major Shirk (associating others with Allah in His Divinity or worship) even if the person whom they make Du`a’ to is alive because they ask him something beyond his abilities. This behavior differs from asking a person to lend you something, build a house for you, cultivate some land, mend a car, bring your belongings from the car, and so on. All these things are normal and contain there is nothing wrong in them.
Odious Delirium
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Not that many people hold the view that you can ask anyone and if anything prior to abdul wahaab and still to this day majority of those who call themselves Muslims think tawasul to the prophet is OK and they still do it In suadi Arabia when they go to the prophet's grave. I don't think the vast majority of Muslims are on falsehood because the prophet said that majority wouldn't ever be following falsehood in this ummah on large scales ever. Most of this ummah is sunni and most sunnis hold this belief
Can large numbers be quoted as evidence of truth? And the meaning of the hadith “My ummah will not agree on misguidance”
147341Publication : 10-12-2015
Views : 44031
EN
Question
We all know that there is clear shirk in some of the books of Jamaa‘at at-Tableegh. I was talking with a friend of mine about this matter, and he said to me: if Jamaa‘at at-Tableegh is wrong, then why does it have all these followers, when the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “My ummah will not agree on misguidance”? Could you explain to me the meaning of this hadith and what is the response to the claim made by my friend?Answer
RelatedPraise be to Allah.
At-Tirmidhi (2167) narrated from Ibn ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Allah will not cause my ummah to agree on falsehood; the hand of Allah is with the jamaa‘ah (the main body of the Muslims).” Classed as hasan by al-Albaani.
The meaning of this hadith is that Allah has protected the scholars of the ummah of Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) from unanimously agreeing upon something false.
This protection is only for all the scholars of the ummah during any given period. As for the agreement of some of them or most of them on something, that is not protected from error.
Similarly, if the common folk are agreed on some matter, that does not indicate that it is true, because what matters here is the scholars, not the common folk or the ignorant.
Abu ‘Eesa at-Tirmidhi said in his Sunan: What is meant by the jamaa‘ah (the main body of the Muslims), according to the scholars, is the scholars of fiqh, knowledge and hadith.
Al-Mulla ‘Ali al-Qaari said: The hadith indicates that if the Muslims unanimously agree on something, then it must be true, and what is meant is the unanimous agreement of the scholars. The consensus of the common folk does not carry any weight, because it is not based on knowledge.
End quote from Mirqaat al-Mafaateeh (2/61)
Ash-Shaatibi said: There is no difference of opinion concerning the fact that the agreement of the common folk is of no significance.
End quote from al-I‘tisaam (1/354)
The fact that there are many who follow one of the jamaa‘ahs, groups or sects is not an indication that they are following truth. The Christians are greater in number than the Muslims, and the followers of innovation and misguidance are more numerous than Ahl as-Sunnah in some countries, but does that mean that they are following truth?!
Abu Shaamah al-Maqdisi (may Allah have mercy on him) said: When there is a command to adhere to the jamaa‘ah (the main body of the Muslims), what is meant is adhering to the truth and following it, even if those who adhere to the truth are few and those who go against it are many, because the truth is that which is followed by the early group, the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) and his Companions (may Allah be pleased with them), and no attention should be paid to the large numbers of those who followed falsehood after their time.
End quote from al-Baa‘ith ‘ala Inkaar al-Bida‘ wa’l-Hawaadith (p. 22)
One of the ways in which Allah deals with His creation is that the followers of truth are few in comparison to the followers of falsehood. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And most of mankind will not believe even if you desire it eagerly”
[Yoosuf 12:103]
“Verily, it is the truth from your Lord, but most of mankind believe not”
[Hood 11:17]
“And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allah’s Path”
[al-An‘aam 6:116].
Shaykh as-Sa‘di said: This verse indicates that the number of followers is no indicator of truth, and that scarcity of followers does not signal that something is not truth. Rather reality is something other than that, for the people of truth are the fewest in number, but are the greatest in esteem and reward before Allah. Rather we must determine what is true and what is false on the basis of proof and evidence.
End quote from Tafseer as-Sa‘di (1/270)
Ruling on Asking the Dead to Make Dua for you - Ustadh AbdulAziz Al-Haqqan
salafis believe tawasul through graves is shirk
are you hanafi?
thats prayer, not tawassul, tawassul does not equal prayer, or salaah or duaaa, or ibaadah
he follows muhammed ibn abdul wahhab and so do all his ulama do the same, therefore his opinion to me is bias and wrong.
the problem is when you are "salafi"(this doesn't make sense since the salaf would hold the view that tasawwuf through the Prophet is allowed) you are so brainwashed and do taqleed of your scholars (ironic) that you cannot even engage in an intellectual discussion without lying on the other person and misinterpreting all their arguments.
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