The Reality Of What They Call The Ottoman Khilāfah [Ottoman Empire]

[Omar del Sur]

Omar are you not somali you said you were Mexican do mean nationality if yes what is your ethnicity

Mestizo

 

[MR.𐒈𐒝𐒑𐒛𐒐𐒘]

Arabs are the biggest sellouts and i have no interest in wanting to be ruled over foreigners by sharia no no no no no.

 

[Qeelbax]

How does a Mexican end up suffering from Saud-dicksucking-itis? I’m genuinely curious yet downright concerned.

 

[Qeelbax]

It seem you support nationalism over the Khalifa

You could say the same about the Turkish and Persians

 

[Angelina]

in what scenario can a person worshipping graves and praying to saints be in a better state than someone who worships Allah alone without any partners?

wallahi a homeless person who worships Allah alone is better off than a rich person who associates partners with Allah.

They didn’t worship graves they made Tawassul thought the dead. I don’t agree with that at all but it isn’t the same as worshiping the grave. If we’re going to critique we might as well be accurate about what exactly they do

 

[Aurelian]

I mean look at the quality of his sources, he never says anything, nor provide credible sources of academia. Nothing but parroting screaming old men who probably never finished high school

 

[Qeelbax]

I mean look at the quality of his sources, he never says anything, nor provide credible sources of academia. Nothing but parroting screaming old men who probably never finished high school

It’s just Saudis defending their dads and grand dads, literally. They would never say their rulers committed kufr.

 

[Omar del Sur]

How does a Mexican end up suffering from Saud-dicksucking-itis? I’m genuinely curious yet downright concerned.

no idea what being against things like worshipping graves has to do with any ethnicity.

let's just be honest and upfront. I am for salafiyyah and you're against it. I think both our viewpoints have something to do with that. we can say whatever against each other but I think it just goes back to that.

 

[Omar del Sur]

It’s just Saudis defending their dads and grand dads, literally. They would never say their rulers committed kufr.

the first two videos are from a Sudanese and Egyptian

 

[Omar del Sur]

I mean look at the quality of his sources, he never says anything, nor provide credible sources of academia. Nothing but parroting screaming old men who probably never finished high school

"credible sources of academia"... you were promoting evolution like two seconds ago... how is your understanding of what sources are credible any different than that of an atheist?

 

[Omar del Sur]

They didn’t worship graves they made Tawassul thought the dead. I don’t agree with that at all but it isn’t the same as worshiping the grave. If we’re going to critique we might as well be accurate about what exactly they do

tawassul through the dead... as in going to the graves and asking the dead for help???? do you not think that's shirk? from the correct viewpoint, it's definitely shirk.

 

[Angelina]

tawassul through the dead... as in going to the graves and asking the dead for help???? do you not think that's shirk? from the correct viewpoint, it's definitely shirk.

I see Tawassul through the dead to be misguided and to be frank it doesn’t make sense to me. However it clearly isn’t grave worship as if someone was to do Tawassul through a person that’s alive you’d never say that person is being worshiped. Clearly it isn’t grave worship.

 

[Omar del Sur]

I see Tawassul through the dead to be misguided and to be frank it doesn’t make sense to me. However it clearly isn’t grave worship as if someone was to do Tawassul through a person that’s alive you’d never say that person is being worshiped. Clearly it isn’t grave worship.

but... just to be clear... we are talking about going to a grave and asking the dead person to help us, right? I think maybe you're following YQ's view.

I have no doubt that it's shirk. I don't have any question that a person praying to a dead person is committing shirk.

 

[Angelina]

but... just to be clear... we are talking about going to a grave and asking the dead person to help us, right? I think maybe you're following YQ's view.

I don’t follow his view at all. His view has been in existence for centuries and even the scholars at the time of Ibn Taymiyyah believed in it which is why he refuted them and they refuted him.

I don’t agree with asking a dead man tmake dua on my behalf because he’s well…. Dead so what can he do for me? However, I can’t call it grave worshipping because if you see that as worship then surely you see asking for tawassul from someone alive is also worshiping? Do you see the dilemma? We have to consistent.

I have no doubt that it's shirk. I don't have any question that a person praying to a dead person is committing shirk.

They’re not praying to them. That’s my point in which you’re refusing to understand. They’re doing Tawassul which is asking them to make dua on their behalf. But the biggest issue is, can the dead hear? And If they can, are their duas still accepted? I’m of the opinion that their duas probably aren’t accepted and their is no point for people alive asking them to make dua on their behalf, you’re better off making dua yourself or asking someone whose dua is still answered as they’re still alive. Hence, I take the view of Ibn Taymiyya.

Anyways Omar, what do you think of Tawassul from someone alive? I’m interested to know your view?

 

[Odious Delirium]

but... just to be clear... we are talking about going to a grave and asking the dead person to help us, right? I think maybe you're following YQ's view.

I have no doubt that it's shirk. I don't have any question that a person praying to a dead person is committing shirk.

I believe there is hadeeths of the prophet being alive aswell as all the prophet and are aware of what goes on around there graves and tawasul is just asking someone to do dua for you or to intercede on your behalf that's very different to praying to or grave worshipping. Plus people only do tawassul for the most part to the prophet. There seems to be no problem with asking people who are alive to do tawasul.

if someone where to do ask people to make dua for him or her on this forum wouldn't that be tawasul to both the dead and alive? Since some user are probably dead and the seeking of dua is rather general to the whole site? Would that be shrikh?

I personally dont think there is anything wrong with doing tawasul via the prophet if you where wondering what my stance on this topic is and many sheikh of great prominence hold this opinion it's not a black or white matter that can just be written off as shirkh and if it where shirk why would it be allowed with people who are alive?

 

[Angelina]

I believe there is hadeeths of the prophet being alive aswell as all the prophet and are aware of what goes on around there graves and tawasul is just asking someone to do dua for you or to intercede on your behalf that's very different to praying to or grave worshipping. Plus people only do tawassul for the most part to the prophet.

That’s my point. @Omar del Sur and I are in agreement that asking for dua from the dead is pointless and from my humble perspective, it’s wrong. But you can’t call tawassul through the dead grave worship unless it’s a very jahil person who is invoking the name of a person and calling out someone that isn’t Allah. There is a difference between active worship and asking for dua to be made on your behalf. If Salafis are going to call it worship then logically Tawassul though someone alive is also a form of worship as well if we follow their train of thought. The dilemma isn’t about the act itself but about the fact that the dead can’t make dua for you, only someone that is alive .

 

[Omar del Sur]

I don’t follow his view at all. His view has been in existence for centuries and even the scholars at the time of Ibn Taymiyyah believed in it which is why he refuted them and they refuted him.

I don’t agree with asking a dead man tmake dua on my behalf because he’s well…. Dead so what can he do for me? However, I can’t call it grave worshipping because if you see that as worship then surely you see asking for tawassul from someone alive is also worshiping? Do you see the dilemma? We have to consistent.

They’re not praying to them. That’s my point in which you’re refusing to understand. They’re doing Tawassul which is asking them to make dua on their behalf. But the biggest issue is, can the dead hear? And If they can, are their duas still accepted? I’m of the opinion that their duas probably aren’t accepted and their is no point for people alive asking them to make dua on their behalf, you’re better off making dua yourself or asking someone whose dua is still answered as they’re still alive. Hence, I take the view of Ibn Taymiyya.

Anyways Omar, what do you think of Tawassul from someone alive? I’m interested to know your view?

How is your view any different than Yasir Qadhi's? to me it seems it's the exact same thing "oh, yes, of course I don't agree with praying to dead people.... but it isn't shirk".... where exactly is the difference.

so if a Catholic prays to the virgin Mary and you try to talk to them about tawheed and they say (in accordance with the Catholic doctrine) "no, this isn't idolatry- I am simply asking the virgin to pray on our behalf"- that person isn't committing shirk according to you?

what do I think of tawassul from a living person... what do you mean specifically? praying to them? if you make dua to other than Allah it is shirk.

but are you saying that making dua to a dead person is just like someone coming from the grocery asking their family member to help carry the groceries? if I'm dealing with someone who only speaks a certain language... and I ask someone in the same room as me to to help translate... are you saying that's the same as making dua to a dead person?

 

[Omar del Sur]

If Salafis are going to call it worship then logically Tawassul though someone alive is also a form of worship as well if we follow their train of thought. The dilemma isn’t about the act itself but about the fact that the dead can’t make dua for you, only someone that is alive .

again- are you saying that asking someone in the same room as me to translate for me or help carry some groceries into the house... are you saying that is the same thing as praying to a dead person?? if so, that is completely silly.

even a person who has never heard of Islam would naturally know that these are not at all the same. it would not be some "dilemma" to recognize these are way different things.

 

[Odious Delirium]

That’s my point. @Omar del Sur and I are in agreement that asking for dua from the dead is pointless and from my humble perspective, it’s wrong. But you can’t call tawassul through the dead grave worship unless it’s a very jahil person who is invoking the name of a person and calling out someone that isn’t Allah. There is a difference between active worship and asking for dua to be made on your behalf. If Salafis are going to call it worship then logically Tawassul though someone alive is also a form of worship as well if we follow their train of thought. The dilemma isn’t about the act itself but about the fact that the dead can’t make dua for you, only someone that is alive .

The thing is all the prophet's are alive and praying in there graves. So unless one thinks doing tawasul to the living is shirk or pointless in your opinion then one would have to prove it wrong to ask an alive person first before anything else because most people are only doing tawasul at the prophet's grave. Everyone is in agreement that grave worshipping is wrong and asking through people as intermediaries whether they are dead or alive is shirk.

 

[Angelina]

How is your view any different than Yasir Qadhi's? to me it seems it's the exact same thing "oh, yes, of course I don't agree with praying to dead people.... but it isn't shirk".... where exactly is the difference.

They’re not praying to them. If you were to ask your mother to make dua for you are you praying to her? Yes or no?

The reason why I think Tawassul for a dead person is haram is because the dead can’t make dua for you, in fact I don’t believe they can hear the living.

Like I said if you think asking the dead to make dua for you is praying to them then you think asking your parents or your friends to make dua for you is praying to them. That’s the can of worms you open. Get it?

so if a Catholic prays to the virgin Mary and you try to talk to them about tawheed and they say (in accordance with the Catholic doctrine) "no, this isn't idolatry- I am simply asking the virgin to pray on our behalf"- that person isn't committing shirk according to you?

That’s the issue, you’re purposely misunderstood what tawassul is. You’re not praying to them, you’re asking them to make dua for you. It’s very simple.

what do I think of tawassul from a living person... what do you mean specifically? praying to them? if you make dua to other than Allah it is shirk.

What is your view of Tawassul? Do you even know what it means? It simply means to ask someone to make dua for you. That isn’t haram. I can ask you to make dua for me right now

but are you saying that making dua to a dead person is just like someone coming from the grocery asking their family member to help carry the groceries? if I'm dealing with someone who only speaks a certain language... and I ask someone in the same room as me to to help translate... are you saying that's the same as making dua to a dead person?

It’s basically asking a dead person to make for them. I don’t agree with that since the dead person can’t even hear. But they’re not praying to them, that should be obvious