Treaty of Umar r.a

[486th President]

Yes. That's the whole point. If I lived in Vatican I wouldn't be allowed to play the adhan 5 times a day, I wouldn't be allowed to do much more.

So you want us to be like those people

 

[Villainess]

@Asli if you think this is good then Christian countries should do the same right @Revolutionary

yes.

 

[486th President]

yes.

Nah fam Muslims would be protesting if these rules were a thing fam it’s unlawful

 

[Villainess]

So you want us to be like those people

Why not? It is fair and even. I have a right to practice my religion without bothering them. I live in their land so whatever says goes.

 

[Villainess]

Nah fam Muslims would be protesting if these rules were a thing fam it’s unlawful

Show me one Christian country that doesn't already do this? They do it even worse xataa.

 

[Revolutionary]

Nah fam Muslims would be protesting if these rules were a thing fam it’s unlawful

You make a good point but they claim to be of an entirely different ideology where religion and state is separated, also i doubt muslims would have lived there if they didn't promise that

 

[Villainess]

How is it barbaric lol should they not follow the rules of the land

He failed to say why he thought it was against Islam. What's wrong? They are doing it the way Allah ordered it.

 

[486th President]

• Prohibition against building new churches, places of worship, monasteries, monks or a new cell. (Hence it was also forbidden to build new synagogues. It is known that new synagogues were only built after the occupation of Islam, for example in Jerusalem and Ramle. A similar law, prohibiting the build of new synagogues, existed in the Byzantines, and was therefore not new for all Jews. It was new for the Christians.)
• Prohibition against rebuilding destroyed churches, by day or night, in their own neighbourhoods or those situated in the quarters of the Muslims.
• The worship places of non-Muslims must be lower in elevation than the lowest mosque in town.
• The houses of non-Muslims must not be taller in elevation than the houses of Muslim

so @Asli agrees with the list now imagine the roles reversed

So Muslims wouldn’t be able to build mosques
Muslims wouldn’t be able to restore mosques
The mosques would have to be smaller than the smallest churches
The house of Muslims should not be bigger than Christians

its hypocritical and unlawful and not peaceful either

 

[Villainess]

You make a good point but they claim to be of an entirely different ideology where religion and state is separated, also i doubt muslims would have lived there if they didn't promise that

@486th President walal don't forget that they were granted automatic protection by the muslims. If they failed to follow the rules then the protection was broken. Its called a treaty for a reason.
After the rapid expansion of the Muslim dominion in the 7th century, Muslims leaders were required to work out a way of dealing with Non-Muslims, who remained in the majority in many areas for centuries. The solution was to develop the notion of the "dhimma", or "protected person". The Dhimmi were required to pay an extra tax, but usually they were unmolested. This compares well with the treatment meted out to non-Christians in Christian Europe. The Pact of Umar is supposed to have been the peace accord offered by the Caliph Umar to the Christians of Syria, a "pact" which formed the patter of later interaction.


We heard from 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Ghanam [died 78/697] as follows: When Umar ibn al-Khattab, may God be pleased with him, accorded a peace to the Christians of Syria, we wrote to him as follows:

In the name of God, the Merciful and Compassionate. This is a letter to the servant of God Umar [ibn al-Khattab], Commander of the Faithful, from the Christians of such-and-such a city. When you came against us, we asked you for safe-conduct (aman) for ourselves, our descendants, our property, and the people of our community, and we undertook the following obligations toward you:

We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.

We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers. We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.

We shall not give shelter in our churches or in our dwellings to any spy, nor bide him from the Muslims.

We shall not teach the Qur'an to our children.

We shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it. We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.

We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.

We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the qalansuwa, the turban, footwear, or the parting of the hair. We shall not speak as they do, nor shall we adopt their kunyas.

We shall not mount on saddles, nor shall we gird swords nor bear any kind of arms nor carry them on our- persons.

We shall not engrave Arabic inscriptions on our seals.

We shall not sell fermented drinks.

We shall clip the fronts of our heads.

We shall always dress in the same way wherever we may be, and we shall bind the zunar round our waists

We shall not display our crosses or our books in the roads or markets of the Muslims. We shall use only clappers in our churches very softly. We shall not raise our voices when following our dead. We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Muslims or in their markets. We shall not bury our dead near the Muslims.

We shall not take slaves who have beenallotted to Muslims.

We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Muslims.



(When I brought the letter to Umar, may God be pleased with him, he added, "We shall not strike a Muslim.")

We accept these conditions for ourselves and for the people of our community, and in return we receive safe-conduct.

If we in any way violate these undertakings for which we ourselves stand surety, we forfeit our covenant [dhimma], and we become liable to the penalties for contumacy and sedition.

Umar ibn al-Khittab replied: Sign what they ask, but add two clauses and impose them in addition to those which they have undertaken. They are: "They shall not buy anyone made prisoner by the Muslims," and "Whoever strikes a Muslim with deliberate intent shall forfeit the protection of this pact."

from Al-Turtushi, Siraj al-Muluk, pp. 229-230.

 

[486th President]

@486th President walal don't forget that they were granted automatic protection by the muslims. If they failed to follow the rules then the protection was broken. Its called a treaty for a reason.
After the rapid expansion of the Muslim dominion in the 7th century, Muslims leaders were required to work out a way of dealing with Non-Muslims, who remained in the majority in many areas for centuries. The solution was to develop the notion of the "dhimma", or "protected person". The Dhimmi were required to pay an extra tax, but usually they were unmolested. This compares well with the treatment meted out to non-Christians in Christian Europe. The Pact of Umar is supposed to have been the peace accord offered by the Caliph Umar to the Christians of Syria, a "pact" which formed the patter of later interaction.


We heard from 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Ghanam [died 78/697] as follows: When Umar ibn al-Khattab, may God be pleased with him, accorded a peace to the Christians of Syria, we wrote to him as follows:

In the name of God, the Merciful and Compassionate. This is a letter to the servant of God Umar [ibn al-Khattab], Commander of the Faithful, from the Christians of such-and-such a city. When you came against us, we asked you for safe-conduct (aman) for ourselves, our descendants, our property, and the people of our community, and we undertook the following obligations toward you:

We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.

We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers. We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.

We shall not give shelter in our churches or in our dwellings to any spy, nor bide him from the Muslims.

We shall not teach the Qur'an to our children.

We shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it. We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.

We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.

We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the qalansuwa, the turban, footwear, or the parting of the hair. We shall not speak as they do, nor shall we adopt their kunyas.

We shall not mount on saddles, nor shall we gird swords nor bear any kind of arms nor carry them on our- persons.

We shall not engrave Arabic inscriptions on our seals.

We shall not sell fermented drinks.

We shall clip the fronts of our heads.

We shall always dress in the same way wherever we may be, and we shall bind the zunar round our waists

We shall not display our crosses or our books in the roads or markets of the Muslims. We shall use only clappers in our churches very softly. We shall not raise our voices when following our dead. We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Muslims or in their markets. We shall not bury our dead near the Muslims.

We shall not take slaves who have beenallotted to Muslims.

We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Muslims.



(When I brought the letter to Umar, may God be pleased with him, he added, "We shall not strike a Muslim.")

We accept these conditions for ourselves and for the people of our community, and in return we receive safe-conduct.

If we in any way violate these undertakings for which we ourselves stand surety, we forfeit our covenant [dhimma], and we become liable to the penalties for contumacy and sedition.

Umar ibn al-Khittab replied: Sign what they ask, but add two clauses and impose them in addition to those which they have undertaken. They are: "They shall not buy anyone made prisoner by the Muslims," and "Whoever strikes a Muslim with deliberate intent shall forfeit the protection of this pact."

from Al-Turtushi, Siraj al-Muluk, pp. 229-230.

I’m not reading all that are you Dr Osman 2.0 fam

 

[Usopp]

Most of these are unjuste, I question if Umar said that

I believe Al Tabari recorded this in his history of prophets and kings. As it is a book of history not a book of sahih hadith it is not completely trustworthy. @Asli didn't show you the other parts of treaty where Umar protected the people for example Umar refused to pray in Christian church becaue he feared that the muslim would turn into a masjid

 

[Villainess]

so @Asli agrees with the list now imagine the roles reversed

So Muslims wouldn’t be able to build mosques
Muslims wouldn’t be able to restore mosques
The mosques would have to be smaller than the smallest churches
The house of Muslims should not be bigger than Christians

its hypocritical and unlawful and not peaceful either

Exactly. But the thing is, they believe in Church and State.

And they are allowed to build churches. Also, it's haram to build a masjid for the sake of grandness. So the smaller the better

 

[Revolutionary]

Are we going to forget the past and current persecution that the west has done on muslims, France doing so out in the open, they're no saints

 

[486th President]

Exactly. But the thing is, they believe in Church and State.

And they are allowed to build churches. Also, it's haram to build a masjid for the sake of grandness. So the smaller the better

You ignored the first one on the list that we wouldn’t be able to build mosques

 

[Villainess]

I believe Al Tabari recorded this in his history of prophets and kings. As it is a book of history not a book of sahih hadith it is not completely trustworthy. @Asli didn't show you the other parts of treaty where Umar protected the people for example Umar refused to pray in Christian church becaue he feared that the muslim would turn into a masjid

I quoted it all. It is also written down completly. Who said it would be hadith? But we should take example
We heard from 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Ghanam [died 78/697] as follows: When Umar ibn al-Khattab, may God be pleased with him, accorded a peace to the Christians of Syria, we wrote to him as follows

 

[486th President]

Are we going to forget the past and current persecution that the west has done on muslims, France doing so out in the open, they're no saints

I agree with you but the prophet wouldn't want Muslims fighting fire with fire

 

[Villainess]

You ignored the first one on the list that we wouldn’t be able to build mosques

Yes. "we". We wont build it for them and we won't pay for it

We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.

 

[المهندس]

Exactly like what the point of the hight of religious buildings meant to be?

Theres wisdom behind this, masajid places of tawheed rise above places of shirk.

It shows dominance and that sovereignty belongs to Allah aza wajal.

 

[486th President]

Theres wisdom behind this, masajid places of tawheed rise above places of shirk.

It shows dominance and that sovereignty belongs to Allah aza wajal.

@Asli I thought you said we couldn’t build high mosques

 

[Villainess]

@Asli I thought you said we couldn’t build high mosques

I never said that, you misread it. I said we cannot build Masjids for the sake of grandeur.