Understanding Somali Genetics

[Ashraf]

55% ancient East African, and 45% Middle eastern North African. The first migrants of Cushites into East Africa from Egypt/Sudan in the Neolithic were more like 60% Middle eastern North African and 40% proto Nilotic or ancient East African. We then received a further 10 to 15% East African (Mota like without Eurasian input) during our tenure in the Savanna of East Africa.

Our middle eastern is Natufian ( which is dzudzuana (from Georgia) 70%+ Iberomaurasian 30% (North African).
The Iberomaurasian is (dzudzuana 55% + ancestral north African 45%). Ancestral north African is African and not Eurasian.

We are in the end 60% African (0% Bantu/Niger Congo, but 60% ancient proto Nilotic and East Africa Mota like, with some ancestral North Africa ) with about 40% Eurasian (mainly Dzudzuana)

Am I correct @Shimbiris or am I missing something.

Another question are other horners the same as us. Except for south Arabian DNA, do they have the same origin story as us and is there admixture the same excluding south Arabian . E.g tigray. Also why are Eritreans taller than Ethiopians? ( random question)

 

[The alchemist]

Just to be clear, 99% of the "diversity" our Garaad has been going on about is the variation in Yemeni and other more "recent" ancestral components in G25 which is fake:

That's how homogenous Somalis look when you look at the actual MENA (Natufian, Jawf Yemeni, IBM) and SSA (Mota, Dinka) scores. Once you ignore the Kenyans who have a handful of Borana admixed outliers among them, that's seriously a variation of ~2% from the northwest to the northeast to the south and Kenya. So diverse, wallahi. Now, look at these Puntlanders:

Yet when you break down the components for a group like the Puntlanders above you suddenly get the "diversity" our Garaad is talking about 99% of the time:

This is obviously not actual diversity like what genuinely exists among Oromos where even admixture levels vary significantly:

Keep in mind that those Puntlanders are the same Somalis used in most of the studies out there and the same Somalis who have such homogenous and bottlenecked ancestry that they form the Ethio-Somali component at the higher Ks in ADMIXTURE:

There's absolutely nothing "diverse" about their structure. It's just G25 being wonky in the ways I've explained in other threads. It's completely impossible for them to have such tightly clustering overall MENA to SSA scores, form an ADMIXTURE component and be diverse in the more recent components like Jawf-Yemeni like that. Not how recombination and genetics in general works. The recent components in G25 and nMonte are just being skewed by various mechanisms like drift and can even be normalized by structuring your models in other ways as @The alchemist has shown.

And this is generally 99% it in terms of our Garaad's argument. Pretending this fake diversity makes us basically like Oromos or something. Well, that and the 1% where he is using people who occasionally pop up on forums like these because they have stories of admixture in their family (outliers) and acts like they're somehow common cases when they're not. This is a silly subject driven by qabiilism and I'm gonna leave it at that.

The mechanism I showed really put this to bed. It's G25 being undisciplined. When you control for it using other methods, it shows that the Arab does not reach 12%. Anyone that got that much is legit mixed and does not reflect any regional average. We know this by now.

 

[Shimbiris]

Another question are other horners the same as us. Except for south Arabian DNA, do they have the same origin story as us and is there admixture the same excluding south Arabian . E.g tigray. Also why are Eritreans taller than Ethiopians? ( random question)

All Horners are made up of the same basic components. Something on a continuum between Anatolian Hunter-Gatherers and ANAs that G25 makes look "Natufian" but more likely is represented by prehistoric Egyptians; prehistoric Sudanese ancestry similar to most of what's in the Dinkas; then some Ethio-HG (Mota) type admixture and some South Arabian admixture from the Proto-Ethiosemites. All Cushitic and Ethiosemitic Horners appear to have these ancestries. It's just the amounts that vary and not usually by more than 10-15% from ethnic group to ethnic group.

We really are essentially our own biogeographic group with our closest relatives being the peoples of North Sudan and somewhat Chad as well who share in the Prehistoric Egyptian and Sudanese as well as post-Bronze Age Arabian but differ from us in lacking the Ethio-HG, having some West African and also more historical period Egyptian whilst possessing a distinct Y-DNA and mtDNA profile from our region due to more recent waves of admixture.

 

[Garaad Awal]

Tigrinyas are a good group cos they form a tight cluster like Somalis and appear to be a relatively homogenous and "real" ethnicity unlike the meta-ethnicities that are Amharas and Oromos where even the admixture levels noticeably vary:

The model you utilize is simply inferior, my model makes far more sense and the average of 25% Arabian checks out vs your average of Arabian ~30%. Again when using averages and replacing the umayad arabians with EBA Jordanians, the Tigrayans remain in the ~25% range. Yet clearly Somalis from SL & Somalia have differing Semitic admixture.

Let's take a look at Neolithic Iranian admixture which usually comes along with Semitic admixture in Horners:

Again these results replicate the Horner vs Semitic model. Tigrayans witht the most Semitic admixture & Somalians with the lowest Semitic admixture. Also Landers tend to have more Ethio HG ancestry compared to Somalians which makes sense geographically & historically as Landers are closer to the population centers of the Ethio Highlands:

 

[Midas]

Hmmmm. So are we 55 -45 or 60-40? Plus can you explain haplogroup T. Wouldn’t that make northern Somali admixture different? And isn’t ancestral North african Berber? The way I understood it previously was the we were 60% SSA. Proto Nilotic + ancestral East African(extinct) + a tiny amount of omotic. And our Eurasian component was about 40%- Natufian 25% plus North African 15%.

My understanding is that our eurasian ancestry comes from a group ancestral to the naftufians.

Basically the Taforalt north african and the naftufian share a eurasian ancestor. That same ancestor is the source of the maternal eurasian ancestry in somalis. But it's a third branch separate from the north african one or the naftufian one.

 

[Keep it a boqol]

We have yemeni dna? Wtf is jawf Yemeni, and if I’m correct I read we have North African dna from natufians mixing in North Africa before migrating south? And why is it that Amhara and Tigray have kinkier hair despite higher Eurasian.( bit of a weird one). And what is the mota component? Is it omotic?

Hunter gather DNA

 

[Shimbiris]

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What the actual fuark is this? I've been staring at your results over and over looking for the zinger and I'm just lost for words. A 2% (1.8-2.4) difference in Iran_Neolithic or Jordan_EBA between the small sample size averages of two Somali groups? That's your diversity? Your get-back/zinger? Wallahi, I'm just...



It's unbelievable that that is seriously all you could parse out after pulling so much chicanery where you're throwing around a lot of different samples and groups to get whatever result you want and possibly just pulling out differing drift patterns per samples/averages. This is peak silliness. Subxanallah. I'm in shock. @Rayaale he really is fighting for 2% Arabian.

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The model you utilize is simply inferior

After the shit-show above I'll grant you that you did a good job of tightening the modeling of Tigrinyas' Arabian ancestry but even your model is too diverse to be representing real variation among those Tigrinya samples. Once you ignore Tygray5 and Tigray11 who are true outliers with noticeably different MENA-to-SSA compared to rest of the group, the range in Arabian is still too diverse:

You have a range of 4.6% for Arabian in your model between TYGRAY12 and TYGRAY16 despite the difference in MENA-to-SSA ancestry between the two being less than 1% and the overall range of the entire ethnicity—once you ignore the two outliers—being 2%.

Even your model fails in that this is too much diversity in Arabian scores to make complete sense but good job tightening it and I'd say you've gotten close to the truth. As I said, you can throw around as many samples as you like and create more disciplined models as @The alchemist has demonstrated. But the point is that Horner ethnic groups like Somalis and Tigrinyas can't be notably diverse in Arabian ancestry if their MENA-to-SSA scores are so tight whilst the former even tends to form an ADMIXTURE component.

This is a real "diverse" ethnic group where even the base admixture levels are diverse:

Somalis are nothing like that and you know it.

Let me state this one last time, since you seem to be struggling to grasp it: it is completely impossible to have wide variation in Arabian ancestry scores while still clustering tightly on a PCA, sharing the same base admixture levels, and forming a coherent ADMIXTURE component. This shouldn't require constant repetition. Your own attempt to find a difference between reer Koonfur and reer SL proves the point—at most, you found a negligible ~2% variation, which aligns well with the equally negligible ~1% difference in overall admixture levels. The so-called "Somali diversity" you keep pushing—displaying a 5–10% range in Arabian ancestry across Somalis—is simply not real and you know it. Stop playing around.

All that being addressed, I have nothing truly against you, you are kinsman as far as I'm concerned, and I have known you a long time so there's an element of warmth toward you but you are 100% a qabiilist and something of an ana Arab, and that will always cloud everything you say or do and make discussions like this a waste of time so I will leave it at that in terms of replies. People on this forum should know that even when you first joined the anthrosphere you messaged me on Anthrogenica with some wild theory that your Y-DNA was recently Beja until I explained how ridiculous that was. It was plain then as your behavior is now that you will do anything to distance yourself from other Somalis.

But I'm still dead, walaalkay. All that modeling chicanery and all you could do was a 2% noise level difference in something like Iran_N.

 

[Einar68]

@Shimbiris since you seem to know a lot about this topic, if we were to consider horn african/cushitic groups and anyone adjacent (north Sudanese for example) as a subgroup of humans genetically, which modern subgroup of people are "closest" to us (if that even makes sense within the context of human genetics)?

 

[Rayaale]

fighting for 2% Arabian

This guy is a self hating guy, he wished he was more Arabian, we are in the last ten days of Ramadhan I will withhold judgement towards him.

 

[giire12]

Another question are other horners the same as us. Except for south Arabian DNA, do they have the same origin story as us and is there admixture the same excluding south Arabian . E.g tigray. Also why are Eritreans taller than Ethiopians? ( random question)

I think Eritreans are a little different to Ethiopians habasha. I have been working with them alot lately. Around 2016, alot came to the UK. As somalis we are 2nd generation but recent Sudanese and Habesha are 1st generation. What I noticed is that some Eritreans can look like somalis, others look like somali muwalads in yeman, they are usually taller than Ethiopians which is a little strange cause before I thought they were the same. On the other hand, Semtic Ethiopians like amhara all look the same (very unique look). I am sure there is a genetic reason, I am suspecting the Highlands Ethiopians have significant Mota and Omotic influence compared to Eritreans who might have more nubian like or Nilotic DNA elevating their average Height. Look at Alexander Isak from Newcastle United player.

 

[Garaad Awal]

I think Eritreans are a little different to Ethiopians habasha. I have been working with them alot lately. Around 2016, alot came to the UK. As somalis we are 2nd generation but recent Sudanese and Habesha are 1st generation. What I noticed is that some Eritreans can look like somalis, others look like somali muwalads in yeman, they are usually taller than Ethiopians which is a little strange cause before I thought they were the same. On the other hand, Semtic Ethiopians like amhara all look the same (very unique look). I am sure there is a genetic reason, I am suspecting the Highlands Ethiopians have significant Mota and Omotic influence compared to Eritreans who might have more nubian like or Nilotic DNA elevating their average Height. Look at Alexander Isak from Newcastle United player.

Tigrayan from Ethiopia & Eritrean Tigrayans are identical. The Muslim pastoralist Tigre can look like a more Caucasoid version of Somalis but still dark, might be because of their Beja ancestry and lower Mota. Highland Eritreans are absolutely identical to their Nothern Ethiopian counterparts.

 

[Rayaale]

@Shimbiris using terrible models and wondering why he is getting wonky results. I would never use that Dinka +Natufian +Yemeni Jawf +Mota model and draw conclusions. Seriously what kind of model is that? Of course their Yemeni ancestry would vary by a lot. G25 can be wonky but you have to control it with actually realistical models and understand the pops you are using.

To fish out the Cushitic & Arab ancestry in Horners. I use the Kenyan PN samples (including the elmenteitan ones) & the PIA samples for the Somalis and our extra Sudanese-like ancestr into one component. I would then use the Umayyad Arab samples who are devoid of any African ancestry.

Dont the early pastoral samples have high omotic/mota ancestry in them

 

[Shimbiris]

@Shimbiris since you seem to know a lot about this topic, if we were to consider horn african/cushitic groups and anyone adjacent (north Sudanese for example) as a subgroup of humans genetically, which modern subgroup of people are "closest" to us (if that even makes sense within the context of human genetics)?

Cushitic descended and admixed groups in SE Africa like the Iraqw, Tutsis and Maasais. You can model a Tutsi as like ~70% Somali. Quite close to us in the big-scheme of things. Outside of these groups it's really just the groups today who are closest to our SSA and MENA ancestors like Dinkas, Gumuz, Anuaks, Egyptian Copts and various Arabian groups like Yemenis, Naqab Bedouins, Najdis and so forth. Then I guess shared roots and culture with other AA speaking peoples in general on some level to varying degrees.

Anything beyond that and I'd not really say we're particularly close to any group. You'd have to start extrapolating things like, "Oh, we have Anatolian-HG-related ancestry and so do Europeans." or "AEA or something closely related to it is probably the dominant component in the West-African component" and like going into shared more "recent" Paleolithic roots. At that point I'd just say, "We're all humans" and call it a day.

 

[Rayaale]

Cushitic descended and admixed groups in SE Africa like the Iraqw, Tutsis and Maasais. You can model a Tutsi as like ~70% Somali. Quite close to us in the big-scheme of things. Outside of these groups it's really just the groups today who are closest to our SSA and MENA ancestors like Dinkas, Gumuz, Anuaks, Egyptian Copts and various Arabian groups like Yemenis, Naqab Bedouins, Najdis and so forth. Then I guess shared roots and culture with other AA speaking peoples in general on some level to varying degrees.
How about woloyta they seem to cluster to us
Anything beyond that and I'd not really say we're particularly close to any group. You'd have to start extrapolating things like, "Oh, we have Anatolian-HG-related ancestry and so do Europeans." or "AEA or something closely related to it is probably the dominant component in the West-African component" and like going into shared more "recent" Paleolithic roots. At that point I'd just say, "We're all humans" and call it a day.

 

[Shimbiris]

@Rayaale

Seems something went wrong with your quote/message. No reply and I can't even quote you.

 

[Rayaale]

@Rayaale

Seems something went wrong with your quote/message. No reply and I can't even quote you.

The question was the genetics of the wolayta people, they seem to cluster to us

 

[Ashraf]

Tigrayan from Ethiopia & Eritrean Tigrayans are identical. The Muslim pastoralist Tigre can look like a more Caucasoid version of Somalis but still dark, might be because of their Beja ancestry and lower Mota. Highland Eritreans are absolutely identical to their Nothern Ethiopian counterparts.

Mota is omotic right? Do amharas and Tigray and have much higher levels of omotic than us? I thought the only major difference was south Arabian dna and that’s what explained their short stature

 

[Shimbiris]

I think Eritreans are a little different to Ethiopians habasha. I have been working with them alot lately. Around 2016, alot came to the UK. As somalis we are 2nd generation but recent Sudanese and Habesha are 1st generation. What I noticed is that some Eritreans can look like somalis, others look like somali muwalads in yeman, they are usually taller than Ethiopians which is a little strange cause before I thought they were the same. On the other hand, Semtic Ethiopians like amhara all look the same (very unique look). I am sure there is a genetic reason, I am suspecting the Highlands Ethiopians have significant Mota and Omotic influence compared to Eritreans who might have more nubian like or Nilotic DNA elevating their average Height. Look at Alexander Isak from Newcastle United player.

Eritrean Habeshas are Tigrinyas, specifically of the Biher-Tigrinya subgroup of the Tigrinya. They're basically the somewhat more coastal version of their more inland entirely mountain dweller kin in Ethiopia; the Tigray-Tigrinya. And yes, Biher in Tigrinya is a cognate with Ba7ar in Arabic for the sea.

Tigrinyas are a different sort from Amharas. Amharas are more of a meta-ethnicity like Oromos and display some variability in basal admixture levels, though not as extremely as Oromos:

As recently as 100-200 years ago, a good chunk of the Amhara region was still Agaw/Central-Cushitic speaking, some of it even Omotic speaking along the fringes. You will to this day meet Amharas who will recount to you that they are "not Amhara" yet when you inquire about where they are geographically from in Ethiopia you will find they are from the Amhara region and only speak Amharic, though some may tell you a parent or grandparent or great-grandparent speaks or spoke a different language that is now lost. Amharization, like Oromization, is still going on to this day gradually.

From wiki before some Amharas removed it:

According to Gideon P. E. Cohen, writing in 2000, there is some debate about "whether the Amhara can legitimately be regarded as an ethnic group, [...] given their distribution throughout Ethiopia, and the incorporative capacity of the group that has led to the inclusion of individuals from a wide range of ethnic or linguistic backgrounds".[110] Similarly, Tezera Tazebew notes that "the early 1990s was marked by debates, both popular and scholarly, on the (non-)existence of Amhara as a distinct ethnic group", giving the debate between the academic Mesfin Woldemariam and president of the Transitional Government of Ethiopia Meles Zenawi in July 1991 as an example.[111]

This is why they have more variety than Tigrinyas who, in contrast, seem more like a "real ethnicity" with seemingly a common origin for thousands of years out of Ethiosemitic speaking Northern Ethiopia/Eritrea where the Proto-Ethiosemitic (PES) people seem to have mostly concentrated. @Garaad Awal is correct that there's not really any known difference genetically between TIgray-Tigrinyas and Biher-Tigrinyas, the divide is entirely political and recent historical; same ethnic group.

What you've seen is probably not just a difference between Amharas and Tigrinyas, though. A lot of highlanders in general speak Amharic practically like a first language and may seem "Amhara" to you when their true roots are Gurage, Oromo, Sidamo or whatever else. Comparing highland Ethiopia in general with its greater variety in Cushitic, Arabian and Omotic related ancestries to a subset of Tigrinyas in Eritrea is obviously gonna throw you off.

Also, some Eritreans you're seeing may not be Tigrinyas but Tigres. Tigres are a different ethnic group who speak a language closely related to Tigrinyas. They live more entirely along the coast and along some of the islands off Eritrea's coast. They were historically lowland agro-pastoralists like the Beja, Saho, Afars and Somalis and their language has a Beja rather than Agaw substratum. Basically Ethiosemitized coastal Cushites rather than highland agriculturalist Cushites. The few I've seen tested seem a little more MENA than Tigrinyas which tracks with how they are geographically closer to Yemen and since most Tigres can be Muslims rather than Christians as well they do sometimes maybe mix with the recent Banu Rashid migrants from the Hejaz so those might be some of the few you see who look like muwalads.

 

[Rayaale]

Another question are other horners the same as us. Except for south Arabian DNA, do they have the same origin story as us and is there admixture the same excluding south Arabian . E.g tigray. Also why are Eritreans taller than Ethiopians? ( random question)

I’ve noticed that as well when I was in Uganda, Eritreans are taller than Ethiopians and some of them look very Somali

 

[Ashraf]

I’ve noticed that as well when I was in Uganda, Eritreans are taller than Ethiopians and some of them look very Somali

Yeah exactly right I thought the same thing, I guess it depends on the ethnic group in Eritrea as @Shimbiris explained