Learn what "Ta'wil" means first and Imam Shaf'i has written books where he explains his creed and Imam ibn Hanbal was his student
Which schools of Aqeedah do you subscribe too?
- Thread starter Garaad Awal
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you accept the tawil of ibn abbas written in tafsir al tabari.
We affirm any thing mentioned but without likening Allah to his creation. It's not only the Istiwa.
The Qur'anic verses have their interpretations. It's not a free for all where people who don't know the rules of fusha (including me btw) bring them out and say look it says X with their English translation. We have very authoritative tafsirs and explanations if you read those or study a classical text on Aqaaid these verses and similar hadiths will be easy for you to comprehend.What is your interpretation of the verses and hadiths that imply Allah is above the heavens on the throne? Ayah al kursi??? Al mulk???Surah al araaf???
“Indeed, your Lord is Allāh, who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne.”
“His throne doth extend over the heavens and on earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them, For He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).”
“"Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven, will not cause the earth to sink with you …?"
As I have stated many times, we affirm Istiwa. We only say it isn't physical that's it. What's so wrong about saying it isn't physical? Is there an Islamic principle that says it is??
Istiwa by the way in classical Arabic has at least 20 possible meanings. This is the crux of the issue most Salafis complaining here that I am a Jahmi don't even know what the words actually mean they just jumped with the most literal one possible.
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Did Ibn Abbas and Tabari deny the sifaat ?
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they did taweel on the word "shin". they did not deny it.
I know Arabic and the Quran is very clear and I will ask you again when you pray and do the sajoot what are we supposed to say in that position?
You don't know grammar dude I'm not trying to be rude.
If you had a semblance of Arabic, this whole discussion would never have happened.
There is nothing more to discuss i have exhausted every possible means of explaining this truth. If you don't want to take it, it's your business. Just ask yourself when you are alone and there is no one to see if you 'lost the debate' if you are arguing because you genuinely want the truth and will accept it even if it's your opponent that's on the truth or to 'win the argument'.
I am a layman. I just know surface level stuff brother. I didnt even know shaficis study ashari writings
It is impossible to study Islam without relying on the 'deviant Ash'aris' practically all past ulema are 'Ashari if you are Maliki or Shafi'i and if you are Hanafi, the Ahnaf are on the school of Imam Maturidi.
This is another reason why calling them deviant is so laughable they're asking to throw out 1400 years of learning
Werent the first 3 generations of Muslims part of the salaf?
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being a salafi and hanbali is understandable. but salafis study from tafsir al jalalayn.
the shafi madhab had a large number of ashari scholars who were influential in the madhab. like abu ishaq al shirazi
Can I be shafici and still agree more with the salafi viewpoint?
Yes and they were upon the same as the Imams 'Ashari and Maturidi.
Salafi polemicists try to pretend these Imams were on something different but they weren't and you can see it is only a crystallisation of what you would find amongst the Sahaba themselves.
The more philosophical formalised approach of the Imams didn't exist at the time of the Sahaba. This is true.
The Imams were responding to a changed environment where the vast Islamic expansion had brought the Muslims into contact with a lot of new ideas and peoples including the challenges of the philosophers.
The Aqaa'id texts they composed were a DEFENSE of our theology and religion and a thorough rebuttal of their opponents.
It is standard for Salafis now to say that any new development is a Bid'ah and is therefore bad. But this is their understanding and not that of the Imams and Salaf. Otherwise, we would have to get rid of a lot of things, like gathering hadiths in books, or adding tashkeel to the Qur'an. These are all innovations but good ones that have a root or asal in the Shari'ah.
قال الشيخ ابن عثيمين رحمه الله: "يحتمل أن يراد بذلك ساق الله، ويحتمل أن يراد بالساق الشدة، وقد قال السلف بهذين القولين"
Sheikh Ibn Uthaymeen, may God have mercy on him, said: “It is possible that what is meant by this is the leg of God, and it is possible that what is meant by the leg is hardship, and the salaf said these two sayings.”
You need to stop talking about the Aqeeda since you're jaahil who never read anything about the Salafs and their followers
More good deeds for me thank you dude
@Mudug_gyal Some assorted ahadith foretelling the Ash'ari school and praising them.
The Prophet ﷺ praised the Ash`aris in numerous narrations concerning which al-Qushayri said that they bore not only the external meaning of the tribe of the Companion Abu Musa al-Ash`ari, but also the additional meaning of the followers of his descendent Abu al-Hasan al-Ash`ari, meaning the Ash`ari school. Among these narrations:
The Prophet ﷺ praised the Ash`aris in numerous narrations concerning which al-Qushayri said that they bore not only the external meaning of the tribe of the Companion Abu Musa al-Ash`ari, but also the additional meaning of the followers of his descendent Abu al-Hasan al-Ash`ari, meaning the Ash`ari school. Among these narrations:
- “O you who believe! Whoever among you turns back from his Religion, know that in his stead Allah will bring a people whom He loves and who love Him, humble toward believers, stern toward disbelievers, striving in the way of Allah, and fearing not the blame of any blamer. Such is the grace of Allah which He gives to whom He will. Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing.” (5:54) When Allah revealed this verse, the Prophet ﷺ pointed to Abu Musa al-Ash`ari and said: “They are that man’s People.”[39]
- Imam Abu al-Qasim al-Qushayri said: “Therefore, the followers of Abu al-Hasan al-Ash`ari are also among his [Abu Musa’s] People. For in every place that a people are affiliated to a Prophet, what is meant is the followers of that Prophet.”[40]
- This is also the position of Ibn `Asakir, al-Bayhaqi, al-Subki, and others of the Ash`ari school.[41]
- “‘Tomorrow shall come to you a people more sensitive in their hearts towards Islam than you.’ Then the Ash`aris came, among them Abu Musa al-Ash`ari. As they approached Madina they sang poetry, saying: ‘Tomorrow we meet our beloved ones, Muhammad and his group!’ When they arrived they began to shake hands with the people, and they were the first to innovate hand-shaking.”[42]
- “The people of Yemen have come to you, most sensitive in their souls, softest of hearts! Belief is from Yemen, wisdom is from Yemen! Pride and arrogance are found among the camel-owners; tranquility and dignity among the sheep-owners.”[43]
- “I went in to see the Prophet after tying my camel at the gate. People from the Banu Tamim came in to see him. He said: ‘Accept the glad tidings, O Banu Tamim!’ They said: ‘You gave us glad tidings; now give us something tangible.’ This exchange took place twice. Then some from the people of Yemen came in to see him. He said: ‘Accept the glad tidings, O people of Yemen! for the Banu Tamim did not accept them.’ They said: ‘We accept, O Messenger of Allah!’ Then they said: ‘We came to ask you of this Great Matter.’ He said: ‘Allah was when nothing was other than Him. His Throne stood over the water. He wrote all things in the Remembrance. He created the heavens and the earth.’ Then someone called out: ‘Your camel has fled, O Ibn al-Husayn!’ I darted out and between me and my camel I could see a mirage. By Allah! How I wish that I had left it alone.”[44]
- Al-Subki said: “Our scholars have said that the Prophet ﷺ did not speak to anyone of the foundations of the Religion (usul al-deen) in such a way as he has spoken to the Ash`aris in this hadith.”[45]
- “They [the Ash`aris] are part of me and I am part of them.”[46]
- “The Ash`aris among people are like a precious parcel containing musk.”[47]
[39] Narrated from `Iyad by Ibn Abi Shayba and al-Hakim who said it is saheeh by Muslim’s criterion, and by al-Tabarani with a sound chain as stated by al-Haythami. [40] As quoted in al-Qurtubi’s Tafsir (verse 5:54).
[41] As cited in Tabyin Kadhib al-Muftari and Tabaqat al-Shafi`iyya al-Kubra (3:362-363).
[42] Hadith of the Prophet ﷺ narrated from Anas ibn Malik with a sound (sahih) chain by Ahmad in his Musnad.
[43] Hadith of the Prophet ﷺ narrated from Abu Hurayra by Bukhari and Muslim in their Sahihs.
[44] Hadith of the Prophet ﷺ narrated from `Imran ibn Husayn by Bukhari in his Sahih.
[45] Al-Subki, Tabaqat al-Shafi`iyya al-Kubra (3:364).
[46] Hadith of the Prophet ﷺ narrated from Abu Musa al-Ash`ari by Bukhari and Muslim.
[47] Hadith of the Prophet ﷺ narrated from Hasan al-Basri in the mode of mursal (missing the Companion link) by Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri in Ibn Sa`d’s Tabaqat. Among those who explained the Ash`aris mentioned in the hadith to include reference to latter-day Ash`aris are Imam Abu al-Qasim al-Qushayri, al-Subki, and Ibn `Asakir.
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Yes lol
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ofcourse. the difference is youll probably need to compromise on the typical salafi stance of being anti ashari.
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