Woman ignored by men as she drowns in a pool

[Gacmeey]

I mean I may have misunderstood her, I was of the impression she was invoking ancient norms of chivalry. and I believe she was implicitly. if you listen to her commentary, I think she is implying that men should adhere to traditionalist chivalry-type norms of they should be suddenly ready to leap to the aid of random unknown women.

I just listened to her and I lol’ed hard. She wants the men to fulfill their patriarchal duty then says “we cannot win under patriarchy”.Truly a lost society

 

[empressjamila]

Idk if it’s just the attractiveness aspect (although that may have played a role), but it seems like people are just really callous and selfish these days. They’re in their own world and they don’t care about anyone else.

There was a viral video of a man who got stabbed in a Starbucks and fell to the ground bleeding out. Another man was sitting not far away, watching this all unfold, and doesn’t even call for help. Just sits, watches and keeps sipping his coffee.

These are scary times to be living in walahi. You better hope nothing happens to you while you’re out in public around strangers, bc chances are, no one will come to help you.

 

[Gacmeey]

Idk if it’s just the attractiveness aspect (although that may have played a role), but it seems like people are just really callous and uncaring these days.

There was a viral video of a man who got stabbed in a Starbucks and fell to the ground bleeding out. Another man was sitting not far away, watching this all unfold, and doesn’t even call for help. Just sits, watches and keeps sipping his coffee

Scary times to be living in walahi. You better hope nothing happens to you while you’re out in public around strangers, bc chances are, no one will come to help you

Tbh why would you? I’m not superman, if someone gets stabbed and I don’t have a gun, I’m running the other way. No point in both of us dying

 

[empressjamila]

Tbh why would you? I’m not superman, if someone gets stabbed and I don’t have a gun, I’m running the other way. No point in both of us dying

I’m not saying he should have jumped in and fought the attacker, but call 911 or something, at least

Not just sit and sip your drink, like you’re at home watching Netflix

 

[Gacmeey]

I’m not saying he needs to jump in and fight the attacker, but call 911 or something, at least

Not just sit and sip your drink, like you’re at home watching Netflix

Sometimes you don’t want to react to the actions of crazies cause then you open up a possibility for interaction. Just act like your part time of the environment and maybe they won’t notice you

 

[Unicorn]

I cannot believe tht lawyer fixed her mouth to say it wasnt drowning but cardic arrest. Gee, how do u think she got cardic arrest. That video is terrifying. They watched her die and kept walking. this almost happened to me when i was 7 but two women took me out of the pool idk when they took me out.

 

[Do]

what are you talking about? what post have I talked about women's dress? that is extremely rare if you've found a post where I talk about that topic.

You are a Muslim brother, not just a practicing Muslim but a by-the-book Salafi. It's perfectly reasonable for me to assume that you believe in full proper hijab as it's a commandment of Allah. No need for me to search for a specific post over your years on SomaliSpot as it's a given.

I bought up that example to highlight a flaw in your cruelly dismissive reasoning. Read it again slowly.

anyways, what is realism and what is right are separate topics. I'm not some monster opposed to helping random people but I didn't go into morality discussion because it is a very long and complicated discussion involving different variables based on the individual situation, not because I'm opposed to morality.

No, they are separated but inherently intertwined. You can believe in right and wrong and try your absolute best to follow through with those ideals while being conscious of what is reasonable within a certain timeframe and/or resources at your disposal.

In this case, you wrote off her expectation of receiving help from one of many bystanders as unrealistic because of the possibility that they'd ignore her, even though it's just as reasonable expectation for one to expect help from a stranger as it is to expect being left to fend for yourself.

Most people are decent and well-intentioned, despite the unfortunate decrease in empathy amongst younger people nowadays, so it's understandable on her end to expect someone to try save her, especially if she falls under that decent majority who would have done the same, had the roles been reversed.

I think we should have realistic expectations of others. I don't expect random strangers to help me if I'm drowning. That doesn't mean I don't believe in following ideals. We can be warm-hearted idealists but also look at things in a cold pragmatic way. And I think there should be both. Idealism without pragmatism- how will it succeed? And pragmatism without beliefs or ideals.... I can't imagine it being anything other than evil.

I share a similarly pragmatic outlook, but you went ahead and applied the balance between realism and idealism incorrectly here.

 

[Nin123]

This is crazy. She was actively struggling, I just don't understand why no one helped at all. Especially the man that walked right next to her

It is dangerously for man to even try saving her without accused of being perverted individual. Where was the women at? Why couldn’t they try to save her

 

[Omar del Sur]

You are a Muslim brother, not just a practicing Muslim but a by-the-book Salafi. It's perfectly reasonable for me to assume that you believe in full proper hijab as it's a commandment of Allah. No need for me to search for a specific post over your years on SomaliSpot as it's a given.

I bought up that example to highlight a flaw in your cruelly dismissive reasoning. Read it again slowly.

the flaw is in your analogy.

yes, I do believe in hijab, that's true. but because I am suspicious of random strangers therefore it would be wrong if I was in favor of women wearing hijab? there is a weakness in your analogy.

No, they are separated but inherently intertwined. You can believe in right and wrong and try your absolute best to follow through with those ideals while being conscious of what is reasonable within a certain timeframe and/or resources at your disposal.

Am I some Nieztschean who wants to separate morality from action? If I talked about the Islamic moral aspect of what to do in the case of a stranger needing help, that would require a very long post. it's an in-depth topic.

In this case, you wrote off her expectation of receiving help from one of many bystanders as unrealistic because of the possibility that they'd ignore her

her? the drowning woman? I haven't said anything about her thoughts or expectations.

by "expect" I mean rely on, I mean count on, I mean depend on. if by "expect" is meant "hope for", sure let us hope that random strangers are benevolent. but I don't count on it.

Most people are decent and well-intentioned,

that is not what the Quran says about the majority. and if the majority are such great people why are they going to burn in hell? there must be something seriously wrong with them given that being the case.

so it's understandable on her end to expect someone to try save her, especially if she falls under that decent majority who would have done the same, had the roles been reversed.

to save her? I was responding to the tiktok user's commentary, not to the woman who drowned. the tiktok user wasn't drowning and the woman who... was deceased... I have no idea what her thoughts and expectations were.

also your "decent majority" concept is a feature of liberal ideology and is not from Islam. (and I'm not making this up- many people have talked about how "most people are good" is part of liberal ideology)

edit: here is chatgpt talking about what I mentioned so no one can say I'm making things up: "Within liberal ideology, there is a belief that most people are inherently good. Liberals tend to have faith in the goodness of human nature, emphasizing compassion, empathy, and a desire for social justice. This belief is rooted in the idea that individuals are capable of making ethical and moral decisions, and that society as a whole benefits from an environment of trust and cooperation."

myself I don't believe in that Disney film "faith in humanity" stuff. that's some stuff people just made up, it is not from Islam and I don't think Christians thought like that historically either. however I do have a good opinion of random Muslims. but of random kaffirs? no way. they are the worst of creation. anyways, I don't think that "most people are good" doctrine of liberalism is anywhere near as innocent as it's presented to be. the Quran warns us against the majority and this ideology from kaffirs tries to push us in the opposite direction. I believe it's a sinister ideology larping as being innocent. no truly pure and innocent doctrine will lead us in the opposite direction of the Quran.

edit:

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[Lightshow]

The only explanation I have is that the other pool goers did not realise she was drowning and assumed she was doing exercises.

My reasoning for this is that she did not seem to be struggling but floating and doing raises. She might have been semi conscious and struggling in a quiet manner.

However it is difficult to tell from the footage. As we do not have audio or immediate context of the environment. If indeed she clearly was drowning and those guys ignored it, then there is no excuse, and they are evil.

 

[Periplus]

for whoever is outraged by this post

first off you should hear what I'm responding to. the tiktok user is basically bashing men on the basis that men are supposedly not concerned enough about protecting random women and she's basically saying that men should protect women, and that they should be protecting random women they don't know.

this is just not a realistic expectation. people can get mad all they want but it's true. and I'm not talking about what's right or wrong, I'm talking about realistic.

and

1- is it not traditional and patriarchal to have this concept that random men everywhere should be walking around on the alert to help and protect random women??? this is PATRIARCHY. this promotes the idea that there is a difference between men and women!

that tiktok user is advocating patriarchyism. but here we are in the current year, the shills for patriarchy attacking me because I identified and called out the patriarchy.

I think if the video was just women walking past, there would be outrage directed at women for not assisting the drowning woman.

Regardless of whether they’re unmarried or not, or our gender, if someone is dying, we should assist them.

People should also be criticised for not assisting someone who’s life is in danger for something so easily preventable as drowning.

 

[Abdirazaq]

Instead of turning this into a stupid gender war, the questions and statements made should be:

1. Where was the lifeguard? This is literally their job.

2. Did people realize this women was struggling for dear life? A lot of young children easily pass away in swimming pools as they’re small and barely anyone can see them drowning.

3. You’re actually not meant to help someone who’s struggling in a swimming situation if you’re not an expert (lifeguard). This is due to people panicking and using you as a step to breathe, resulting in two deaths instead of one.

The best course of action is looking for a lifeguard to deal with the situation.

Im extremely disappointed in people here making countless assumptions and using this unfortunate situation to push their particular agendas.

 

[Dharbash]

This is crazy. She was actively struggling, I just don't understand why no one helped at all. Especially the man that walked right next to her

I remember seeing this on twitter, I think she had a heart attack or some kind of medical issue and just floated around, and because she didn’t make any noise people assumed she was fine. I can see why no one would help, they won’t perceive her to be in any danger at all if she’s not making any active sounds/movements

 

[Omar del Sur]

I think if the video was just women walking past, there would be outrage directed at women for not assisting the drowning woman.

Regardless of whether they’re unmarried or not, or our gender, if someone is dying, we should assist them.

People should also be criticised for not assisting someone who’s life is in danger for something so easily preventable as drowning.

I was not responding to the video, I was responding to the tiktok user's commentary. I think people are reading my post without having heard what I was replying to. I was responding to the tiktoker's promotion of this ancient traditionalist chivalry type mindset that she was basically promoting that men should have.

also I haven't talked about whether people should or should not do this or that... I have simply talked about that we can't trust random strangers to have our backs. I'm sure you don't trust random strangers to have your back and I don't think anyone posting in this thread does.

 

[Periplus]

I was not responding to the video, I was responding to the tiktok user's commentary. I think people are reading my post without having heard what I was replying to. I was responding to the tiktoker's promotion of this ancient traditionalist chivalry type mindset that she was basically promoting that men should have.

My point is that if the people surrounding that drowning were women, that same TikToker would criticise women for not standing up for women.

People will always have something to complain about and to fit it in their narrow mindset.

We are all victims our biases.

 

[Omar del Sur]

My point is that if the people surrounding that drowning were women, that same TikToker would criticise women for not standing up for women.

I don't think so, I think that tiktoker specifically has an anti-man thing and I would assume her tiktok probably contains many videos where she is attacking men in general. Some type who rants about patriarchy and rants against men.... they won't necessary rant against women in the same way if they see women misbehaving.

People will always have something to complain about and to fit it in their narrow mindset.

yes, this is definitely something people do.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Im extremely disappointed in people here making countless assumptions and using this unfortunate situation to push their particular agendas.

if you mean me, which I am not saying you did... I just want to mention- my posts here were responding to the tiktoker's commentary and it was the tiktoker who made it a gender thing... I was simply responding to them

 

[Do]

the flaw is in your analogy.

yes, I do believe in hijab, that's true. but because I am suspicious of random strangers therefore it would be wrong if I was in favor of women wearing hijab? there is a weakness in your analogy.

My analogy isn't flawed at all. You misunderstood it and refuted your misconstrued perception of it, not what I actually wrote.

Am I some Nieztschean who wants to separate morality from action? If I talked about the Islamic moral aspect of what to do in the case of a stranger needing help, that would require a very long post. it's an in-depth topic.

I wouldn't mind reading your full thoughts on the matter, Omar, and I'm sure it will help clear up any misunderstandings from all the others who gave you thumbs down due to the frankly cruel way you articulated your initial point.

her? the drowning woman? I haven't said anything about her thoughts or expectations.

by "expect" I mean rely on, I mean count on, I mean depend on. if by "expect" is meant "hope for", sure let us hope that random strangers are benevolent. but I don't count on it.

It's an entirely reasonable expectation to assume one person out of many will be kind enough to directly help or call for a lifeguard more realistically, than all of them being apathetic at best or malovalent at worst.

All it takes for a stranger to be saved from drowning is a single person to alert a lifeguard immediately as soon as they notice. But that's too much for one to expect in your view, huh?

that is not what the Quran says about the majority. and if the majority are such great people why are they going to burn in hell? there must be something seriously wrong with them given that being the case.

You have misunderstood me.

I said decent and well-intentioned. Bare minimum decency and courtesy for others isn't enough to admit a human into Jannah for all eternity. They would need to submit to Allah (SWT) and follow his commands, first and foremost (i.e. become Muslim).

But bare minimum decency is enough to propel someone to help a stranger, given that it isn't overly burdensome to do so (which it wouldn't, calling a lifeguard takes 30 seconds at the very most).

As for well-intentioned, it ties in neatly for most living in liberal democracies to not do harm unto others and/or prevent harm if they see it (i.e. harm principle) so the majority's unwillingness to conform to the commandments of Allah (SWT) and land in Jahannam doesn't negate the chances of them saving a stranger's life.

to save her? I was responding to the tiktok user's commentary, not to the woman who drowned. the tiktok user wasn't drowning and the woman who... was deceased... I have no idea what her thoughts and expectations were.

Fair enough.

also your "decent majority" concept is a feature of liberal ideology and is not from Islam. (and I'm not making this up- many people have talked about how "most people are good" is part of liberal ideology)

edit: here is chatgpt talking about what I mentioned so no one can say I'm making things up: "Within liberal ideology, there is a belief that most people are inherently good. Liberals tend to have faith in the goodness of human nature, emphasizing compassion, empathy, and a desire for social justice. This belief is rooted in the idea that individuals are capable of making ethical and moral decisions, and that society as a whole benefits from an environment of trust and cooperation."

myself I don't believe in that Disney film "faith in humanity" stuff. that's some stuff people just made up, it is not from Islam and I don't think Christians thought like that historically either. however I do have a good opinion of random Muslims. but of random kaffirs? no way. they are the worst of creation. anyways, I don't think that "most people are good" doctrine of liberalism is anywhere near as innocent as it's presented to be. the Quran warns us against the majority and this ideology from kaffirs tries to push us in the opposite direction. I believe it's a sinister ideology larping as being innocent. no truly pure and innocent doctrine will lead us in the opposite direction of the Quran.

edit:

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Interesting, thanks for sharing this snippet from ChatGPT and your thoughts on human nature being naturally closer to evil than good, albeit slightly in that direction.

 

[Cartan Boos]

what kinda evil goes by while she was struggling

 

[Omar del Sur]

My analogy isn't flawed at all. You misunderstood it and refuted your misconstrued perception of it, not what I actually wrote.

The situations are two

1- Should we advocate for following Islamic commands like hijab?

2- Should we trust random strangers to be benevolent?

Those are two way different situations and the answer isn't necessarily shared between them. I don't trust random strangers to be benevolent and I also think we should promote following Islam. There's nothing contradictory about this. You don't trust random strangers, right? And you also believe we should follow Islam's commands, yes? There is no contradiction there.

Realistically, everyone is going to sin but enjoining good and forbidding the evil is worth it. It is very realistic that you may get results.

Whereas... should I trust this random stranger on this dark street at night? That's a way different and not parallel question. It's a weak analogy.

I wouldn't mind reading your full thoughts on the matter, Omar, and I'm sure it will help clear up any misunderstandings from all the others who gave you thumbs down due to the frankly cruel way you articulated your initial point.

I'm a blunt person and I talk in a blunt way. I don't think I'm being cruel if I said someone died rather than "unalived". I said in a blunt way about how you can't trust strangers to help you, someone else said it in a much softer way. It's true whether I say it in a blunt way or someone else says it in a softer gentler way.

Also, I don't care if a thousand people give me thumbs down. I'm going to be judged by Allah, I don't what people think.

And honestly, I think my post was very warm-hearted and compassionate because I am genuinely worried about what's going to happen with this massive incoming wave of spinsters. many ppl are simply not concerned but the potential suffering is real.

It's an entirely reasonable expectation to assume one person out of many will be kind enough to directly help or call for a lifeguard more realistically, than all of them being apathetic at best or malovalent at worst.

if you expect things, you expect things. humans act more and more like animals and it gets worse every day as they become more irreligious and godless. I don't expect goodness from random strangers and nothing in Islam tells me to have such a mindset- at least not as far as kaffirs.

people are increasingly more and more like animals and we can expect more of this if present trends continue.

All it takes for a stranger to be saved from drowning is a single person to alert a lifeguard immediately as soon as they notice. But that's too much for one to expect in your view, huh?

Exactly! You should not expect benevolence from random strangers. There was a famous incident a long time ago... a young man was thrown into a well by his brothers. And what happened? People passed by and sold him into slavery!

And then there were others incidents. People were sent by Allah to guide their people. They were prophets and they were killed by the people they were trying to help!

If you have a high opinion of people, I think give it more time and that will change.

I said decent and well-intentioned. Bare minimum decency and courtesy for others isn't enough to admit a human into Jannah for all eternity. They would need to submit to Allah (SWT) and follow his commands, first and foremost (i.e. become Muslim).

But bare minimum decency is enough to propel someone to help a stranger, given that it isn't overly burdensome to do so (which it wouldn't, calling a lifeguard takes 30 seconds at the very most).

The kaffirs are the worst of creation. If you want to expect decency from them... I think your expectations are misplaced.

As for well-intentioned, it ties in neatly for most living in liberal democracies to not do harm unto others and/or prevent harm if they see it (i.e. harm principle) so the majority's unwillingness to conform to the commandments of Allah (SWT) and land in Jahannam doesn't negate the chances of them saving a stranger's life.

absolutely their kufr makes them liable to fall short in other areas of doing what's right. you shouldn't think too highly of kaffirs.

Interesting, thanks for sharing this snippet from ChatGPT and your thoughts on human nature being naturally closer to evil than good, albeit slightly in that direction.

I have not said I consider human nature closer to evil than good. People are born upon the fitrah which is good but then their envirinment leads them astray. I do think most people are evil but I don't believe they were born that way.