Zayli grave in mecca from the 9th century

[Midas]

I have quite a few Madhiban friends, and he told me they call Somalis in the north Aji, from my understanding, Aji had two sons, Dir and Digale, the latter had a daughter called Dombira who married Abdirahman bin Isma'il al-Jabarti around 10/11th centuries, he was a Somali who got educated across the red sea and returned, both Darod and Dir claim Aqil ibn Abi Talib, Walashma dynasty also claims this.

Another title that appeared after the fall of Adal was Ughaz, "ul" and "gaas," meaning "the stick of the warrior’s chief, shared amongst Dir(Gadabuursi, Isse), Darood(Ogaden), and Hawiye(Hawadle). This title seems to be connected to after the collapse of Adal and is usually carried by those who had a connection to Harar or inhabited the Sr around the 16th century.

This makes sense since tmcra of Dir Aji Irir is around 1000-800 years, linking T Isaaq, Gadabuursi and Cisse to one common ancestor, who split off from Surre around 1,600 ybp around Sanaag; some branches remained around the area.

There are many oral stories of Dir fighting Gallo(basically Somalis who didn't accept Islam) in northern Somalia and into the SR. Historically we have always inhabited the north, several historical towns across the region are named after Dir Saints, Awdal during the Adal sultanate were thriving, they found about fourteen sites in the vicinity of Borama alone be it the collapse of trade or raids those towns fell and never got revived.

The ul gaas thing sounds intresting Can you tell me where I can find the source ?

 

[NidarNidar]

The ul gaas thing sounds intresting Can you tell me where I can find the source ?

Toponymy on the Periphery

"In Toponymy on the Periphery, Julien Charles Cooper conducts a study of the rich geographies preserved in Egyptian texts relating to the desert regions east of Egypt. These regions, filled with mines, quarries, nomadic camps, and harbours are often considered as an unimportant hinterland of the...

books.google.ie

Encyclopaedia Aethiopica: O-X

The first three volumes of the Encyclopaedia Aethiopica (vol. 1: A-C, 2003; vol. 2: D-Ha, 2005; vol. 3: He-O, 2007) are now being followed by volume 4, which includes 970 articles ranging alphabetically from O to W. The volume, written in English, comprises ca. 1150 pages and was compiled in...

books.google.ie

Le verdict de l'arbre

books.google.ie

 

[Idilinaa]

The idea that Somalis were purely an oral society originates from colonialists who were denied access to Somali historical sources. European travelers frequently complained about this, resorting to underhanded tactics and deception to gain even partial access.

The Abaan system (which regulated entry into Somali territories) further frustrated them, leading them to wrongly conclude that Somalia was isolated from the world. This, despite Somalis being deeply engaged in trade and global networks for centuries.

This is why Richard Burton’s book is titled "First Footsteps in East Africa" because previous European explorers failed to enter Somali lands. They sent letters to various sultans, including the Emir of Harar, but were consistently rejected. Burton and Speke only succeeded by disguising themselves as Arab merchants and learning fluent Arabic, they used it enter illegally.

Since they couldn't access real historical records, they relied on gossip and hearsay from uninformed or random locals. This resulted in misinterpretations, hearsay, and outright fabrications in their writings, which later became the foundation of flawed Western/colonial narratives about Somalia that many scholars unknowingly built upon.

Imma further elaborate using examples from Hornaristocrats thread:


The fabrication of a distinct ''Harari" ethnicity originated mostly with him btw and this is after he was told that they were Adare people, he misrepresented this information. The name was not a reference to the city, Somalis never referred to Harar as “Adari” but used this name for a migrant community originally from the East Gurage-Hadiya region. Burton either misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented this information transmitted to him

(Note: Harari was anyone who was citizen of the city of Harar btw.)

(You can look through the twitter thread for more on the Adare people and their documented history.)

When you compare Richard Burton to the French explorer Rochet d'Héricourt, who attempted to enter Harar through legal and formal means, he documented that the city belonged to Somalis , unlike Richard Burton, who gained access through deception & trickery consequently distorted this reality. His sources about the city came through official and formal channels that held the consistent info that the people of Harar was Somalis and the city belonged to them.

Explaining the why he is more reliable as a source the fact it lies in the circumstances surrounding their access to Harar and who they took their information from:

It is also worth pointing out that his writings were extremely biased, because he was a foreigner who was trying to poke his nose where he shouldn't he ended up being chased away a couple of times by Somalis and those negative interactions would lead him to fabricate negative depictions and narratives.
His fabrications were later adopted by Western academics, further cementing the distorted colonial view of Somali history.

 

[Midas]

Imma further elaborate using examples from Hornaristocrats thread:


The fabrication of a distinct ''Harari" ethnicity originated mostly with him btw and this is after he was told that they were Adare people, he misrepresented this information. The name was not a reference to the city, Somalis never referred to Harar as “Adari” but used this name for a migrant community originally from the East Gurage-Hadiya region. Burton either misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented this information transmitted to him

(Note: Harari was anyone who was citizen of the city of Harar btw.)
View attachment 358014
(You can look through the twitter thread for more on the Adare people and their documented history.)

When you compare Richard Burton to the French explorer Rochet d'Héricourt, who attempted to enter Harar through legal and formal means, he documented that the city belonged to Somalis , unlike Richard Burton, who gained access through deception & trickery consequently distorted this reality. His sources about the city came through official and formal channels that held the consistent info that the people of Harar was Somalis and the city belonged to them.
View attachment 358018
View attachment 358019

Explaining the why he is more reliable as a source the fact it lies in the circumstances surrounding their access to Harar and who they took their information from:
View attachment 358006

It also worth pointing out that his writings were extremely biased, because he was a foreigner who was trying to poke his nose where he shouldn't he ended up being chased away a couple of times by Somalis and those negative interactions would lead him fabricate negative depictions and narratives.
His fabrications were later adopted by Western academics, further cementing the distorted colonial view of Somali history.

View attachment 358011
View attachment 358012
View attachment 358013

Non somalis basically had zero acess to most of Somalia. Even after colonization outisde of guided hunting trips there was basically zero contact. This applied Even more to the wadaads and elders who would have had the knwoldege they were looking for.

There's an anectodote I.m Lewis writes about how some somali elder he first meets in the 60s was extremely suspicious of him since he was going around asking questions about somali society and culture. It was to the point that he though this elder might attack him . Decades later he meets him again in the 80s and know the elder copied what i.m lewis did and had been gathering the oral history and poems of the darawiish.

Imagine how much less acess they had to somali ulema who kept manuscripts.

 

[Shimbiris]

Imma further elaborate using examples from Hornaristocrats thread:


The fabrication of a distinct ''Harari" ethnicity originated mostly with him btw and this is after he was told that they were Adare people, he misrepresented this information. The name was not a reference to the city, Somalis never referred to Harar as “Adari” but used this name for a migrant community originally from the East Gurage-Hadiya region. Burton either misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented this information transmitted to him

(Note: Harari was anyone who was citizen of the city of Harar btw.)
View attachment 358014
(You can look through the twitter thread for more on the Adare people and their documented history.)

When you compare Richard Burton to the French explorer Rochet d'Héricourt, who attempted to enter Harar through legal and formal means, he documented that the city belonged to Somalis , unlike Richard Burton, who gained access through deception & trickery consequently distorted this reality. His sources about the city came through official and formal channels that held the consistent info that the people of Harar was Somalis and the city belonged to them.
View attachment 358018
View attachment 358019

Explaining the why he is more reliable as a source the fact it lies in the circumstances surrounding their access to Harar and who they took their information from:
View attachment 358006

It is also worth pointing out that his writings were extremely biased, because he was a foreigner who was trying to poke his nose where he shouldn't he ended up being chased away a couple of times by Somalis and those negative interactions would lead him to fabricate negative depictions and narratives.
His fabrications were later adopted by Western academics, further cementing the distorted colonial view of Somali history.

View attachment 358011
View attachment 358012
View attachment 358013

To be honest, walaal, Burton doesn’t really distort much. It’s mostly these people interpreting him through their own agendas who end up twisting things. All Burton really says about Harar is that the Hararis make up 1/3rd of the town’s population and, to be honest, while he does speak of the Emir as "their Emir" he never actually calls the Emir "Harari".

In fact, if he had some deep-seated agenda against Somalis, he’d be pretty strange to state things like: the Emir’s principal wife is a Somali woman from the Bartire; the Amir's family has maintained a marriage pact like this with the Bartire for generations; Shaykh Jami of this same tribe is practically the Amir's most influential minister; Harar is wholly at the mercy of whoever controls Berbera or Saylac—both of which he explicitly says are in Somali hands; and that Somalis, both settled and "Bedouin who come and go", make up 2/3rds of the town’s population. Hardly the work of someone trying to discredit Somalis.

Just, as you say, someone who isn't fully clued in because he got in through lies and deception and it was frankly a short visit.

 

[Riftvalley]

I'm reminded of an old saying my grandmother used to impart to me about the peopling of the north, "Dadka waa Dir iyo Darood" (The People are Dir and Darood). Even as a kid I found that strange because there's a huge other tribe right in the middle of the two that isn't mentioned in this saying.

Then it began to maybe add up with all the myths around reer Isaaq being a Dir off-shoot and began to be even more trippy when it looked like Isaaqs are a little split down the middle be E-Z813 and T-L208 whereas Hartis look mostly E-Z813. Makes me suspect the deepest real historical "schism" in the north was between the local Z813 Cushites (Hartis and 1/2 Isaaq paternal line) and the South Arabian T-L208 pastoralists (Dir and 1/2 Isaaq paternal line) who maybe brought camel pastoralism and were assimilated over-time and that's what the saying is referring to.

Imma further elaborate using examples from Hornaristocrats thread:


The fabrication of a distinct ''Harari" ethnicity originated mostly with him btw and this is after he was told that they were Adare people, he misrepresented this information. The name was not a reference to the city, Somalis never referred to Harar as “Adari” but used this name for a migrant community originally from the East Gurage-Hadiya region. Burton either misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented this information transmitted to him

(Note: Harari was anyone who was citizen of the city of Harar btw.)
View attachment 358014
(You can look through the twitter thread for more on the Adare people and their documented history.)

When you compare Richard Burton to the French explorer Rochet d'Héricourt, who attempted to enter Harar through legal and formal means, he documented that the city belonged to Somalis , unlike Richard Burton, who gained access through deception & trickery consequently distorted this reality. His sources about the city came through official and formal channels that held the consistent info that the people of Harar was Somalis and the city belonged to them.
View attachment 358018
View attachment 358019

Explaining the why he is more reliable as a source the fact it lies in the circumstances surrounding their access to Harar and who they took their information from:
View attachment 358006

It is also worth pointing out that his writings were extremely biased, because he was a foreigner who was trying to poke his nose where he shouldn't he ended up being chased away a couple of times by Somalis and those negative interactions would lead him to fabricate negative depictions and narratives.
His fabrications were later adopted by Western academics, further cementing the distorted colonial view of Somali history.

View attachment 358011
View attachment 358012
View attachment 358013

You have poems like Jidka Adari loo maro (the path to Adari) by Sayid Muhammad Abdullah Hassan. Adari was Harar and the area around it. Adari was also a type of pot which was said to be made in the “Adari” region and is mentioned in the story of Dhegdheer. Somalis also used the word to describe coriander seeds or the tree it stems from. There is a Somali phrase which references Dameeraha Adari (Donkeys from Adari). Adari might have meant different things in different contexts, however it is clear the city of Harar and the area around was called Adari by some Somalis.

 

[Idilinaa]

To be honest, walaal, Burton doesn’t really distort much. It’s mostly these people interpreting him through their own agendas who end up twisting things. All Burton really says about Harar is that the Hararis make up 1/3rd of the town’s population and, to be honest, while he does speak of the Emir as "their Emir" he never actually calls the Emir "Harari".

In fact, if he had some deep-seated agenda against Somalis, he’d be pretty strange to state things like: the Emir’s principal wife is a Somali woman from the Bartire; the Amir's family has maintained a marriage pact like this with the Bartire for generations; Shaykh Jami of this same tribe is practically the Amir's most influential minister; Harar is wholly at the mercy of whoever controls Berbera or Saylac—both of which he explicitly says are in Somali hands; and that Somalis, both settled and "Bedouin who come and go", make up 2/3rds of the town’s population. Hardly the work of someone trying to discredit Somalis.

Just, as you say, someone who isn't fully clued in because he got in through lies and deception and it was frankly a short visit.

It’s not that Burton had a deep-seated agenda against Somalis from the outset. I’m not saying he woke up one day and thought, “I hate Somalis, let me write nonsense about them.”


The issue lies in how he collected his information:

• Burton entered Harar illegally through deception, which severely limited his ability to gather reliable data.
• He relied primarily on random locals, meaning his accounts were shaped by secondhand knowledge rather than direct, authoritative sources.

And then there’s the matter of how he processed and interpreted that limited information his biases inevitably influenced his conclusions.

Take, for example, the infamous “Galla origin” theory that marked the beginning of modern Somali historiography in Western academia. Richard Burton was one of its earliest proponents, and later scholars like Enrico Cerulli and I.M. Lewis built upon this fabrication, effectively rewriting Somali history to exclude Somalis from their own past.


Said Shidad even pointed out the irony in this: "Galla" was never a local term Somalis used for the Oromo as a whole, different Somali groups had different localized names for them. Worse still, Western scholars misinterpreted the old Somali pronunciation of Geel (camel) and Gaal (a term found in many Somali place names), linking it to Galla which only led to further distortions of local stories.

So how did a name that Somalis neither used nor recognized become attached to them? And how did they end up being blamed as the source of a fabricated historical narrative when no Somali records or other textual sources support it?


Later, more rigorous scholars like Herbert Lewis were left flabbergasted when they examined the actual recorded history of the region. They saw how a straightforward account of the Oromo expansion into Somali territories was somehow twisted into a narrative of Somalis pushing out Oromos.


It’s the same pattern we see with Spanish archaeologists when they write about us, their work seems to defy logic and common sense. They construct self-contradictory, senseless narratives because their own biases, misconceptions, and motives shape how they interpret the facts.

 

[Idilinaa]

You have poems like Jidka Adari loo maro (the path to Adari) by Sayid Muhammad Abdullah Hassan. Adari was Harar and the area around it. Adari was also a type of pot which was said to be made in the “Adari” region and is mentioned in the story of Dhegdheer. Somalis also used the word to describe coriander seeds or the tree it stems from. There is a Somali phrase which references Dameeraha Adari (Donkeys from Adari). Adari might have meant different things in different contexts, however it is clear the city of Harar and the area around was called Adari by some Somalis.

He mentions that in the thread, it was somehow a name for a plant as well.

Interesting. You may be right it might have meant something different in separate contexts. I'll take a more deep look into the name.

 

[Idilinaa]

He mentions that in the thread, it was somehow a name for a plant as well.

Interesting. You may be right it might have meant something different in separate contexts. I'll take a more deep look into the name.

Nvm, i read his thread again and upon re-reading it, I noticed that while 'Adari' did become synonymous with Harar at some point in the 19th century, most Somalis especially those in Harar did not use that name for the city.

And he says "Although it is true that at some point in the 19th century Adari became synonymous with Harar, most Somalis didn't refer to the city of Harar as "Adare" especially if the Somalis in question live in the city itself, as in the case of Burton. In fact, most Somais today have never even heard that word."

He shows a passage from the same time period where Somalis in the area just simply referred to the city as Harar and not Adari. To the point they cried out "Harar" when they were in the vicinity of it.

This suggests that the term 'Adari' had a more nuanced and gradually shifting usage,

I think the context lies in the names gradually altered usage and adoption in the late 19th century and early 20th century.

 

[Zak12]

For instance, Ibrahim ibn Abdullah Al-Zayla’i Al-Askari, a Somali Hadith narrator, studied under the same Sheikh as Al-Daraqutni and Al-Tabari in the 9th century.

Do you have a source for this? I'm interested in knowing that a Somali scholar studied with someone as famous as Al-Tabari

 

[Barkhadle1520]

I really had not heard of him until @Idilinaa brought him to my attention but he seriously is the most serious and legit scholar we have on the field today who is actually redefining many things. He should contact Sada Mire for PR pointers.

No hes a clown really, just look at his most recent paper

 

[Barkhadle1520]

The discovery of a Zayla’i/Jabarti grave inscription in Mecca from the 9th century aligns with what we already know about Somali presence in early Islamic history. For instance, Ibrahim ibn Abdullah Al-Zayla’i Al-Askari, a Somali Hadith narrator, studied under the same Sheikh as Al-Daraqutni and Al-Tabari in the 9th century.

Somali Hadith Narrator in the 9th Century

Ibrahim ibn Abdullah ibn Muhammad Al Zayla’i Al Askari. Since his Sheikh died in 856 A.D. (245 A.H.) I’m Assuming he would have to have been born by 830. He, Al Daraqutni, and Al Tabari (RA) studied under the same Sheikh.

www.somalispot.com

I'll share more of my own thoughts to this thread in a of couple days and clarify some misconceptions

That askari guy turned out to not be somali

 

[Idilinaa]

That askari guy turned out to not be somali

Where was he from? Wasn't he from Zayla? or was it somewhere else?

No hes a clown really, just look at his most recent paper

I wouldn’t call him a clown just because of a single paper. If he got something wrong, it’s important to remember he’s working with the limited sources available, and he even mentions that in the very first sentence in his conclusion.

That said, I think what he’s doing is commendable going out of his way to document and research the written history.

If you notice something wrong, consider sending him an email with corrections. It’s mostly a pre-print at this stage not an official peer-reviewed publication since it’s still in progress. I’m planning to reach out myself once I get a few things sorted and have some question

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Where was he from? Wasn't he from Zayla? or was it somewhere else?

Idk I just remember someone explaining he wasnt somali trust

I wouldn’t call him a clown just because of a single paper. If he got something wrong, it’s important to remember he’s working with the limited sources available, and he even mentions that in the very first sentence in his conclusion.

Whole paper is a disaster it sounds like a fob wrote it, even with limited resources anyone with critical thinking would never write this, cant believe i ever praised his work, thank god he dont have sada mire type clout

 

[Idilinaa]

Idk I just remember someone explaining he wasnt somali trust

We should look for sources ourselves to be sure.

Whole paper is a disaster it sounds like a fob wrote it, even with limited resources anyone with critical thinking would never write this, cant believe i ever praised his work, thank god he dont have

He doesn't write like someone fresh off the boat, it has pretty sound vocab, grammar and academic english language.

At least both of his other two publications are pretty solid, so the praise is warranted.

Social and Economic Developments in Pre-Islamic Somalia: Introducing African-Arabian-Mediterranean Interaction

Although the history of Somalia is poorly studied, occasional researches show that the nation has a rich, ancient history. The purpose of this chapter is to explore the evolution of Somali society and aspects of their economy throughout circa 3000 BCE–500 CE. During 1960s–1980s, it has been...

www.intechopen.com

Ruined towns in Nugaal: a forgotten medieval civilisation in interior Somalia

Download Citation | Ruined towns in Nugaal: a forgotten medieval civilisation in interior Somalia | The existence of ruined towns in interior Somalia, most of them in the northwest, has been known to Western observers since 1854. Some were... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on...

www.researchgate.net

As for his last piece given the knowledge we have, i feel like we could write more coherent and structually sound piece. InshaAllah.

But reach out to him and express what you think is incorrect and needs changes. I sent him an email not to long ago, back when he published the piece on the nugaal ruins and he was pretty receptive to my suggestions.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

We should look for sources ourselves to be sure.


He doesn't write like someone fresh off the boat, it has pretty sound vocab grammar and academic english language.

At least both of hist two other publications are pretty solid, so the praise is warranted.

Social and Economic Developments in Pre-Islamic Somalia: Introducing African-Arabian-Mediterranean Interaction

Although the history of Somalia is poorly studied, occasional researches show that the nation has a rich, ancient history. The purpose of this chapter is to explore the evolution of Somali society and aspects of their economy throughout circa 3000 BCE–500 CE. During 1960s–1980s, it has been...

www.intechopen.com

Iphepha: ...

africaresearchconnects.com

As for his last piece given the knowledge that we have i feel like we could write more coherent and structually sound piece. InshaAllah.

But reach out to him and express what you think is incorrect and needs changes. I sent him an email not to long ago back when published the piece on the nugaal ruins and he was pretty receptive to my suggestions.

How long did it take him to answer ?

 

[Idilinaa]

How long did it take him to answer ?

He responded a day later.

 

[Neptune]

No hes a clown really, just look at his most recent paper

If you're going to troll do it in general or something. How are you going to call an academic that's actually putting in the work towards advancing Somali studies a clown? His paper was fine for what it was. It wasn't published in a journal with an editor.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

If you're going to troll do it in general or something. How are you going to call an academic that's actually putting in the work towards advancing Somali studies a clown? His paper was fine for what it was. It wasn't published in a journal with an editor.

Im not trolling

 

[Garaad Awal]

I'm reminded of an old saying my grandmother used to impart to me about the peopling of the north, "Dadka waa Dir iyo Darood" (The People are Dir and Darood). Even as a kid I found that strange because there's a huge other tribe right in the middle of the two that isn't mentioned in this saying.

Then it began to maybe add up with all the myths around reer Isaaq being a Dir off-shoot and began to be even more trippy when it looked like Isaaqs are a little split down the middle be E-Z813 and T-L208 whereas Hartis look mostly E-Z813. Makes me suspect the deepest real historical "schism" in the north was between the local Z813 Cushites (Hartis and 1/2 Isaaq paternal line) and the South Arabian T-L208 pastoralists (Dir and 1/2 Isaaq paternal line) who maybe brought camel pastoralism and were assimilated over-time and that's what the saying is referring to.

Isaaqs also carry E-V16 (Sanbuur), E-V22 (Arap), E-M34 (very tiny minority) which Daroods don’t have.

Isaaqs and especially Habar Magaadle are a medieval confederation. When you look at the TMRCA of Habar Awal E-V32 and compare it to other T-M70 Habar Magaadle (HY & CG), you can see that the clan formed between the 12th & 13th century with the Habar Magaadle being quite big during Futuh period with enough manpower to supply 2200 men/cavalry.