1500s - The Somali century

[Zak12]

Stone buildings and trade centers existed in Ghana,Mali, Benin, Songhai in West Africa

He said stone cities. Of course they had a few stone buildings but civilizations in West and Central Africa for the most part used mudbrick and adobe as building material. Nothing equivalent to the stone cities of the Somali and Swahili coast.

Axum

The only one of its kind in Ethiopia, and I would argue its really Tigrayan/Eritrean since that country is host to all the rest of the Aksumite Empire's stone cities.

Gondar

A few castles doesn't make a settlement a stone city. It was just another hut filled settlement but the emperors actually live in castles instead of tents.

So you are wrong

He wasn't. While West African cities boasted denser urbanization, they were not proper stone cities and Ethiopia literally only has one to its name (arguable) until the 20th century.

Again there is no Golden Age

The era that saw the rise of Somalia's greatest cities and militaries and the peak of its economic and cultural influence can't be considered a golden age?

 

[Laser]

The only one of its kind in Ethiopia, and I would argue its really Tigrayan/Eritrean since that country is host to all the rest of the Aksumite Empire's stone cities.

Axum:

Pedro on axum

A few castles doesn't make a settlement a stone city. It was just another hut filled settlement but the emperors actually live in castles instead of tents.

Gondor was extremely uncommon architecture + built by Portuguese. Not by ethiopians.

 

[Emir of Zayla]

Axum:
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Pedro on axum
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Gondor was extremely uncommon architecture + built by Portuguese. Not by ethiopians.
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[Zak12]

Axum:
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Pedro on axum
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Gondor was extremely uncommon architecture + built by Portuguese. Not by ethiopians.
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Those drawings are of Aksum during the early modern period lol. It declined heavily from antiquity

 

[Laser]

Those drawings are of Aksum during the early modern period lol. It declined heavily from antiquity

Pedro account is from 16th century

 

[Idilinaa]

The 'Golden Age' is kinda fake I'm gonna have to agree with @Idilinaa it was made up by orientalists to undermine us. Even the whole Ottoman 'sick man of Europe' thing is questionable not to say they never declined.

No one argued against this you're missing the point of it all. I call this era the Somali golden age due to the might and extent of the Two Empires.

You bring up the Islamic golden age being a fake notion when even contemporary Arabic sources write about it and for as long as I've known, even with discussions with Arabs that period is known as the Golden Age. You are just being a contrarian sxb.

It was not meant to undermine anything, it's just simply not accurate. Also orientalist don't argue for a Somali Golden Age. Somali history exists on a continimuum (Continuation) and building on the past. There are periods with changes/developmets but there are no golden ages. It's Ironic to be talking about a Golden age but picking 1500s which was a period of decline and upheaval , yikes. But there was meaningful and interesting changes/developments happening in that period that's why it comes to your mind.

Also when it comes to ''Islamic Golden Age'' it's entirely written from the perspective of European Christendom. There was no fall off after 13th century in reality if you look at the Muslim sources from that period up until the 19th century. Things pretty much continued in similar scale and production until they was interrupted by colonial developments.

So much so that even Western Scholars have begun to question it when looking at those sources and without relying on narrow set of opinions: History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps

This attitude is intimately connected to the myth that philosophy in the Islamic world ends in the 12th century, perhaps killed off by Ghazali, with a last burst of effort from Averroes who died in 1198. The reason for this myth is that philosophy in the Islamic world has always been seen from the point of view of European Christendom: Averroes was the last Muslim philosopher who exerted real influence on Christians writing in Latin, so it seems that the tradition ends there. But this is just wrong. As we'll see in the third mini-series I am devoting to the topic, philosophy and science continue and in fact flourish in the post-medieval period, with thinkers like Tusi, the School of Shiraz, Mir Damad, Mulla Sadra, etc. The philosophical tradition goes on continuously into the 19th century, after which things get complicated because you need to take into account influence from European ideas through colonialism. So I am going to stop with philosophical developments in the three empires, Ottoman, Mughal, and Safavid, though I hope to have an interview on the 20th century.

He continues:

To a large extent these extensive post-medieval developments are unknown, not only to the wider public but also to experts in the field (here I include myself) because so much of the material is still in manuscript and unstudied in European languages. Still, I will do my best to kill off the myth of philosophy's death in the 12th century.

It also might seem like a ''Golden Age'' from the perspective of the Europeans because they were coming out of a period of decline and the subsequent re-imergence of European scholastic traditions shifted it's attention more inwards. He mentions this in his podcast.

Ahmad gurey wanted to be the Mehmet of Africa. Bro wanted to end Ethiopia and create an empire from puntland to Sudan.

Likewise, Sayyid Maxamed wanted the Dervish state to create an Islamic Somali Emirate that would reach to Nairobi.

Imam Ahmed never wanted to be the Mehmet of Africa. He did want to unite the Muslims in the Horn of Africa to put an end to the Abyssinian aggression for good. If he had succeeded it would have brought great economic and social changes for them and entire region at large. Also an end to the crippling wars and stifling feudality

Whereas Sayyiid Hassan was very similar but located onto a different context he wanted to create a united Muslim movement aimed at defending/upholding the territorial and religious integrity against European colonialists who he saw as a corrupting and exploitative force.

 

[Idilinaa]

He said stone cities. Of course they had a few stone buildings but civilizations in West and Central Africa for the most part used mudbrick and adobe as building material. Nothing equivalent to the stone cities of the Somali and Swahili coast.

Building material depends entirely on the location and the environment. You need available stone quarries to build with. Those were entirely absent in a lot of those areas.

Despite this there was entire stone cities in some locations that had it available like Koumbi Saleh in Western Mali and Mauritania.

Koumbi Saleh - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Same with the Mali/Ghana empire city of Gao were made of stones. Some excavations:

https://www.editions-harmattan.fr/catalogue/couv/aplat/9782343117454.pdf

The only one of its kind in Ethiopia, and I would argue its really Tigrayan/Eritrean since that country is host to all the rest of the Aksumite Empire's stone cities.

That should tell you. They were not landlocked and had access to trade routes.

A few castles doesn't make a settlement a stone city. It was just another hut filled settlement but the emperors actually live in castles instead of tents.

He wasn't. While West African cities boasted denser urbanization, they were not proper stone cities and Ethiopia literally only has one to its name (arguable) until the 20th century.

Axum:
View attachment 322774View attachment 322775
Pedro on axum
View attachment 322778

Gondor was extremely uncommon architecture + built by Portuguese. Not by ethiopians.
View attachment 322777
View attachment 322779

Gondar was an attempt by them to build an urban trading settlement. It didn't work out too well like i said before because of their Feudal operandi:

but due to the introduction of Portuguse and European Christian trade partners they manage to form Gondar a trade settlement with stone buildings but still retaining a feudal structural tendencies and being landlocked still hindered it's economic progress.

Feudal Abyssinia was more than just handicapped by lack of urban trade settlements. It leadership prevented agricultural surplus production as well in it's rural areas and deviated all resources/man power to costly war efforts on it's neighbors. The end result was sustained poverty.

 

[Zak12]

Building material depends entirely on the location and the environment. You need available stone quarries to build with. Those were entirely absent in a lot of those areas.

Despite this there was entire stone cities in some locations that had it available like Koumbi Saleh in Western Mali and Mauritania.

Koumbi Saleh - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Same with the Mali/Ghana empire city of Gao were made of stones. Some excavations:

https://www.editions-harmattan.fr/catalogue/couv/aplat/9782343117454.pdf

That should tell you. They were not landlocked and had access to trade routes.





Gondar was an attempt by them to build an urban trading settlement. It didn't work out too well like i said before because of their Feudal operandi:

Ah, I forgot about Koumbi Saleh and Gao, probably because I associate Mauritania/Mali way more with North Africa than West Africa. Fair enough I suppose.

Btw, has there ever been any excavations done in southern Somalia? We know medieval Xamar, Merca, Barawe and others were major cities back then through writings but I can't find any excavated sites that were done

 

[ina-cilmi]

Wllhi we xooged the whole of east Africa, we would have done more had these cadaans not intervened.

The british themselves say this.

Somali expansion into what's now Kenya was halted by the British Empire. The Chief Secretary for the British Empire noted that Somalis crossing the Tana River was the red line and got involved. They wanted it to be the natural border.

 

[Zak12]

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The british themselves say this.

Somali expansion into what's now Kenya was halted by the British Empire. The Chief Secretary for the British Empire noted that Somalis crossing the Tana River was the red line and got involved. They wanted it to be the natural border.

I wonder why we didn't cross it before? Swahilis? Portuguese?

 

[ina-cilmi]

I wonder why we didn't cross it before? Swahilis? Portuguese?

Allah knows best.

regardless, we have a lot that we need to fix before we dream about our taking back previous lands or expanding

 

[Idilinaa]

View attachment 323667
The british themselves say this.

Somali expansion into what's now Kenya was halted by the British Empire. The Chief Secretary for the British Empire noted that Somalis crossing the Tana River was the red line and got involved. They wanted it to be the natural border.

There was no Somali expansion. There was already Somalis living in the areas alongside some orma groups and other bantus, masai . And there was no threat of extermination either, there was a migration of newer Somalis who wanted land acquisition to exploit for resources or trade use which was mainly done through economic partnerships or agreements through the locals and some were through military exploits.

 

[Idilinaa]

Ah, I forgot about Koumbi Saleh and Gao, probably because I associate Mauritania/Mali way more with North Africa than West Africa. Fair enough I suppose.

Btw, has there ever been any excavations done in southern Somalia? We know medieval Xamar, Merca, Barawe and others were major cities back then through writings but I can't find any excavated sites that were done

Historians associate those sites with Ghana/Wagadou polity actually.

There has been a preliminary survey on Southern coastal towns but nothing really extensive digging except for a few excavated incursion by N Chitick in Barawa and Mog because they were interrupted by the Civil War https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00672706909511511

Aside from the coastal towns they also surveyed some ruined towns in the southern interior that had pottery from the medieval period https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00672708309511319

 

[Zak12]

Historians associate those sites with Ghana/Wagadou polity actually.

There has been a preliminary survey on Southern coastal towns but nothing really extensive digging except for a few excavated incursion by N Chitick in Barawa and Mog because they were interrupted by the Civil War https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00672706909511511

Aside from the coastal towns they also surveyed some ruined towns in the southern interior that had pottery from the medieval period https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00672708309511319

And what about the north? Have Zeila, Berbera and other historic towns been properly explored since the war isn't as impactful over there?