1500s - The Somali century

[Emir of Zayla]

You are just repeating what I already stated earlier with regards to a shift to smaller castle towns and agricultural centres, but you can’t portray that era as if it were anywhere equivalent to Mogadishu starting a oceanic gold trade that made all of the cities along the East African coast, from Sofala to Mombasa and the wider Somali peninsula mushroom in prosperity.

I’d like to add on to this as you do have a good point here, Mogadishan merchants settled down in Sofala (in Mozambique) to mine for gold to trade in huge Indian Ocean economy. There may have been gold traded in before by the Indians, Arabs or what have you, but it only ballooned in size when Somalis incorporated the gold mines of inner Africa to the greater trade networks of the Indian Ocean which brought more wealth to the Somali peninsula and fame to the formerly more reclusive Swahili Coast as they become known for their gold.

 

[Emir of Zayla]

@Khaemwaset, instead of saying that the 1500s was the “Somali century” it would make far more sense to consider the “Golden Age” of the Somali peninsula in history to be from the 10-16th century from the Chinese Song Dynasty trade delegations to Somalia to the end of the wars against the Portuguese.

Ruins of Medieval structures off the coast of Somalia

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

@Khaemwaset, instead of saying that the 1500s was the “Somali century” it would make far more sense to consider the “Golden Age” of the Somali peninsula in history to be from the 10-16th century from the Chinese Song Dynasty trade delegations to Somalia to the end of the wars against the Portuguese.

View attachment 322732
Ruins of Medieval structures off the coast of Somalia

Where are these pictures from? They are really scenic

 

[Khaem]

@Khaemwaset, instead of saying that the 1500s was the “Somali century” it would make far more sense to consider the “Golden Age” of the Somali peninsula in history to be from the 10-16th century from the Chinese Song Dynasty trade delegations to Somalia to the end of the wars against the Portuguese.

View attachment 322732
Ruins of Medieval structures off the coast of Somalia

Yes I only called the 1500s "Somali Century" do to the territorial peak of Somali empires being then. If Ahmad gurey won the war then it would truly be our greatest era. But 1500s Is also marked by the Fall of Adal, Oromo expansion, Portuguese blockades, Ethiopian survival, decline in Urbanisation ect. All In the later half of the century.

 

[Three Moons]

I just realised Idilinaa is a girl, therefore Khaemsawet you are completely wrong, there was no Somali Century nor a Somali Golden Age.

A Somali female history enthusiast, how fascinating;

 

[Khaem]

I just realised Idilinaa is a girl, therefore Khaemsawet you are completely wrong, there was no Somali Century nor a Somali Golden Age.

A Somali female history enthusiast, how fascinating;

View attachment 322739

My own men have turned against me

 

[Idilinaa]

Now I’m beginning to suspect that your particular case is one of ignorance and not arrogance, since you aren’t even aware that according to the Meshafe Milad, Adal was in a direct political alliance with Mogadishu, collecting soldiers;

“An interesting passage in Meshafe Milad, attributed to Zara-Ya'qob himself, relates the story that for his campaigns of 1445, Badlay collected numerous levies, beginning 'from the house of Me'ala to Megdush [all of whom] were allied with the people of Adal’.”

- The Cambridge History of Africa Volume 3 1975 - P.155

Thats different , i already knew this and have mentioned this in different thread before here:

They did help them. I remember this one Ethiopian fella showed me this one tect, can't find it now though.

Apparently there is ample references in ethiopian historical documents of how the Ajuuran controlled Mogadishu was sending aid and troops in the fight against Abyssinian's

But this is different from saying Adal or Zayla controlling or having political influence in Mogadishu. Which is simply not true. Also Badlay was collecting support from even Egypt, it did not mean he ran Egypt for example

Again taking a basic fact ''Adal was in trade/alliance with Mogadishu'' ----> Controlled all of Mogadishu and had political influence over it. (Exaggerated spin )

As for Suakin;

“Ruled by a branch of the same Walashma dynasty, Adal occupied the whole Afar plain from Sawakin to the Shewa and Chercher mountains, including a significant part of northern Somalia.”

- Pouwels, Randall. The History of Islam in Africa. p. 229.

I need primary source for this , from the period spoken about. I have not seen evidence of this.

The portguese who came to the place layed it out in full. Afar(Dangali) or the regions further north was not included.

And beyond, far beyond in-fact. There were Mogadishan traders all the way in Malacca, scholars and administrators in the Maldives and the Bengal, etc.



Keyword ‘Gold’, the Indian Ocean gold trade not the ‘Indian Ocean trade’, which most likely predates written records. The boom in new cities across East Africa post-establishment of the gold trade by merchants from Mogadishu in Sofala is not a coincidence.

Here again you deny Somali youth their ancestors’ uniqueness by claiming they were ‘just like the others’ when in-fact their ancestors thwarted the Portuguese from permanently conquering and settling on Somali lands. Our ancestors succeeded where the Swahili coast, the Persians, the Indians, the Omanis, the Yemenis, the Malays, the Moroccans, the Chinese etc all failed. Everywhere the Portuguese sailed to they stayed for CENTURIES, and only returned their last colony as late as 1999.

Somalis are unique in their own way just like other people and made meaningful contributions but the stuff you point out are also true for others.

All those groups(except Moroccans) you mentioned had their share of the Indian ocean trade and Somalis had their own share of it.But they didn't give birth to the gold trade, people were trading with Gold in periods before and it's even mentioned in periplus. So Somalis did not give birth to the Indian ocean trade and yes Somalis had traveled to other locations exploited it's resources and were involved distant places. . It's not much different than scholars of the 1800s like Sheikh Ali Majeertan traveling to India and building a mosque there or Somali merchants in 1900s establishing a mosque in Morocco (Mosquee Somalie). Those other Indian ocean groups did the same.

There was successful attempts made by the Portuguese , at times they faced stiff resistance from the local populations . Other times Somalis was aided in collab by Ottomans and Arabs to free and defend land, so it wasn't solely by our own means. Maybe not permanent occupation but they still manage to disturb, pirate and raze/bomb Somali settlements so not a safe haven at all and it had negative consequences. That's the truth of it.

Do not project your personal ignorance on what I clearly sourced above. Next time ask for clarification if you dispute something. Do not assume that your mind contains all of the knowledge of the world since records began.

You gave 1 source that did not provide reasoning or evidence for it's claims.

We are discussing Somali History, it makes zero sense to invoke ‘other groups’ when we we talk about Somali historical figures, cities, events or anything related to the ethnogenesis of the Somali people.

This is ‘whataboutism’ in historiography.

Extending Somali reach into other groups and territories we had not political control or influence is a failed at attempt at Somali centrism. The who whole region does not revolve solely around us.

Embellished maybe, but with a concrete foundation based on primary sources. When we say Napoleon ruled Europe, the likes of you probably would point out ‘but he didn’t rule Portugal and Greece, therefore the claim is untrue.”

What do guys like you gain from trying to humble Somali youth from doing what every nation and country does on this planet? Why are they suddenly ‘unique’ in this context to be told off by you when above, at every turn, you argue we are the same as everyone else?

Don't embellish anything. Zero primary sources was given just blank statements on text and exaggerated spins on around basic established facts.

 

[Lightshow]

There was no Somali century. There was a period of intense economic growth brought by expansion of trade and development of Muslim polities between 1000s - 1600s.

It afforded them the increased ability to venture out to different places and participate in the global trade and economy. However Somalis locus political control was mostly only extended to inside their own inhabited territories.

It was not really that much different from the trade that resumed and expanded and the maritime/industry activities between the late 1700s- 1900s and the development of new Muslim polities and towns/trade centers during that period - with the difference being introduction to capitalistic alterations in terms of production.

I wonder if we ever made it to Japan.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

I wonder if we ever made it to Japan.

The Japanese diplomat Ito Mancio apparently visited Xamar as part of the Tensho Embassy in 1587

 

[Idilinaa]

Then where are all equivalent stone cities in West Africa, Southern Africa, heck where are the equivalent stone cities in highland Abyssinia if this was so common throughout Africa? All of the so-called Abyssinian cities were just monumental palaces surrounded by a sea of huts, but you think it’s comparable to the walled stone cities of Somalia and Somaliweyn?

Why don’t you join this discussion then, maybe you can succeed where the glorious Xabashi went silent in the face of facts.

Stone buildings and trade centers existed in Ghana,Mali, Benin, Songhai in West Africa and in South Africa it existed in Great Zimbabwe which was a trade settlement.

As for Ethiopia there was Axum with urban settlements and stone buildings on par with Rome and Greece and it existed for a considerable period. After it's collapse due to soil destruction in the North and being cut off from the coast by Muslim domination. The Christian power became centered in the central highlands landlocked and it took a rural feudal war driven shape for ideological survival and but due to the introduction of Portuguse and European Christian trade partners they manage to form Gondar a trade settlement with stone buildings but still retaining a feudal structural tendencies and being landlocked still hindered it's economic progress.

Feudal Abyssinia was more than just handicapped by lack of urban trade settlements. It leadership prevented agricultural surplus production as well in it's rural areas and deviated all resources/man power to costly war efforts on it's neighbors. The end result was sustained poverty.

So you are wrong. And also i don't understand the obsession with framing Somali society of consisting of only stone building/settlements which is not the case: As i explained here:

Economic development is not just simply placing stone buildings somewhere. Some buildings was built of wood and other perishable material and some settlements were simply agricultural hubs for food/crop production and camps that were grazing grounds for herds. A few were prolly fishing villages/outposts not all economic activity/life was urban based.

China today is building and erecting multiple concrete buildings dubbed ''Ghost cities'' does not mean their economy is doing well and there are not a lot of homeless people.

A lot of waffle, no substance. We are clearly talking about the most famous cities that rose in that era, no need to side track into a Zaha Hadid 101 on architecture and building materials or cultural diffusion.

Build a random building of stone in a random place you can find, exhaust yourself and your resources and when no one can afford to live in it or find use of it it will decay.

Afterwards come back to me peddling this stone city bs you love rinsing.

Therefore a specific period where there is a boom in urban stone cities in your mind can’t be characterised as a Golden Age? Its funny that you hold us to the standards of adhering to the ‘historical method’ but at the same time deny us the tool of ‘periodisation’ to get a better understanding of our history just because there were elements before and after this specific Somali Golden Age that overlap at lower frequencies.

It's just a settlement that is a byproduct of trade and commerce. There is nothing more to it than that.

Economic boom can happen outside an urban town for example agricultural surplus in a rural area

Again there is no Golden Age because Somali history exists on contimuum. There is no set date.

At a far greater intensity by every metric you can put forth. This is precisely why you cannot turn thousands of years of Somali history into one monolithic behemoth. There were clearly ups and downs, and people like Khamsawiwa (sorry bro your name is a headache) are completely in their right to come up with or use terms like a ‘Somali Century’ since that specific period was a high point in ‘Somali historical glory’.

That's what you do. You reduced Somali history to only 1500s or the medieval period. When the history is in a continuation

It's like when when Europeans try to center all of Islamic history around an imagined Golden age. The Myth of the 'Islamic Golden Age'

Not on the same scale. There were towns and cities in Europe post-collapse of the Western Roman Empire but it would be disingenuous of you to claim there was no difference between that period and the Roman age in terms of prosperity and scale.

More time passed between 1100s - 1600s in medieval Somalia than late 1700s and 1900s. . But the developmental trajectory were similar with the exception of capitalist exploitation of labour.

Several of the towns and cities in Europe post Western Roman collapse were abandoned and the ones that remaining ones were reduced in size because of trade decline, internal war, famine and invasions. Similar to what happened in Somalia between mid 1500s and late 1700s.

You are just repeating what I already stated earlier with regards to a shift to smaller castle towns and agricultural centres, but you can’t portray that era as if it were anywhere equivalent to Mogadishu starting a oceanic gold trade that made all of the cities along the East African coast, from Sofala to Mombasa and the wider Somali peninsula mushroom in prosperity.

None of them were castle towns. They didn't just consists of castles and you need agricultural centres and grazing land, how else are you going to produce foods to sustain the towns? and populations?

Are you even listening to yourself?

As if it were anywhere equivalent to Jamal-ad Din II, Mahfuz, Ahmed Guray, Nur Ibn Mujahid, etc conquering vast territories and erasing half of the Solomonic dynasty from the chessboard.

The 1700s-1900s period was still interesting, but not of the same historical pedigree as the period before that. Not in urbanisation, not in influence, not in scholarship, and not in glory.

There was several Somali leaders with military success and provided resistance during the 1800s- 1900s. You guys even posted 1 of them being featured by Al-Jazera in the history section just yesterday Sayyid Abdullah Hassan. Also those medieval figures were more about defending their territories and re-claiming it not really just conquering and erasing other entities.

And there was several influential scholars during the 1700s-1900s as well. The number of Ulema proliferated as well . Scott Reese dedicates a few pages to this when talking about Ulema from East Africa: Manuscript and Print in the Islamic Tradition and it was the same trend as in medieval period with Al-Azhar/Cairo as well. Among the countless many residents there two that stand out Umar Ahmad al-Somali and Shaykh Abdullahi al-Qutbi being a professor and in inner Egyptian political/scholarly circles.

None of that contradicts my standardisation of the 10th to 16th centuries as a Somali Golden Age. There were hundreds of cities and towns across the Caliphate prior to the 7th century too, does that mean an Islamic Golden Age never existed?

That is the logic your are peddling here.

Just like i said here:

Again there is no Golden Age because Somali history exists on contimuum. There is no set date.
That's what you do. You reduced Somali history to only 1500s or the medieval period. When the history is in a continuation


It's like when when Europeans try to center all of Islamic history around an imagined Golden age. The Myth of the 'Islamic Golden Age'

I encourage you to read that article linked.

Again you peddle that monolithic behemoth of a monster called Somali history which apparently according to you was just one long timeline of ‘we wuzz the same’ lol.

I never said it was all the same, i said Somali history existed on a continuation and building on the previous past.

 

[Khaem]

Stone buildings and trade centers existed in Ghana,Mali, Benin, Songhai in West Africa and in South Africa it existed in Great Zimbabwe which was a trade settlement.

As for Ethiopia there was Axum with urban settlements and stone buildings on par with Rome and Greece and it existed for a considerable period. After it's collapse due to soil destruction in the North and being cut off from the coast by Muslim domination. The Christian power became centered in the central highlands landlocked and it took a rural feudal war driven shape for ideological survival and but due to the introduction of Portuguse and European Christian trade partners they manage to form Gondar a trade settlement with stone buildings but still retaining a feudal structural tendencies and being landlocked still hindered it's economic progress.

Feudal Abyssinia was more than just handicapped by lack of urban trade settlements. It leadership prevented agricultural surplus production as well in it's rural areas and deviated all resources/man power to costly war efforts on it's neighbors. The end result was sustained poverty.

So you are wrong. And also i don't understand the obsession with framing Somali society of consisting of only stone building/settlements which is not the case: As i explained here:







Build a random building of stone in a random place you can find, exhaust yourself and your resources and when no one can afford to live in it or find use of it it will decay.

Afterwards come back to me peddling this stone city bs you love rinsing.



It's just a settlement that is a byproduct of trade and commerce. There is nothing more to it than that.

Economic boom can happen outside an urban town for example agricultural surplus in a rural area

Again there is no Golden Age because Somali history exists on contimuum. There is no set date.



That's what you do. You reduced Somali history to only 1500s or the medieval period. When the history is in a continuation

It's like when when Europeans try to center all of Islamic history around an imagined Golden age. The Myth of the 'Islamic Golden Age'


More time passed between 1100s - 1600s in medieval Somalia than late 1700s and 1900s. . But the developmental trajectory were similar with the exception of capitalist exploitation of labour.

Several of the towns and cities in Europe post Western Roman collapse were abandoned and the ones that remaining ones were reduced in size because of trade decline, internal war, famine and invasions. Similar to what happened in Somalia between mid 1500s and late 1700s.




None of them were castle towns. They didn't just consists of castles and you need agricultural centres and grazing land, how else are you going to produce foods to sustain the towns? and populations?

Are you even listening to yourself?




There was several Somali leaders with military success and provided resistance during the 1800s- 1900s. You guys even posted 1 of them being featured by Al-Jazera in the history section just yesterday Sayyid Abdullah Hassan. Also those medieval figures were more about defending their territories and re-claiming it not really just conquering and erasing other entities.

And there was several influential scholars during the 1700s-1900s as well. The number of Ulema proliferated as well . Scott Reese dedicates a few pages to this when talking about Ulema from East Africa: Manuscript and Print in the Islamic Tradition and it was the same trend as in medieval period with Al-Azhar/Cairo as well. Among the countless many residents there two that stand out Umar Ahmad al-Somali and Shaykh Abdullahi al-Qutbi being a professor and in inner Egyptian political/scholarly circles.



Just like i said here:



I encourage you to read that article linked.

I never said it was all the same, i said Somali history existed on a continuation and building on the previous past.

No one argued against this you're missing the point of it all. I call this era the Somali golden age due to the might and extent of the Two Empires.

You bring up the Islamic golden age being a fake notion when even contemporary Arabic sources write about it and for as long as I've known, even with discussions with Arabs that period is known as the Golden Age. You are just being a contrarian sxb.

Also those medieval figures were more about defending their territories and re-claiming it not really just conquering and erasing other entities.

Ahmad gurey wanted to be the Mehmet of Africa. Bro wanted to end Ethiopia and create an empire from puntland to Sudan.

Likewise, Sayyid Maxamed wanted the Dervish state to create an Islamic Somali Emirate that would reach to Nairobi.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

No one argued against this you're missing the point of it all. I call this era the Somali golden age due to the might and extent of the Two Empires.

You bring up the Islamic golden age being a fake notion when even contemporary Arabic sources write about it and for as long as I've known, even with discussions with Arabs that period is known as the Golden Age. You are just being a contrarian sxb.


Ahmad gurey wanted to be the Mehmet of Africa. Bro wanted to end Ethiopia and create an empire from puntland to Sudan.

Likewise, Sayyid Maxamed wanted the Dervish state to create an Islamic Somali Emirate that would reach to Nairobi.

The 'Golden Age' is kinda fake I'm gonna have to agree with @Idilinaa it was made up by orientalists to undermine us. Even the whole Ottoman 'sick man of Europe' thing is questionable not to say they never declined.

 

[Khaem]

The 'Golden Age' is kinda fake I'm gonna have to agree with @Idilinaa it was made up by orientalists to undermine us. Even the whole Ottoman 'sick man of Europe' thing is questionable not to say they never declined.

Niggas found out @Idilinaa was a girl and all turned on me

 

[Aseer]

@Khaemwaset, instead of saying that the 1500s was the “Somali century” it would make far more sense to consider the “Golden Age” of the Somali peninsula in history to be from the 10-16th century from the Chinese Song Dynasty trade delegations to Somalia to the end of the wars against the Portuguese.

View attachment 322732
Ruins of Medieval structures off the coast of Somalia

Bro tell us the places of these ruins they look so good.

 

[Emir of Zayla]

Bro tell us the places of these ruins they look so good.

I found it off google and after reverse image searching it I found it only mentions Somalia.

 

[Zak12]

Stone buildings and trade centers existed in Ghana,Mali, Benin, Songhai in West Africa

He said stone cities. Of course they had a few stone buildings but civilizations in West and Central Africa for the most part used mudbrick and adobe as building material. Nothing equivalent to the stone cities of the Somali and Swahili coast.

Axum

The only one of its kind in Ethiopia, and I would argue its really Tigrayan/Eritrean since that country is host to all the rest of the Aksumite Empire's stone cities.

Gondar

A few castles doesn't make a settlement a stone city. It was just another hut filled settlement but the emperors actually live in castles instead of tents.

So you are wrong

He wasn't. While West African cities boasted denser urbanization, they were not proper stone cities and Ethiopia literally only has one to its name (arguable) until the 20th century.

Again there is no Golden Age

The era that saw the rise of Somalia's greatest cities and militaries and the peak of its economic and cultural influence can't be considered a golden age?

 

[Laser]

The only one of its kind in Ethiopia, and I would argue its really Tigrayan/Eritrean since that country is host to all the rest of the Aksumite Empire's stone cities.

Axum:

Pedro on axum

A few castles doesn't make a settlement a stone city. It was just another hut filled settlement but the emperors actually live in castles instead of tents.

Gondor was extremely uncommon architecture + built by Portuguese. Not by ethiopians.

 

[Emir of Zayla]

Axum:
View attachment 322774View attachment 322775
Pedro on axum
View attachment 322778

Gondor was extremely uncommon architecture + built by Portuguese. Not by ethiopians.
View attachment 322777
View attachment 322779

Spoiler

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[Zak12]

Axum:
View attachment 322774View attachment 322775
Pedro on axum
View attachment 322778

Gondor was extremely uncommon architecture + built by Portuguese. Not by ethiopians.
View attachment 322777
View attachment 322779

Those drawings are of Aksum during the early modern period lol. It declined heavily from antiquity

 

[Laser]

Those drawings are of Aksum during the early modern period lol. It declined heavily from antiquity

Pedro account is from 16th century