54th Anniversary of the Kacaan

[TheLand]

@Idilinaa had spoke at length about this. Its well known that the Italians still kept a grip over Somalia after independence prior to Barre's ascension.




They did. SYL was lobbying hard for all Somali inhabited territories to be united but only managed to bring Italian Somaliland and British Somaliland together.

My point is, Somalis never had to build a gov from the ground up. Starting with the first president Aden Cadde to Siyad the government was already built out when they took over the reigns. The issue today is that we have been trying to rebuild from scratch but we’ve never had to do it by ourselves before so it’s unfair to compare all ‘presidents’ post ‘91 to those pre ‘91. It’s hard to even call those post ‘91 guys ‘presidents’ cause they don’t have a government that rules the whole country. It’s not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

My point is, Somalis never had to build a gov from the ground up. Starting with the first president Aden Cadde to Siyad the government was already built out when they took over the reigns. The issue today is that we have been trying to rebuild from scratch but we’ve never had to do it by ourselves before so it’s unfair to compare all ‘presidents’ post ‘91 to those pre ‘91. It’s hard to even call those post ‘91 guys ‘presidents’ cause they don’t have a government that rules the whole country. It’s not an apples to apples comparison.

During the trust territory period the politics was shaped by the Italians and the UN supervised it. Then MSB took over those same government instiutions that had been built during that time and before. The soviets helped develop the state further under his rule and he is credited for that (wrongly). Then the state collapsed in 91 when he refused to give up power or negotiate. Then he committed suicide in Nigeria. I don't know why people are obsessed with this guy.

 

[TheLand]

During the trust territory period the politics was shaped by the Italians and the UN supervised it. Then MSB took over those same government instiutions that had been built during that time and before and then they collapsed in 91 when he refused to give up power or negotiate. Then he committed suicide in Nigeria. I don't know why people are obsessed with this guy.

lol at suicide

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

lol at suicide

It's national make shit up day.

 

[TheLand]

It's national make shit up day.

 

[Abdisamad]

It's national make shit up day.

I gotta give it to you, you are a master at making up shit.. If I was muse bixi I would hire you as the masterchief of the propaganda ministry with six-figure salary.. Even HSM could find your skills useful, maybe try your luck xamar.

 

[Zak12]

Starting with the first president Aden Cadde to Siyad the government was already built out

Well yeah that was the point of the UN trustee but when Somalia started out we were left with practically little. No industries, barely any infrastructure, nothing. A country needs more than just a government (which was corrupt to begin with) to succeed. Outside of Mogadishu the rest of Somalia was barren. Even then, certain institutions were built by Adde's administration an example being the police force which was the reason Somalia was one of the safest countries in Africa.

Before the the mid-late 1950s The Police Force was a small rag tag of mismatch group of men hardly anything to speak of,

It was Abdirizak did the intitial building of the police armed forces striked a deal with West Germany for training , logistic support, for pilots and ground crews into a 5k army

Then Aden further developed the police force into a 10k professional modern army fully equipped.

And Barre went further ahead and industrilize Somalia properly in just 8 years. Tell me, Somali governments after him accomplished anything like this?

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

I gotta give it to you, you are a master at making up shit.. If I was muse bixi I would hire you as the masterchief of the propaganda ministry with six-figure salary.. Even HSM could find your skills useful, maybe try your luck xamar.

Like this?

 

[Step a side]

My point is, Somalis never had to build a gov from the ground up. Starting with the first president Aden Cadde to Siyad the government was already built out when they took over the reigns. The issue today is that we have been trying to rebuild from scratch but we’ve never had to do it by ourselves before so it’s unfair to compare all ‘presidents’ post ‘91 to those pre ‘91. It’s hard to even call those post ‘91 guys ‘presidents’ cause they don’t have a government that rules the whole country. It’s not an apples to apples comparison.

Bingo! You have said everything I was going to say. Somalia 1960-1991 was build by the Italians. They did all the hard work.

 

[TheLand]

Well yeah that was the point of the UN trustee but when Somalia started out we were left with practically little. No industries, barely any infrastructure, nothing. A country needs more than just a government (which was corrupt to begin with) to succeed. Outside of Mogadishu the rest of Somalia was barren. Even then, certain institutions were built by Adde's administration an example being the police force which was the reason Somalia was one of the safest countries in Africa.



And Barre went further ahead and industrilize Somalia properly in just 8 years. Tell me, Somali governments after him accomplished anything like this?

What exactly do you expect them to do when they don't control past the capital? I'm not talking about industries or infrastructure, i'm talking about starting from absolutely scratch. Abdullahi Yusuf literally had to use Ethiopians and PL militia because there was no Somali national army, not even a ragtag one. There wasn't even money to fund them. This is before you even get to the deep mistrust and hate Somalis had toward eachother after the fall of the central government which still continues today btw.

 

[TheLand]

Bingo! You have said everything I was going to say. Somalia 1960-1991 was build by the Italians. They did all the hard work.

Simple thought experiment. If HSM was handed Somalia as it was in say 1969, how would he be remembered today? Somalis would say he was a tuug but atleast we had a government and that is better than what we have today so therefore he was a good president. Using that logic, any president would look great and all those after him when there is no government will look totally useless.

 

[Zak12]

What exactly do you expect them to do when they don't control past the capital?

Its been 12 years since the establishment of FGS. They had plenty of time to expand their control beyond the capital. Also, on your point about Abdullahi Yusuf, the ICU was literally more capable of state building than his government was and they too had to start from scratch.

Its been over 30 years and you are telling me not a single Somali polity has reached the same level of development as Kacaan era Somalia? Hats off to reer Puntland for being stable and making progress but all of Somalia needs to keep up.

 

[TheLand]

Its been 12 years since the establishment of FGS. They had plenty of time to expand their control beyond the capital. Also, on your point about Abdullahi Yusuf, the ICU was literally more capable of state building than his government was and they too had to start from scratch.

Its been over 30 years and you are telling me not a single Somali polity has reached the same level of development as Kacaan era Somalia? Hats off to reer Puntland for being stable and making progress but all of Somalia needs to keep up.

You're purposely ignoring the point and going off into tangents. This is what I was referring to:

Hindsight is a b*tch. Over 30 years later and no post-91 Somali government accomplished half of what he did. And yet the man is still hated and blamed entirely for the state of modern Somalia. No accountability among Somali clan leaders and former warlords it seems.

Siad Barre didn't have to build a government from scratch so you are comparing apples to oranges. When he usurped power in 1969, there was already a government in place and already functioning for years that he could use to his ends. That makes things a lot simpler. If he were to usurp power in 2024, he wouldn't be able to accomplish a damn thing and we all know it because there is no government past the capital that can do anything.

 

[Zak12]

You're purposely ignoring the point and going off into tangents. This is what I was referring to:


Siad Barre didn't have to build a government from scratch so you are comparing apples to oranges. When he usurped power in 1969, there was already a government in place and already functioning for years that he could use to his ends. That makes things a lot simpler. If he were to usurp power in 2024, he wouldn't be able to accomplish a damn thing and we all know it because there is no government past the capital that can do anything.

I understand your point but plenty of time has passed already for a strong government to take hold. How long must we wait for that to happen? The government Siad Barre inherited took 19 years to form and develop. (UN trusteeship+ civilian government). We are 12 years in and Somalia is still poorer and less developed than even 1950s UN Somalia, crazy.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

54 years ago Mohamed Siyaad Barre took over the country in a bloodless coup which ultimately led to 21 years of rule before being ousted by terrorists, warlords, businessman and foreign interests.

Obituary: Mohamed Said Barre

Mohamed Siad Barre, policeman, soldier, politician: born Shiilaabo, Ogaden, Abyssinian Somaliland c1910; Head of State, Somalia 1969-91; Secretary-General, Somali Revolutionary Socialist Party (SRP) 1976-91; married Khadija Maalin and Dalyad Haji Hashi; died Lagos 2 January 1995.

www.independent.co.uk

Very interesting read.

 

[Zak12]

Also

If he were to usurp power in 2024, he wouldn't be able to accomplish a damn thing

Disagree. Barre unlike the current leaders had an actual drive and vision for Somalia. Forget 2024, if he took over Somalia in the mid 2000s, Somalia today would look like Iraq. Not great by any means but a vast improvement.

 

[TheLand]

I understand your point but plenty of time has passed already for a strong government to take hold. How long must we wait for that to happen? The government Siad Barre inherited took 19 years to form and develop. (UN trusteeship+ civilian government). We are 12 years in and Somalia is still poorer and less developed than even 1950s UN Somalia, crazy.

That is a separate issue, and imho, if we don't get lucky in 2026 its all over. You won't ever see a government there except maybe a taliban-like government led by shabab terrorists.

 

[TheLand]

Also

Disagree. Barre unlike the current leaders had an actual drive and vision for Somalia. Forget 2024, if he took over Somalia in the mid 2000s, Somalia today would look like Iraq. Not great by any means but a vast improvement.

How exactly would he do that with absolutely nothing? You are just being unrealistic.

 

[Step a side]

I understand your point but plenty of time has passed already for a strong government to take hold. How long must we wait for that to happen? The government Siad Barre inherited took 19 years to form and develop. (UN trusteeship+ civilian government). We are 12 years in and Somalia is still poorer and less developed than even 1950s UN Somalia, crazy.

The problem is we always pick low iq uneducated people to lead us. It’s a bad habit Somalia has developed over the years. HSM, Hamza including the regional governors are all low iq.

 

[TheLand]

The problem is we always pick low iq uneducated people to lead us. It’s a bad habit Somalia has developed over the years. HSM, Hamza including the regional governors are all low iq.

The sad part is we don't even pick them and that's the crux of the issue. Since we don't pick them they aren't accountable to us or anyone else. Hence, they behave like utter retards because they know nobody is there to hold them accountable.