Debating if Islam is tied to Somali ethnicity

[Khanderson]

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Oral tradition is the only thing we have respectively. this identity crisis is strictly a diaspora problem since their Abo don’t teach them enough about their culture & history.


I really can’t take the Ummah Somalis seriously when there are Somali Muslims who consume khat and fight over clan disputes.

 

[Khanderson]

One part? Its a essential part. I would say a Somali with two ethnic somali parents who is a muslim but can't speak the language or knows anything about dhaqan is a Somali.

I deeply suspect people like you, I doubt your faith in Islam. I doubt that you have any al wala wal bara meaning love and hate for the sake of Allah. I suspect love for those Allah hates. It deeply saddens me that Somali Muslims on this forum share your view.

Also the definition of culture is

"the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society."

So this means believing in Allah, as all Somalis do is culture, its our custom and idea. Praying, paying zakaat, fasting, going to hajj. Believing in Allah, the angels, the books of Allah, the Prophets and predestination is all culture. When you people think of culture you think of dhaanto, you think of guntiino, you think of other dances, but it isnt limited to only that. Islam has shaped our mind, it shaped our identity, our daily choices. Islam encompasses our whole life, our whole day we pray 5 times a day, prostrating to Allah and this isn't knew, I learned it from my parents, my parents learned it from theirs my grandparents learned it from theirs etc. 1400 years. Islam is so fundamentally woven into our daily day and you dare to belittle it by saying

Islam is "just" one part of Somali identity

This phrase says a lot about you as a person and your relationship with Islam.

First of you need to calm down and reflect his point: being a Somali comes from an ancestral, cultural and national identity

-not religion. Since islam is universal for all demographics.

Somalis can follow another religion and still retain his/her roots.

It’s not that complicated.

Wallahi I have more in common, more love; more brotherly love for a non Somali Muslim and closer than a filthy, evil disgusting murtad gaal. I can't force you to adopt my perception, but wallahi I will never consider a murtad gaal whom Allah hates as Somali. Islam is everything for me. Islam is both our religion and our culture and Muslim is our identity. Only thing differentiating me from an Arab Muslim, is language and phenotype.

You just admitted here that you can feel closer to a non Somali Muslim regardless of his background.

since Islam is universal you can feel more closer to a non Somali Muslim; that’s normal & understandable in both ways.

 

[JaredAbdullahiKushner2000]

First of you need to calm down and reflect his point: being a Somali comes from an ancestral, cultural and national identity

-not religion. Since islam is universal for all demographics.

Somalis can follow another religion and still retain his/her roots.

It’s not that complicated.



You just admitted here that you can feel closer to a non Somali Muslim regardless of his background.

since Islam is universal you can feel more closer to non Somali Muslims that normal & understandable.

I want to make sure that you are a Muslim before I respond. So I will ask, are you Muslim? Do you believe in Allah, his prophets, his books, his angels, the last day of judgement and predestination?

I do not want to waste my time discussing this topic with people who I do not share faith.

 

[Khanderson]

I want to make sure that you are a Muslim before I respond. So I will ask, are you Muslim? Do you believe in Allah, his prophets, his books, his angels, the last day of judgement and predestination?

I do not want to waste my time discussing this topic with people who I do not share faith.

How old are you?

if you can’t debate with me because of your insecurity about whether or not if I’m Muslim; just shows your level of intellect.

 

[JaredAbdullahiKushner2000]

How old are you?

if you can’t debate with me because of your insecurity about whether or not if I’m Muslim; just shows your level of intellect.

1. I view and judge anything through Islam. Call me bias, but I don't care. I percieve Islam as being the objective truth and I perceive anything and everything from the lenses of my faith. Every choice I make, I make it while putting my akhira into consideration. Every major I choice I make like education and careers I put Islam into consideration. From small daily choices to major life changing choices.
2. Let us just agree to disagree. I hold the view that we Somalis are ethnoreligious and "Somali" is a ethnoreligion. Islam is an crucial, essential, inseparable part of our Somali Identity. I learned that our ethnic Identity as "Somalis" formed when we adopted Islam from paganism. I don't need anyone on this forum or reddit to agree with me. The people here do not represent the majority of us 32 million Somalis backhome in Somaliweyn. The latest controversy right now is the journalist Jamal Osman claiming that Farmaajo doesn't pray, and Somalis on twitter are calling for his trial and his subsequent execution.

3. Wether you perceive a gaal murtad as a Somali or not, it will not change the fact that such a person cannot live in Somali society. They live in fear and they hide, they are pressured to pray and attend the mosque. They live in fear and in the closet and they can never publicly proclaim that they are apostates. Also according to the dastuur, a Somali citizen will have his citizenship revoked if they apostate, thus becoming stateless.

#murtadwatch #munafiwatch #jaahilwatch

 

[JaredAbdullahiKushner2000]

You are talking about being culturally Somaali not ethnically Somali. You can't be an open Gaal and be culturally Somali. I agree that is an oxymoron. Ethnically they are still Somali though.

If you consider ethnicity to only be based on genetics and phenotype, but ethnicity is much more than that, religion and customs is also factors put into consideration when concluding wether a people are an ethnicity.

 

[Burqad]

Somalis are 100 percent Muslim. we are an ethnoreligion, why do idiots rehash this?

mods put this in qashiin and lock OP and anyone who voted no in there too.

 

[BLM]

Yes: Somalis were influenced by Islamic civilisation which is good. Every communities from different cultures do celebrate the religion their ancestors believed in; and that have shaped and contributed to their society.

when the Rome conquered half of Europe they influenced their religion, law, culture and their political system. which changed the history of Europe.

The religion that strengthen them and helped them was Christianity now that the west have become more secular and tolerant they lost their ways.

however, they can still find a way to connect through culture, history and ancestry.

Somalis may have been Muslim for centuries but that doesn’t mean your ethnicity is tied to your religion.

Maybe in the cultural aspect and that’s to a degree since Somalis were Muslims for centuries; but even that’s not enough since being Somali is about sharing the same genetic profile, speaking the same language and knowing your oral roots.

Sorry to say this: being a Somali is more than just following a religion.

Oral roots say we’re descendants of the Prophet and have never been non Muslims so we can’t pick and choose. Somalis had no verifiable history before Islam unlike other people so there’s really no point in discussing this. If we had pyramids like the Nigerians and within them there idols we use to worship then yeah we could have this discussion. Right now it’s just self hate and it seems like a coping mechanism to speculate and hate your heritage.

 

[NordicSomali]

Maybe in a hundred years Somalia will be a majority atheist country, nobody knows, but they will still identify as Somali.

 

[Som]

One part? Its a essential part. I would say a Somali with two ethnic somali parents who is a muslim but can't speak the language or knows anything about dhaqan is a Somali.

I deeply suspect people like you, I doubt your faith in Islam. I doubt that you have any al wala wal bara meaning love and hate for the sake of Allah. I suspect love for those Allah hates. It deeply saddens me that Somali Muslims on this forum share your view.

Also the definition of culture is

"the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society."

So this means believing in Allah, as all Somalis do is culture, its our custom and idea. Praying, paying zakaat, fasting, going to hajj. Believing in Allah, the angels, the books of Allah, the Prophets and predestination is all culture. When you people think of culture you think of dhaanto, you think of guntiino, you think of other dances, but it isnt limited to only that. Islam has shaped our mind, it shaped our identity, our daily choices. Islam encompasses our whole life, our whole day we pray 5 times a day, prostrating to Allah and this isn't knew, I learned it from my parents, my parents learned it from theirs my grandparents learned it from theirs etc. 1400 years. Islam is so fundamentally woven into our daily day and you dare to belittle it by saying

Islam is "just" one part of Somali identity

This phrase says a lot about you as a person and your relationship with Islam.

Wallahi I have more in common, more love; more brotherly love for a non Somali Muslim and closer than a filthy, evil disgusting murtad gaal. I can't force you to adopt my perception, but wallahi I will never consider a murtad gaal whom Allah hates as Somali. Islam is everything for me. Islam is both our religion and our culture and Muslim is our identity. Only thing differentiating me from an Arab Muslim, is language and phenotype.

You are making assumptions about my relationship with the deen without knowing me. This is against islam. What i said is very simple. Islam is not the entirety of Somali identity the same as it's not the entirety of the identity of other virtually 100% muslim ethnic groups. If someone leaves the deen they are still Somali by language and culture because our culture although influenced by Islam is not identical to other Muslim majority countries. Take Micheal Marino aka maykal maryama for example. He was a highly respected Somali politician before the war, in the 1950s he campaigned against the British who gave the Ogaden region to Ethiopia. He was for most of his life a Christian ,some say he converted back to Islam before his death but nevertheless while he was a Christian he was still a key figure in the Somali self determination struggle and a somali patriot. How can you say he wasn't Somali? And when he converted back to Islam did he suddenly became Somali again? It doesn't make sense

 

[Som]

You made a understandable point but it still doesn’t feel right.

Islam didn’t come from the Somalis it came from the Arabs yet they’re not prideful enough to call themselves as ethno-religion; since there are Arab Christians and Arab atheist.

Yes i agree. I wouldn't say we are an ethnic religious group. This definition is more accurate for Jews. I believe some people like the harari in Ethiopia for example could be considered almost an ethnic religious group because their difference with the rest of the Habesha is mostly because of Islam but even then it would be a stretch. Our Somali identity is defined by many things including Islam but it's not the only thing that makes us Somali

 

[JaredAbdullahiKushner2000]

You are making assumptions about my relationship with the deen without knowing me. This is against islam. What i said is very simple. Islam is not the entirety of Somali identity the same as it's not the entirety of the identity of other virtually 100% muslim ethnic groups. If someone leaves the deen they are still Somali by language and culture because our culture although influenced by Islam is not identical to other Muslim majority countries. Take Micheal Marino aka maykal maryama for example. He was a highly respected Somali politician before the war, in the 1950s he campaigned against the British who gave the Ogaden region to Ethiopia. He was for most of his life a Christian ,some say he converted back to Islam before his death but nevertheless while he was a Christian he was still a key figure in the Somali self determination struggle and a somali patriot. How can you say he wasn't Somali? And when he converted back to Islam did he suddenly became Somali again? It doesn't make sense

Are you saying we should allow Somali apostates in Somalia? Also this was the colonial period. There were bunch of children raised as Catholics by the church in Xamar and by Nuns. This was a time of fitnah when we were occupied by Gaalo. Michael Mirano wasn't an apostate he grew up Christian and alxamdulillah he, his wife and their eight children all converted to Islam.

I am assuming yes and there is nothing wrong with my assumption. You are at fault from making me assume in the first place.

The Somali ethnic identity formed after we became Muslim. The earliest mention of the name Somali is the 15th century. You have no proof that we called ourselves Somali before that. Arabs did call us Berbers, the greeks called us Macrobians and the Egyptians called us punt, but there is no proof we called ourselves Somali. There is proof that Hawiye called themselves hawiye pre 15th century.

I want to make this clear that ethnicity is an abstract term. Some would consider factors such as genetics and phenotype to be the only consideration when considering wether a group of people are an ethnicity, but its different from which angle you see it. I see things from Islamic point of view. I cannot allow a murtad freely live in Somalia. Somalia and Somaliweyn is strictly for Somalis and I don't consider a murtad Somali. He is an ex Somali. A stateless and honorary oromo or xabashi.

You people are trying to euphemize and humanize murtads so that they can be accepted in Somali society and neither do you people practice Al Walaa Wal Baraa meaning love and hate for Allah's sake thus hating murtads and gaalo. You have love in your hearts for apostates and you want Somalis to accept apostates in society by humanizing them. Trying to convince that these horrible and disgusting people are to be considered Somali.

 

[JaredAbdullahiKushner2000]

Yes i agree. I wouldn't say we are an ethnic religious group. This definition is more accurate for Jews. I believe some people like the harari in Ethiopia for example could be considered almost an ethnic religious group because their difference with the rest of the Habesha is mostly because of Islam but even then it would be a stretch. Our Somali identity is defined by many things including Islam but it's not the only thing that makes us Somali

What makes me a Somali is Islam

You are making assumptions about my relationship with the deen without knowing me. This is against islam. What i said is very simple. Islam is not the entirety of Somali identity the same as it's not the entirety of the identity of other virtually 100% muslim ethnic groups. If someone leaves the deen they are still Somali by language and culture because our culture although influenced by Islam is not identical to other Muslim majority countries. Take Micheal Marino aka maykal maryama for example. He was a highly respected Somali politician before the war, in the 1950s he campaigned against the British who gave the Ogaden region to Ethiopia. He was for most of his life a Christian ,some say he converted back to Islam before his death but nevertheless while he was a Christian he was still a key figure in the Somali self determination struggle and a somali patriot. How can you say he wasn't Somali? And when he converted back to Islam did he suddenly became Somali again? It doesn't make sense

Even ajnabis understand you cannot be Somali and kafir. Wallahi you people are bunch of munaafiqs. No sin on me. I believe you and @K-M-O are hypocrites. And everyone who think you can be Somali and a Kafir. You saying this out of love for gaalo and only a hypocrite loves the kuffar

 

[JaredAbdullahiKushner2000]

Yes i agree. I wouldn't say we are an ethnic religious group. This definition is more accurate for Jews. I believe some people like the harari in Ethiopia for example could be considered almost an ethnic religious group because their difference with the rest of the Habesha is mostly because of Islam but even then it would be a stretch. Our Somali identity is defined by many things including Islam but it's not the only thing that makes us Somali

Even gaalo know that they are not Somali. Why do you think the Subreddit for Murtads who where formally somali call themselves XSomali?

 

[JaredAbdullahiKushner2000]

You are making assumptions about my relationship with the deen without knowing me. This is against islam. What i said is very simple. Islam is not the entirety of Somali identity the same as it's not the entirety of the identity of other virtually 100% muslim ethnic groups. If someone leaves the deen they are still Somali by language and culture because our culture although influenced by Islam is not identical to other Muslim majority countries. Take Micheal Marino aka maykal maryama for example. He was a highly respected Somali politician before the war, in the 1950s he campaigned against the British who gave the Ogaden region to Ethiopia. He was for most of his life a Christian ,some say he converted back to Islam before his death but nevertheless while he was a Christian he was still a key figure in the Somali self determination struggle and a somali patriot. How can you say he wasn't Somali? And when he converted back to Islam did he suddenly became Somali again? It doesn't make sense

Dont reply back. Lets agree to disagree.

 

[Som]

Dont reply back. Lets agree to disagree.

Bro I'll reply cause it's an interesting debate and I'm actually trying to understand your viewpoint. I AGREE (partially) with you , but I think you missed my point. Micheal Marino was raised by gaalos, so it wasn't his fault that he grew up catholic. He came back to Islam as an adult. He did many if not all of his well known achievements while he was still catholic, would say he wasn't Somali during that time period? Of course not.
Somaliness is made of : genetics (specific ancestry from Somaliweyn) qabil (belonging to an ethnic somali qabil) , language (speaking af somali) , life experience ( being born,living or having lived in Somalia), religion (Islam obviously), citizenship. I don't believe lacking one of these attributes makes you not Somali. Alxamdulilah i have all of these attributes except the fact i wasn't born in Somalia.A somali that has left Islam lacks a very important attribute of somali Identity but if they have the rest they are still Somali. How you think the state or society should treat them is another issue.

 

[Som]

Dont reply back. Lets agree to disagree.

Answer this last question. Let's say a somali becomes gaal. According to you that person is no longer Somali. Allah is the most merciful though and he can forgive that person if they repent and come back to Islam. If this person takes the shahaada do they suddenly regain their somaliness?

 

[JaredAbdullahiKushner2000]

Answer this last question. Let's say a somali becomes gaal. According to you that person is no longer Somali. Allah is the most merciful though and he can forgive that person if they repent and come back to Islam. If this person takes the shahaada do they suddenly regain their somaliness?

Yes of course

 

[JaredAbdullahiKushner2000]

Bro I'll reply cause it's an interesting debate and I'm actually trying to understand your viewpoint. I AGREE (partially) with you , but I think you missed my point. Micheal Marino was raised by gaalos, so it wasn't his fault that he grew up catholic. He came back to Islam as an adult. He did many if not all of his well known achievements while he was still catholic, would say he wasn't Somali during that time period? Of course not.
Somaliness is made of : genetics (specific ancestry from Somaliweyn) qabil (belonging to an ethnic somali qabil) , language (speaking af somali) , life experience ( being born,living or having lived in Somalia), religion (Islam obviously), citizenship. I don't believe lacking one of these attributes makes you not Somali. Alxamdulilah i have all of these attributes except the fact i wasn't born in Somalia.A somali that has left Islam lacks a very important attribute of somali Identity but if they have the rest they are still Somali. How you think the state or society should treat them is another issue.

Lacking genetics makes you a non Somali too. We talking about ethnic Somali not Somali as a nationality. Islam and Genetics is what makes a Somali a Somali. Culture is just customs practiced regularly for a long time and this includes what we do most in our daily lives and Islam fills a lot what we do in our daily lives. You know very well we pray 5 times, you know very well the kids are taken to dugsi either 2 times a week or everyday. I don't know how you grew up but in my childhood everyday I had to memorize quran. I live in a gaal country btw and Islam even then filled a lot in my daily schedule. I am an adult now and my schedule is limited and I feel like I have lost something because I don't go to dugsi anymore. How about the murtad who doesn't believe in Allah?

Also you keep ignoring my most important point. Again and again.

"The Somali ethnic identity formed after we became Muslim. The earliest mention of the name Somali is the 15th century. You have no proof that we called ourselves Somali before that. Arabs did call us Berbers, the greeks called us Macrobians and the Egyptians called us punt, but there is no proof we called ourselves Somali. There is proof that Hawiye called themselves hawiye pre 15th century."

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/debating-if-islam-is-tied-to-somali-ethnicity.141532/post-3495893

The fact that our ethnic identity as Somali formed Islam. Makes Islam a fundamental part of being a Somali. Allah erased out ethnic identity from pre Islam even if we had one.

Being a Somali means being a Muslim. Strictly speaking about us. This may be different for other ethnic groups who have a large population that didn't convert like the arabs. So you cannot compare us to them.
I won't reply back. If you don't understand this leave it at that

 

[Juliet]

Its definitely fucking not