Donald Horowitz: Federalism in Severely Divided Societies

[Thegoodshepherd]

What are the benefits of federalism when a state has deep rifts between its citizens?
Don Horowitz, who wrote the best book on ethnic conflict, gave this brilliant lecture in 2014.

 

[Kizaru]

It's true. I understand why somalis chose federalism. It could be for good reason however it pushed somalis to become hella selfish and self centered folks.

Federalism was good in the short term but absolutely decimated the social fabrics and future prospects in the long run. We always desperately try and out menuvoere each other in every thing. Living as a somali back home basically feels like competition but competition with other somalis. There isnt a single foundation for which states have. Its all just held together by old tape of qabyaalad iyo qabil. We got niggas who live in the same avenue 2 feet away attacking each other and their respective families simply because one guy is from a toolo in a different area to the other guys toolo

Once somalis move away from this qabyaalad nonsense, we will probably get somewhere.

I believe a "power sharing kept in check every second" politics is a good future for Somalia. The one man centralism experiment didn't work.



I will Try to make a mock proposal of it If I have time.

Aren't we really all the same?

 

[berberaboy66]

Somali Federation>Federal Republic of Somalia

 

[Thegoodshepherd]

It's true. I understand why somalis chose federalism. It could be for good reason however it pushed somalis to become hella selfish and self centered folks.

Federalism was good in the short term but absolutely decimated the social fabrics and future prospects in the long run. We always desperately try and out menuvoere each other in every thing. Living as a somali back home basically feels like competition but competition with other somalis. There isnt a single foundation for which states have. Its all just held together by old tape of qabyaalad iyo qabil. We got niggas who live in the same avenue 2 feet away attacking each other and their respective families simply because one guy is from a toolo in a different area to the other guys toolo

Once somalis move away from this qabyaalad nonsense, we will probably get somewhere.

I believe a "power sharing kept in check every second" politics is a good future for Somalia. The one man centralism experiment didn't work.



I will Try to make a mock proposal of it If I have time.

Aren't we really all the same?

The thing I care most about is that any FGS that we create has the ability to marshal sufficient military force to dissuade Kenya and Ethiopia from crossing our border. If the creation of a strong national army necessitates watering down federalism, so be it. The creation of a strong non-political SNA is my first national priority.

The reason I support federalism is that I don't think creating a strong SNA requires centralism. India, the US, Canada, Germany, Brazil etc are all federal states with strong militaries. I think federalism can help focus the federal government on the basic things: defense, borders, international commerce, monetary policy and it can leave service provision to the federal states.

HSM and Farmaajo want to tell Puntland how to operate clinics in Burtinle. This is a complete waste of time. Leave education, health, water, power etc to those who best understand the local setting. Federal politicians are just too power hungry to implement a lean but strong FGS.

 

[AlteKartel]

The thing I care most about is that any FGS that we create has the ability to marshal sufficient military force to dissuade Kenya and Ethiopia from crossing our border. If the creation of a strong national army necessitates watering down federalism, so be it. The creation of a strong non-political SNA is my first national priority.

The reason I support federalism is that I don't think creating a strong SNA requires centralism. India, the US, Canada, Germany, Brazil etc are all federal states with strong militaries. I think federalism can help focus the federal government on the basic things: defense, borders, international commerce, monetary policy and it can leave service provision to the federal states.

HSM and Farmaajo want to tell Puntland how to operate clinics in Burtinle. This is a complete waste of time. Leave education, health, water, power etc to those who best understand the local setting. Federal politicians are just too power hungry to implement a lean but strong FGS.

I’m not a fan of federalism but I recognize its necessity in post-conflict Somalia. You make good points but remember that it also goes both ways. Even in a federal system, the central government is supreme and above all of the federal member states. A strong FGS means that FMS can’t run to Ethiopia/Kenya/UAE when they are in dispute with the FGS. Somalia needs a trusted supreme court to be the final arbiter in matters of dispute between the FGS and its FMS. Otherwise I think it’s fine for the FGS (in consultation with FMS) to set national guidelines and standards on health, education, foods safety, and other topics of national importance. Let the FMS implement the regulations as they see fit otherwise it’s fair for the FGS to intervene if standards are being contravened.

 

[berberaboy66]

I’m not a fan of federalism but I recognize its necessity in post-conflict Somalia. You make good points but remember that it also goes both ways. Even in a federal system, the central government is supreme and above all of the federal member states. A strong FGS means that FMS can’t run to Ethiopia/Kenya/UAE when they are in dispute with the FGS. Somalia needs a trusted supreme court to be the final arbiter in matters of dispute between the FGS and its FMS. Otherwise I think it’s fine for the FGS (in consultation with FMS) to set national guidelines and standards on health, education, foods safety, and other topics of national importance. Let the FMS implement the regulations as they see fit otherwise it’s fair for the FGS to intervene if standards are being contravened.

To be honest I’ve always felt Supreme Court would be a good place to put clan leaders. Important role but gets them out of the way.

Also fits in with our culture of having clan leaders resolve conflicts

 

[Zak12]

Federalism was only meant to be a short term solution but now it is fully ingrained into our society and promotes qabilyaad. Its not even proper federalism either, FMS do whatever they want while the federal government is either helpless or fights against them in pointless disputes.

 

[AlteKartel]

To be honest I’ve always felt Supreme Court would be a good place to put clan leaders. Important role but gets them out of the way.

Also fits in with our culture of having clan leaders resolve conflicts

I get your perspective but on the other hand I think this should be the one body where tribe is not seen to be playing a role. This body would deal with disputes between states and between the FGS. Any perceived tribal bias could be fatal to the goals we wish to achieve. I do support a separate government-funded council of all the Garaads/Sultaans/Ugaases of the clans and subclans to help resolve disputes and keep those old dudes occupied with other stuff besides politics.

 

[AlteKartel]

Federalism was only meant to be a short term solution but now it is fully ingrained into our society and promotes qabilyaad. Its not even proper federalism either, FMS do whatever they want while the federal government is either helpless or fights against them in pointless disputes.

That’s my main worry with federalism in Somalia. Qabyaalad has ruined the country the last 30 years and this federal structure of qabiil states just reinforces that sentiment. If your qabiil is the most important political unit and you have a FMS that exists solely to promote your qabiil’s interests, why would you have any unity to the Somali government?

 

[DR OSMAN]

I liked how the speaker mentioned federalism is shared sovereignty and then you have clowns still thinking the central govt is some what higher up in importance. Shared sovereignty means equal in status under the constitution and only different functions and roles.

Somalis think the petty 4 functions of federal govt makes it supreme in heirachy when it's not and they fail to grasp shared sovereignty.

 

[DR OSMAN]

A good judicial organ and system reminding federal govt and fms you both are equal in status before the law and only carry out different sovereign tasks. Somalis think their some hierachy between feds, regional, local and there isnt. Their all equal sovereign bodies one isnt superior to the other in a proper federal country. PL MUST only answer to a constitutional judiciary not a federal govt that is its equal.

 

[AlteKartel]

I liked how the speaker mentioned federalism is shared sovereignty and then you have clowns still thinking the central govt is some what higher up in importance. Shared sovereignty means equal in status under the constitution and only different functions and roles.

Somalis think the petty 4 functions of federal govt makes it supreme in heirachy when it's not and they fail to grasp shared sovereignty.

CHAPTER 5. DEVOLUTION OF THE POWERS OF GOVERNMENT INTHE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF SOMALIA​

​

Article 48 :​

1. The structure of the government in the Federal Republic of Somalia is composed of two levels of government:
   1. The Federal Government Level;
   2. The Federal Member States Level, which is comprised of the Federal Member State government, and the local governments

Idk it seems quite clear to me that they are not the same level. The word devolution implies that powers are ceded from the federal government to the FMS. Later articles make it clear that this is done through negotiations with the FMS. You can love Puntland as much as you want but don’t lie to yourself Aboowe. Your state government is not on the same footing as the FGS constitutionally. I agree with you though that a strong and independent judiciary is necessary to address any disputes between FMS and between FMS and the FGS.

 

[DR OSMAN]

CHAPTER 5. DEVOLUTION OF THE POWERS OF GOVERNMENT INTHE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF SOMALIA​

​

Article 48 :​

1. The structure of the government in the Federal Republic of Somalia is composed of two levels of government:
   1. The Federal Government Level;
   2. The Federal Member States Level, which is comprised of the Federal Member State government, and the local governments

Idk it seems quite clear to me that they are not the same level. The word devolution implies that powers are ceded from the federal government to the FMS. Later articles make it clear that this is done through negotiations with the FMS. You can love Puntland as much as you want but don’t lie to yourself Aboowe. Your state government is not on the same footing as the FGS constitutionally. I agree with you though that a strong and independent judiciary is necessary to address any disputes between FMS and between FMS and the FGS.

exactly two equal govt shouldn't waste time trying to assert authority on the other, they both answer to a constitutional judicial and that's it. I don't see what the hell fgs is fighting for. Regional govt won't answer to a federal govt nor will federal govt answer to a regional govt since both are codified as equals. Let them focus on their duties and functions and stop this unconstitutional conflicts.

 

[Sup]

A good judicial organ and system reminding federal govt and fms you both are equal in status before the law and only carry out different sovereign tasks. Somalis think their some hierachy between feds, regional, local and there isnt. Their all equal sovereign bodies one isnt superior to the other in a proper federal country. PL MUST only answer to a constitutional judiciary not a federal govt that is its equal.

Is Melbourne equal to Canberra ? (Your Australian right) Is New York equal to Washington ?

if their all equal who runs the country ?
Who commands the national military ?
Who decides the budget etc
You clearly don’t know what federalism is

 

[AlteKartel]

exactly two equal govt shouldn't waste time trying to assert authority on the other, they both answer to a constitutional judicial and that's it. I don't see what the hell fgs is fighting for.

They’re not equal Aboowe. I’ve never heard of the word “levels” used to describe two things of equal stature nor would the word “devolution” be used if they were the same. But yes, they should both be beholden to a constitutional judiciary.

 

[DR OSMAN]

They’re not equal Aboowe. I’ve never heard of the word “levels” used to describe two things of equal stature nor would the word “devolution” be used if they were the same. But yes, they should both be beholden to a constitutional judiciary.

How is 4 sovereign tasks that the federal govt has superior to regional govt who hold more responsibilities?

 

[DR OSMAN]

Why can't the fgs tale upon an e.u role as oversight powers and ceremonial, I wouldn't even give it any functions to carry out.

 

[AlteKartel]

How is 4 sovereign tasks that the federal govt has superior to regional govt who hold more responsibilities?

I have no intention of going back and forth with you on this when it’s quite plainly there for anyone to see. This was a provisional constitution with the intention of ironing out power sharing at a later date. However, what was ironed out, is that the Federal Republic of Somalia has two levels of government. The federal government is on its own level, and all other forms of regional and local governments are below it.

 

[DR OSMAN]

Any govt model repeating the failed 1969 model structure will cause balkanization immediately.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@AlteKartel the sovereign state is qaranka and consists of federal, regional, local govt all equal under a shared sovereignty, each body reports only to a constitutional court if conflict arises over duties but a federal govt organ cannot play judge, jury, executioner, what are u smoking. When the hell can a fed tell a state what to do without constitutional law because without it their both equal bodies under qaranka? federal govt has no constitutional law equipping it with state jurisdiction.

Go and learn federations based on law not 1969 models which u r trying to seek.