Donald Horowitz: Federalism in Severely Divided Societies

[AraragiKoyomi]

Awdal lol, still dreaming about conquering SL It will remain a dream bud

Still dreaming about ictiraaf? What happened to the MOU?

 

[DR OSMAN]

Still dreaming about ictiraaf? What happened to the MOU?

MOU are not legally binding agreements but handshake agreements lol. Go look at international MOU in the past and if any has been implemented.

 

[AraragiKoyomi]

MOU are not legally binding agreements but handshake agreements lol

But secessionist are acting like ictiraaf is around the corner

 

[Hassan Garguute Buldanana]

Federalism doesnt work in Somalia. It is as useless as political parties in Somalia. The FMS arent Federal state but confederate ones. When South West state doesnt like the decision of the FGS, they run to Ethiopia, Gedo's leader is openly declaring that his state is part of Ethiopia, Madobe just extended his term once again through the regional parliament. Also I dont understand why there arent SNA bases in puntland. SNA needs to be present everywhere in Somalia from Ras Kambooni to Awdal.

No need for SNA bases in PL. Currently SNA is nothing but tribal militias pretending to be a national army. We wouldn't even accept them even if they were true national army.

 

[AlteKartel]

I would like to have the federal governments powers defined in the constitution so that it is clearer than in the US constitutionThis will help reduce the need to go to the supreme court every other day.

The more clear cut the constitution the easier it will be to have fewer disagreements.

I agree. The provisional constitution needs to be finished but not the way HSM went about it. Although, I don’t care about needing the people to ratify the constitution. That’s unnecessary and too far into the future. Hopefully the next administration is able to finish it properly.

 

[berberaboy66]

I get your perspective but on the other hand I think this should be the one body where tribe is not seen to be playing a role. This body would deal with disputes between states and between the FGS. Any perceived tribal bias could be fatal to the goals we wish to achieve. I do support a separate government-funded council of all the Garaads/Sultaans/Ugaases of the clans and subclans to help resolve disputes and keep those old dudes occupied with other stuff besides politics.

I’ve only just seen this response now sorry sxb. But I feel like having every elected tribal leader as part of a Supreme Court would remove tribalism don’t you think?

That means it takes the decisions out of your hands, no clan in Somalia is majority and can single handedly change a vote. We know this because Somalia has never been dominated by one clan. If something passes via majority then qabyaalad cannot be blamed, that means multiple clans agreed with the order.

At this point I feel like we have to stick to what we know best and develop it from there. Centralism is foreign concept and look where it got us, federalism too.

We complain about having uneducated ministers in positions of power, but that’s because we’re forcing them to take part in a style of politics that’s completely foreign to them.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

I agree. The provisional constitution needs to be finished but not the way HSM went about it. Although, I don’t care about needing the people to ratify the constitution. That’s unnecessary and too far into the future. Hopefully the next administration is able to finish it properly.

Somalia has no founding fathers who believe in limited government and the people are split about it. They are not in agreement, so it will not happen.

What is more likely to happen is that people will just do what is most natural which is strong central government because central government has all the legal authority to enter into international agreements which is where Somalia's revenues and resources and material support are going to come from. If the FGS survives it will dominate and everything else will decline.

 

[AraragiKoyomi]

No need for SNA bases in PL. Currently SNA is nothing but tribal militias pretending to be a national army. We wouldn't even accept them even if they were true national army.

Personally, I am from Xamar, but my family originate in Guri'ceel. If Guriceel rebels against the government. We deserve xasuuq. I would personally bomb guri'ceel, if they are somalidiid.

 

[AlteKartel]

I’ve only just seen this response now sorry sxb. But I feel like having every elected tribal leader as part of a Supreme Court would remove tribalism don’t you think?

That means it takes the decisions out of your hands, no clan in Somalia is majority and can single handedly change a vote. We know this because Somalia has never been dominated by one clan. If something passes via majority then qabyaalad cannot be blamed, that means multiple clans agreed with the order.

At this point I feel like we have to stick to what we know best and develop it from there. Centralism is foreign concept and look where it got us, federalism too.

We complain about having uneducated ministers in positions of power, but that’s because we’re forcing them to take part in a style of politics that’s completely foreign to them.

You’re not wrong about the fact that these systems of power are foreign to us but imagine a tribal Supreme Court striking down a law based on tribal allegiances and not on the constitution? That’s no way to run a state. I think tribe can still play a role but only in the upper house. Allocate those seats using 4.5 and limit the powers of the upper house relative to the house of the people.

 

[Garaad Awal]

Still dreaming about ictiraaf? What happened to the MOU?

When will you have an army? Al Shabab is about to have their 20th anniversary And so will the Ethiopian & meadow troops in your country

 

[AraragiKoyomi]

When will you have an army? Al Shabab is about to have their 20th anniversary And so will the Ethiopian & meadow troops in your country

When the oil is out. We can play the wait game. Al shabaab isnt strong enough to hold cities, thats why they engage in guerilla warfare. Now that that our seas are being patrolled by Turkey, there will be no resupplies for Shabaab.

As for Ethiopia, there are broke and they will leave by december bi'ithnillah.

We can play the long game

 

[berberaboy66]

You’re not wrong about the fact that these systems of power are foreign to us but imagine a tribal Supreme Court striking down a law based on tribal allegiances and not on the constitution? That’s no way to run a state. I think tribe can still play a role but only in the upper house. Allocate those seats using 4.5 and limit the powers of the upper house relative to the house of the people.

Not everything has to work like the US Supreme Court sxb. You can always limit what gets sent there to vote on.

But ultimately you’re right. Tribal Supreme Court will always have its flaws. Every system will but that’s the good thing about making a new constitution, everything can be analysed to every word, it’s like a puzzle where everyone’s wants have to fit together

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

When the oil is out. We can play the wait game. Al shabaab isnt strong enough to hold cities, thats why they engage in guerilla warfare. Now that that our seas are being patrolled by Turkey, there will be no resupplies for Shabaab.

As for Ethiopia, there are broke and they will leave by december bi'ithnillah.

We can play the long game

You are not strong enough to hold cities either lol.

You sell your army supplies on the black market. It's a government of petty thieves, because unsuprisingly the clans that avoided establishing a government for so long were petty thieves themselves.

You don't have a government so that oil is going to be stolen like cheap army rations and you'll have some new billionaires rolling around Nairobi or Istanbul or wherever they go.

 

[AraragiKoyomi]

You are not strong enough to hold cities either lol.

You sell your army supplies on the black market. It's a government of petty thieves, because unsuprisingly the clans that avoided establishing a government for so long were petty thieves themselves.

You don't have a government so that oil is going to be stolen like cheap army rations and you'll have some billionaires rolling around.

State formation is happening right now. Our politicians will politically mature. Corruption has always been present in Somali politics ever since 1960

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

State formation is happening right now. Our politicians will politically mature. Corruption has always been present in Somali politics ever since 1960

Leopard won't change it's spots. Right now there is UNSOM acting as a second political wing alongside FGS. Nothing is going to change.

FGS was an experiment in can a leopard change their spots. Can the clans who didn't form a government and choose to loot and pillage for 20 years with all the support in the world become functional and the answer is no.

 

[AlteKartel]

Not everything has to work like the US Supreme Court sxb. You can always limit what gets sent there to vote on.

But ultimately you’re right. Tribal Supreme Court will always have its flaws. Every system will but that’s the good thing about making a new constitution, everything can be analysed to every word, it’s like a puzzle where everyone’s wants have to fit together

You’re right but if the constitution is the supreme law of the government then we should have courts who decide disputes based on its principles. And yes, we have an opportunity to make the constitution as clear as possible but disputes will always arise because we cannot anticipate every issue.

 

[Hassan Garguute Buldanana]

Personally, I am from Xamar, but my family originate in Guri'ceel. If Guriceel rebels against the government. We deserve xasuuq. I would personally bomb guri'ceel, if they are somalidiid.

Well you should, the so called SNA serves the interest of your folks and are mainly recruited from y'all and KG folks.

 

[CABDULWALI XASAN.]

The thing I care most about is that any FGS that we create has the ability to marshal sufficient military force to dissuade Kenya and Ethiopia from crossing our border. If the creation of a strong national army necessitates watering down federalism, so be it. The creation of a strong non-political SNA is my first national priority.

The reason I support federalism is that I don't think creating a strong SNA requires centralism. India, the US, Canada, Germany, Brazil etc are all federal states with strong militaries. I think federalism can help focus the federal government on the basic things: defense, borders, international commerce, monetary policy and it can leave service provision to the federal states.

HSM and Farmaajo want to tell Puntland how to operate clinics in Burtinle. This is a complete waste of time. Leave education, health, water, power etc to those who best understand the local setting. Federal politicians are just too power hungry to implement a lean but strong FGS.

Thats the issue, federalism combined with a 100% incompetent government leads to worse division and no development no development

 

[Garaad Awal]

When the oil is out. We can play the wait game. Al shabaab isnt strong enough to hold cities, thats why they engage in guerilla warfare. Now that that our seas are being patrolled by Turkey, there will be no resupplies for Shabaab.

As for Ethiopia, there are broke and they will leave by december bi'ithnillah.

We can play the long game

You have a great talent walaal. You could be the next Somali George R.R. Martin or JK Rowling. Keep up the fictional writing

 

[AraragiKoyomi]

You have a great talent walaal. You could be the next Somali George R.R. Martin or JK Rowling. Keep up the fictional writing

Only time will tell, but I am very optimistic I will be at the right side of history. Where as your people(secessionist) will be humiliated hundreds of years to come. Never ever in Somali history have we had such treacherous people that they would aid the kuffar against their own kin.