The funny thing is that historical records indicate that the realm of the Harla/Adal extended as deep as Nugaal Valley yet we are somehow supposed to believe they were actually all Ethio-Semites despite the complete lack of Ethio-Semitic linguistic or genetic influence in Northern Somalia. Even Afars have clear Ethio-Semitic influences but not any Somali clan.
Earliest mention of Somali
- Thread starter Zak12
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I reiterate Harla lived in between Awash and upper shabelle river , they didn't even live in Harar let alone Nugaal Valley which was inhabited by Harti, who's sheikhs are buried near the ruins.
Another source claimed Xarla resided since old times in the land of Ciise:
And Awdal although we use it to liberally refer to a ruling polity the name was a regional name for Zayla and its country side, a province of some sort. It was not tied to a specific people or clan. And in the internal documents they name their state after the ruling dynasty they don't even call it Adal.
It's only called that by the portuguese and other external people who knew the land through its chief commercial city and it's entrepoint.
Awdal/Adal is the name of a region/province around Zeyla and it's extending hinterland.
The name Awdal was recorded before the Sultanates establishment in the 15th century, so it cannot derive it's name from that
And in local sources it was not in reference to the 16th century sultanate but an actual region/province several centuries prior.
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Marehan doesn't come from harari language nor are darood related to you (maybe some harari lineages are of somali darood origins but that's irrelevant) stop spewing nonsense nga.That’s because I wasn’t aware of the topic at the time, so I did some reevaluation of my current thoughts. At the end, all that lineage did was just assert how Hararis have ties with Darod clan as a whole, and it all starts with Abdurahman Gabarti.
The founder of the Darod clan is named Abdurahman Jabarti, as noted by many sources. Oral sources say that Abdurahman Jabarti was an Arab, but like other lineage stories we can take that with a grain of salt.
The last name Jabarti leaves us with a lot of clues. If we look at Egyptian sources, we notice that they referred to people from the Horn of Africa as Jabarti or Gabarti. This suggests that Abdurahman Jabarti was most likely from the Horn of Africa. To make things more interesting, the Abysinnian Chronicles mention of a land called Gabar-ge, which was a Muslim land that they took over and was ruled by a Hegano. Gabar is a harari word referring to tame or vassal (more info in the screenshot I sent). Hegano is a harari title for a leader, stemming from the word hegana, meaning to replace (I sent another screenshot for that).
When looking at the tree you showed, I agree with the author of the one who documented that tree saying that “it’s possible to suppose that their integration into Somali lineage is later than the 16th century” (I screenshotted that too). AKA assimilation. We know Marehan is not the brother of Harti and Kari, hence that family tree was giving a generalization and not specificity, especially considering it goes way back and there are gaps in the lineage as it goes up.
Look at the names of the three clans next to Harla. Marehan I already explained its meaning before. Harti and Kiri are really interesting because it’s exact opposites of each other in the Harari language. Harti means “ she went/left (-ti is “she” and Hara means “go” and Hara becomes Har when a suffix is added) and Kiri means “stay (command to a female, root word is kara)”. I sent screenshot of those two below as well. And considering their ancestor was Koombe, which has root word “kum” in harari language like the ancient town of Qumizar (screenshot of that is also sent below). If you look lower in the list, you can see Harari names like Awari (saint of Harar, meaning Aw Strange) and Dus (honey).
Hence, Darod are related to Hararis.
You also know how he was able to do that if you read the book. He didn’t write it in Harar but in one of the Somali villages with the help of a slave fluent in many languages (there were a few mistakes but otherwise really well done). Richard Burton has the most accurate source for his time, ofc he had to since he was in the employ of the British govt (prolly a spy).
ok I’ll refer that over to Dr. Sherif
. He’s working with some researchers to digitize most of the manuscripts.
Cope? You know the same author said that Somalis weren’t part of Adal?
You are merging two things. There is the word Gar and Garad. For Gar, both our meanings are correct. When we are looking at Garad, Leslau's old hypothesis was that Garad was possibly derived from the Somali word Gar, but as I sent in the screenshot with the two pictures, the first picture was from Leslau's other dictionary written 10 years later for Geez. Hence, over time he came to realize that the word Garad stemmed from the Semetic word "garada," meaning "to peel off, differentiate." That is what the Garad does as a leader, differentiate wrong and right. He is the harbor of truth and justice.
But Leslau believes Garad is of Cushitic origin
lol what was his explanation? Clearly it doesn't mean burning country in Arabic. Burning in Arabic is حرق. Jabara/Jabarta means something completely different, stop making things up from thin air.
Yeah I know that. In fact, that literally aligns with what the Zara Yaqob Chronicles said. They said Gabarge was a region. Over time it referred to Horner Muslims as a whole.
lol if thats the case, then the tree is not completely accurate, again further proving my point that as you go up higher in the tree, it loses its specificity and is just trying to paint the bigger picture. Kari and Geri are two different things, they differentiated between the two. If you look a bit down you see Geri. Point is, its just a general overview, not 100% accurate.
lol Geri and Kari are not coincidental bud
That was his original hypothesis. He wrote that in the Harari dictionary in 1963, but 10 years later he wrote the Geez dictionary in which I took the screenshot for garada, with all Semetic languages' use of garada mentioned.
Definitely i traveled back in time to the 15th century and told the medieval historian Al-Maqrizi what to say about what the name Jabarti means. Unhinged level of denialism.
It's Afar spelling. People can pronounce and spell the same name differently it's not complicated. They also spell Harla as Harralah in the same manuscript, does that mean they are two different clans? No. Geri and Kari it's the same clan being mentioned and exist in the same space in the lineage tree. Geri-Kombe-Kablallah are the brothers of Harti Kombe Kablallah etc.
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Also they speak a totally different dialect from Issa , called Af-Harlaad alongside their Darood lineage. It's like claiming Tunni iyo Raxanweyn are Somali assimilates if we follow that logic and people who you assimilate speak your dialect not a different one.
So trying to suggest they are assimilates by Somalis is a pretty weak argument in light of evidence and it makes absolutely no sense at all.
True.
Has there ever been a case where an assimilated group in the Horn not only completely abandoned their ancient language but somehow constructed an entire new dialect during the process of assimilation rather than simply adopt the language of the dominant group that assimilated them? The Afran Qallo Somalis assimilated into the Oromo, but still retained their geneological tables and Somali root words allowing us to determine their pre-assimilation origins, same with the Somalis on the Eritrean coast that married into the Afar groups, same with the Somalis in Oman, same with the Somalis in Hyderabad, etc, their Somali origins can still be retraced today centuries later.
Yet we are supposed to believe that a powerful group like the Harla somehow dropped their entire ‘Ethio-Semitic language’ and then constructed a new geneological table of descent and on top of that created a new Somali dialect devoid of any Semitic base influence? Either they were mutes that only learned to speak a language when they were assimilated into other Somali groups or they voluntarily erased their own Ethio-Semitic ethnic origins, a process Somalis never inflicted on any group within their homeland be it Swahili groups, Bantu groups, Cushitic groups or Ethio-Semitic groups like the Hararis, our ancestors even when outnumbering them did not force them to change their languages or erase their ethnic origins. Yet we are told this is exactly what happened to the Harla.
Absurd right?
Translation;
“The complete number series listed below is also given by Cerulli (1964:223), namely for the Harla. This is spoken in the Harar area, south of Goraribi. The Ḥarla count themselves among the Darod, i.e. probably the largest Somali dialect group at the time in terms of the number of speakers; There is no information about their economic structure. In this series of numbers, the encryption compared to the corresponding Somali lexeme is usually carried out by metathesis of the first two syllables or consonants; Other changes also occur in smaller numbers. In order to make the sound changes as clear as possible, the table shows”:
Lotos, Hand und zweimal Mond
zu Kardinalzahlen und ihren Systemen in afroasiatischen Sprachen By Barbara Wenger pages 262 - 264
Numbers are one of the most archaic systems to develop first in every language, the Harla numeral system is clearly the closest to the Somali numeral system because the former was indeed a Somali group like the Tunni or Yibir, but retained their archaic and Argot style of counting, which ultimately goes back to the same source as Standard Somali. It does not resemble any of the Ethio-Semitic languages and their numeral systems at all.
This combined with their Somali genealogical tables, and their close proximity and kinship with Somali groups during the Futuh i.e being led by a Somali Sultan, being counted among the Somali tribes, having the Somali tribe of Zarba rising from the Harla country, and on top of that the only evidence of a distinct language being used by this group was a Somali dialect, makes it (academically speaking) a clear open and shut case about their true origins, but there is so much prestige and regional political ramifications attached to the origins of the Harla (that spans both the medieval and modern Horn) it should not be a surprise that so much intentional confusion is being created alongside a ridiculous amount of denialism. Ultimately its a fear of acknowledging Somali historical influence rooted in a extreme lack of respect for the Somali people themselves, something @The alchemist perfectly articulated in this thread.
Um, yes. Oromos are literally the prime example of that. Look how Oromos assimilated many peoples, and how each region of Oromia speaks a different type of Afaan Oromo. You can literally hear the differences between a Wollega Oromo and a Hararghe Oromo.
This is super goofy man, have you actually met hararghe Oromos? You probably get similar root words with Oromos because y’all speak a similar language
. The same way I bring forth semetic root words is the same way it would work for Cushitic ones as well. Your friends here abuse that relationship of language clusters to baselessly claim that Hararis come from Gurage.All this probably happened after the 1500s. Don’t forget it’s been 500 years since then, and Somalis have been riding dhows for quite some time.
Yes, in linguistics it’s called unidirectional assimilation, where a language is assimilated with zero to little influence on the language as a whole. There are many factors that come into play, like demographics or power imbalances. There are many cases in history where this has been the case, it’s not something new. And it’s not like the entire Harla population became assimilated into Darod; it could have been a few hundred people or even one person. Hence, that chain of thought would require more context to become a stronger hypothesis.
You just answered my question by supporting the point I was making, are you aware of that? In all of the cases where assimilation occurred in the Horn there was a previous language (now assimilated), and a new dominant language that did the assimilating.
In the case of the Harla, there is no evidence of a ‘previous language’, only the case of a Somali dialect and that’s pretty damning in terms of evidence.
This is super goofy man, have you actually met hararghe Oromos? You probably get similar root words with Oromos because y’all speak a similar language
How is it goofy, when they are literally bilingual? And the Somali groups that were assimilated by them are easily identifiable based on their language, genealogical table and the institutions that they introduced. Why is this not the case with regards to the Geysinan language and the Harla remnants?
The supposed assimilation of the Harla also happened in that same time-frame, yet there is no evidence of a ‘archaic base language’ nor any evidence of a non-Somali genealogical table. Why should we believe that the various Somali groups that married into new dominant groups managed to retain their ethnic heritage FOR CENTURIES but the Harla couldn’t, when all evidence points to the fact that they did exactly that?
There has never been a case in human history where an entire group was assimilated and their previous language, culture, religion, institutions and DNA did not leave a mark on the assimilated descendants. That’s what you’re trying to sell us, that the Harla, the second most mentioned group in the Futuh, and one of the most powerful factions in the Horn as late as the 16th century somehow had their entire language, DNA and culture erased to the point that in modern times there is nothing to distinguish them from the Somali group that supposedly ‘assimilated’ them, yet when Harla remnants were found amongst non-Somali groups they still claimed a Somali origin for themselves.
Um, yes. Oromos are literally the prime example of that. Look how Oromos assimilated many peoples, and how each region of Oromia speaks a different type of Afaan Oromo. You can literally hear the differences between a Wollega Oromo and a Hararghe Oromo.
This is super goofy man, have you actually met hararghe Oromos? You probably get similar root words with Oromos because y’all speak a similar language
The existence of Harla and various other Somali dialects actually proves against the Oromo comparison you are trying to make.
Because Oromos expanded into the areas they live in an assimilated a bunch of people but they don't display the same type of dialectal differentiation you see in Somalis due to how recent they are. Oromo's expanded into these areas roughly around the same as the writing of Futuh.
''Galla , it is clear , cannot have begun seperating very long ago , since their ''language is so essentially constant that the women and children of Gurri tribe who inhabit El Wak oaisis and the surrounding districts ... talk the same dialect as those of the Walega''
Whereas because Somalis have been living in the regions they live in for many centuries separated by distances and ecological niches they ended up differentiating into local dialects
''Further research has shown that at least four linguistic stages that the Somalis have gone through are missing from the Oromo language''
What the existence of a Harla dialect proves is that they have been local to the areas they live in for many centuries and they did not go through a process of assimilation.
Yes I understand but you didn’t understand a thing about what I said regarding unidirectional assimilation. One Harla dude can marry into a Somali clan and his descendants can be called “Harla,” that is the population imbalance I was talking about. Another was the power imbalance I was talking about, where a few farmers would be disrespected culturally as Somalis favor the pastoralist way of life. There are more factors but yes, contrary to your belief there has been unidirectional assimilation in history. So it’s not enough evidence. Just search up unidirectional assimilation if you don’t believe me.
Hararghe Oromo were interacting mostly with Harar in these past centuries. They sieged us don’t forget. Just because they assimilated one or two of the farming Somalis doesn’t mean they are Somali. That’s poor logic, and indicates post-1500s assimilation.
lol Hararghe Oromo dialect was influenced by Geysinan due to their exposure with us for the past 500 years, what are you talking about? We literally taught them how to farm.
lol ur pretty much basing ur entire conclusion of Harla remnants among the Somali from one preliminary type study done. Don’t be so quick to judge with such little evidence, it can lead to the wrong conclusions.
We wuz darood gotta be the craziest hotep claim I've ever seen in the horn that made Oromo ethnonationalists look tame
Assimilation as we know it is unidirectional in nature by default, not sure why you use that term alongside assimilation to begin with, since nobody here is even discussing other terms like multiculturalism, acculturation or integration for the word assimilation to be pre-defined as such, assimilation works just fine.
Secondly that makes no sense as the Harla male in question would not adopt a Somali male patriarchal lineage for himself, but would trace back to a distinct Harla male lineage if he indeed was from a different ethnic group, instead the groups that spoke Af-harlaad and were found amongst both Somali and non-Somali groups had a clear Somali genealogical table of descent.
It’s interesting that you use the above argument considering this would constitute the direct opposite of assimilation, because the male would have had to have imposed his ethnic identity on a new community and their descendants for them to be permanently known as Harla. If we entertain this theory, why would this male not also teach his children this supposed ‘Ethio-Semitic’ language if he indeed was from that language group?
There are multiple cases where sedentary groups were assimilated by pastoral groups in the Horn and the rest of the world, yet they still retained knowledge about their ethnic and cultural origins pre-assimilation.
Why would the Harla be any different?
You missed my point, any place where the process of assimilation occurred, there is clear evidence of the assimilated group’s ethnic origins pre-assimilation.
lol Hararghe Oromo dialect was influenced by Geysinan due to their exposure with us for the past 500 years, what are you talking about? We literally taught them how to farm.
Yet not a single Harla remnant group found amongst the Oromo, Afar and the Somali has any trace of the Geysinan language. How do you explain that?
An entire distinct dialect is not ‘little evidence’, neither is a clear genealogical table of descent. I am open-minded and do welcome any evidence that shows they spoke a different language, traced their descent in a non-Somali fashion, and most importantly had (and have) remnants amongst modern groups in the Horn that reveal that they had a completely different origin from those that spoke af-Harlaad.
Can you provide this?
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