I have seen many times people claiming Harar to be the fourth holiest city in Islam. Why is this the case?

[Daadhi Tarree]

Quit the yapping and explain? Harla were around before the harari people formed so what were they then?

There’s other groups in the horn not just Somalis also Harla were the first in the harar plateau and harari is a new ethnicity

 

[Aseer]

There’s other groups in the horn not just Somalis also Harla were the first in the harar plateau and harari is a new ethnicity

Name them. And provide proof and backing for harla not being somali.

The Harla are literally mentioned as under Somali tribes in the Futuh:

In the chapter, “The Somali Tribes reach Harar”, a Somali commander says this, ‘This will never happen. If they want war, then we will assemble our armies from the people of Sim and from the Somali tribes: the tribe of Girri, the tribe of Habr Maqdi, the tribe of Harla, for our armies have been dispersed. How can we do as they wish? We shall not surrender the country to them.” (Futuh - P. 104)

 

[Daadhi Tarree]

Name them. And provide proof and backing for harla not being somali.

The Harla are literally mentioned as under Somali tribes in the Futuh:

In the chapter, “The Somali Tribes reach Harar”, a Somali commander says this, ‘This will never happen. If they want war, then we will assemble our armies from the people of Sim and from the Somali tribes: the tribe of Girri, the tribe of Habr Maqdi, the tribe of Harla, for our armies have been dispersed. How can we do as they wish? We shall not surrender the country to them.” (Futuh - P. 104)

Ngga why you lying Harla and somalis were always separate go argue wit the wall with your thick head

 

[Aseer]

Ngga why you lying Harla and somalis were always separate go argue wit the wall with your thick head

Its right there in the futuh al habash do you want me to provide more proof? You keep barking about how harla arent somalis but bring no proof, no evidence, no sources no nothing to back your claims

 

[Idilinaa]

There’s other groups in the horn not just Somalis also Harla were the first in the harar plateau and harari is a new ethnicity

Harla was 1 single Somali darood clan that lived between hawash and at end the of upper shabelle. They didn't even live in Harar. There is zero proof they was a seperate ethnicity as well.

Around the same place futuh places them:

There was multiple Somali agro-pastoral clans living in the hawash river around showa that acted as a border Baqulzar, Gatur, Warjac , Hargayah etc even sections of Geri were sedentary agro-pastoralists with Gedayah Geri in the showa area.

It is Oromo oral mythology that blows them up an makes them something more than they are and ascribes to them stuff they are not even responsible for building. There is no Harla kingdom at all, they were just 1 clan among many.

No sources says Somalis bordered Amharas

A recent Oxford academic study says Somalis pretty much dominated Showa and conquered the Amhara province and expanded from the Somali inhabited areas.. They are basing this on cultural and material evidence that connects it to Somali inhabited areas away from the highlands, as it underwent a cultural change.

This is pretty much confirmed by Al-Maqrizi who says the Walashma founders expanded from Jabarta and a local medieval chronicle document who detail them to be by from Awdal.

Al-Maqrizi literally says they came from northern Somalia (Jabarta region connected to Zeila) and gradually moved further inland to occupy Awfat.

Local manuscript on the History of Walashma confirms and details the same thing about them conquering Shoa and incorporating it with Awdal (Zeila province).

 

[NidarNidar]

Written sources can only go so far back, there are modern-day ruins next to Dirdhiba called Harrala, that are similar to the ones in Awdal, and we need more archaeological digs and DNA testing on these sites.

Harala ruin

Amud ruin

Abasa ruin.


Dir a settlement which according to Huntingford, may conceivably be modern day Dire Dawa. Huntingford, Historical Geography of Ethiopia, p. 122. (p)


It is likely, however, that the majority of the population at Harlaa came from the local area. The ceramic data suggest interaction with the local population or, more likely, the presence of a local population at Harlaa using ceramics with which they were familiar. Some 20 534 sherds of locally made pottery have been recovered, compared with 331 sherds of imported pottery (Tait Reference Tait2020). All the local ceramics are handmade and appear to have been fired in open bonfires. They have a similar fabric composition, with poorly sorted, coarse inclusions up to 1mm in size, and rarer larger inclusions up to 5mm. While a source has yet to be identified, these ceramics appear to have been produced using local clays. Earthenware/plainware (Figure 10A), usually red, comprise the largest proportion of wares (9725 sherds; 77.8 per cent), with black/brown burnished wares also relatively common (2250 sherds; 18 per cent), followed by light brown (369 sherds; 3 per cent) (Figure 10B). Other wares include black slipped with a red fabric (58 sherds; 0.5 per cent) and light brown slipped with a black fabric (nine sherds; 0.1 per cent) (Tait Reference Tait2020). Only 380 sherds (2.46 per cent) are decorated. Incised decoration (125 sherds; 32.9 per cent of decorated sherds) of simple horizontal lines or rows of dashes, or punctate (dot) decoration (73 sherds; 19.5 per cent) feature on all ware types. The most common decorative style (140 sherds; 36.8 per cent) is roughened line decoration, consisting of straight or zig-zag lines added to burnished wares after burnishing, but prior to firing (Figure 10C). The significance of this technique is unclear.

Vessel forms included carinated bowls (Figure 10B), bowls, jugs and jars with ring bases, large storage vessels (Figure 10A) and bowls with multiple legs attached to a flat plate or ring—so-called ‘stand bases’ (Figure 10D). Nine broad-rim categories have been identified, with simple (656 sherds; 40.9 per cent) (Figure 10C & E) and flat (459 sherds; 28.6 per cent) rims (Figure 10A & F) being the most common (Tait Reference Tait2020). Affinities exist with ceramic assemblages from both non-Muslim and Islamic sites. Carinated bowls and globular-bodied jars from Harlaa are of types also found at the Raré and Sourré-Kabanawa burial tumuli in the Chercher Mountains (Joussaume Reference Joussaume1980: 102, Reference Joussaume2014: 103–104), and pierced lug handles and grooved- and pricked-rim decoration resemble local ceramics from medieval Islamic town-sites in Somaliland, on the trade route from Harlaa to the Red Sea coast (see Curle Reference Curle1937; González-Ruibal et al. Reference González-Ruibal, de Torres, Franco, Ali, Shabelle, Barrio and Aideed2017).

Chercher, now called Chiro, was taken over by Oromo since the 16th century, has a sizable Gadabuursi community(Dir) in the city, who live with the Ittu Oromo Muslims and Jarso.


The edible crops identified at Harlaa, such as Hordeum sp. and Triticum sp., are suggestive of further population complexity. Crop remains that are local to Ethiopia, such as Teff (Eragrostis tef) and finger millet (Eleusine coracana), are notably absent. This situation is comparable with cultural development in northern Ethiopia, where the contemporaneous agricultural system was dominated by the cultivation of wheat, barley, legumes (e.g. Pisum abyssinicum, Lens culinaris, Cicer arietinum) and oil crops (e.g. Sesamum indicum, Linum usitatissimum), all of Middle Eastern origin (Beldados et al. Reference Beldados, Zewdu and Insoll2019). Zooarchaeological evidence also supports the existence of a cosmopolitan religious community or religious non-observance; warthog (Phacochoerus sp.) or bushpig (Potamochoerus sp.) would not likely have been consumed by observant Muslims. At Harlaa, the proportions of goat, cattle and sheep elements, along with the butchery evidence, resemble those found at multiple Islamic-period sites in Arabia, Mesopotamia and Iberia (c. eleventh to sixteenth centuries). This also suggests the presence of individuals at Harlaa who followed a more orthodox Muslim diet (Gaastra & Insoll Reference Gaastra and Insoll2020).

 

[Idilinaa]

Written sources can only go so far back, there are modern-day ruins next to Dirdhiba called Harrala, that are similar to the ones in Awdal, and we need more archaeological digs and DNA testing on these sites.

Written sources are more preferred. Went over it in another thread that there is no merit behind the Harla attributions and it's purely an Oromo invented mythology borrowed back and combined with local ones. The ruins were built by the state and who used local Somali man power. Not by one agro-pastoral clan, who btw didn't even live in some of those areas.

Read through these posts.:

I also don't think they are responsible for building the towns and ruined stone settlements. The act of building of towns and mosques etc is described in Futuh and a diverse group of state actors are tasked with the job with no mention given to Harla:

With Abu Bakr were forty knights from Balaw, with the sum Sakr and the sum Muhammad. He pacified it and its people remained on as peasant farmers for them. He built towns in it, and mosques.

Over it, the imam appointed Garad Sabr ad-Din,and built towns and mosques in it that are there today.' He also appointed Farasaham 4 All along with Farasaham Sultan, 'Adil, Samsu
and Takla over the land of Darha87' which extends from Bagemder to Gojjam. He
built towns and mosques there, and its people remained on as peasant fanners for
the Muslims.
Which isn't all that surprising you need capital investments , wealth and resources to build stone structures. So it's either wealthy individuals/merchants or the state who assemble money through taxation/commercial activity and who can acquire resources/man power to commission the building projects.

These stones structures and settlements continue spread out into Northern Somalia and those ones are not attributed to Harla and there is no local traditions mentioning them in the area.


Harla in historical sources are described as a sedentary agro-pastoral darood group living between the fertile upper shabelle river and awash plains



The attribution of those sites and others to them solely lie in mostly Oromos who expanded into the fertile plains where Harla was the dominant group among many other clans(who are also mentioned in Futuh) and assimilated them.

It would be equivalent to Oromos penetrating into the fertile rivers between Shabelle and Juba and assimilating the different raxanweyn & hawiye clans where the sedentary Geledi clan was dominant in the area in the 1800s and start attributing all the stuff in the area to Geledi. You get me?

They can't tell you anything when all they can tell you is who they remember was there before them last,
That's why it's more important to rely on historical documents than solely oral stories and oral stories tend to also be borrowed into neighboring groups as well, this is how the Taallo Tiriyaad (Monuments of Tirii) tradition has morphed into it

The author is wrong as well because he is trying locate the ruins inside oral stories by late comers (Oromo's) , which is then borrowed back into it's neighbors(Somali). When he needs to contextualize and prioritize written documented history to explain them and oral history can be used to compliment our understandings.

For example one of the ruins they named Harla was actually called Hoobad we know this from written texts that mention this walled city and it's named after a slope where it sits. It was a large cosmopolitan city and it was tied to the Awfat/Awdal or Walashma/Sa'ad Din polities. But if you asked the Oromos they can't tell you this, they just call random stuff harla. A piece of random rock laying there is Harla to them.

They are not tied to 1 specific lineage grouping like Harla. The harla nonsense is mythology, there is no harla kingdom or civilization.

It's also important to explain what goes into building of stones structures: It requires considerable amount of wealth, direction , control of resources, transportation, time investment, a large labor pool of workers, expertise, maintenance and it's projects undertaken by wealthy individuals or ruling elites who act's as patrons. It's not something one clan can be responsible for or peasant farmers.

The fact that villages/hamlets had houses made out of stones and not just cities and small towns should tell you how wealthy they got in that period and how expertise/resources was invested into a wider country side and not just concentrated in town centers.

The elders don't live past 100 years, so what they say is less reliable when it comes to events dealing with 500 years or so unless its backed by historical texts, because what's been passed by the word of mouth can be a subject to change and adoption . Especially when a new group moves or some disturbance happens.

The Harla attribution has been borrowed back into Somali from Oromos who came into the area and it blended in with Taallo Tiriyaad '' Monuments of Tirii '' Stories.

If you aren't familiar with the Monuments of Tiiri tradition this article is an introduction. https://www-bbc-com.translate.goog/...6kpo?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US

It features the same trope that they were mysterious giants who were cursed and built stone monuments:

And when they excavated those sites in Somaliland they just found recent Somali remains in them : and cautioned others not to lightly accept traditions which purport to deal with events of 500 or more years ago.

And even in NFD and Southern Somalia they tell the same story about a giants race of people being builders of stone works , monuments and wells but calls them Madanle: instead of Tiiri

This is the oral story they tell about Harla:

How can we tell it's been borrowed? Because the ''Taalo Tiiriyaad'' story is mentioned in all of Northern Somalia, and Madanle in the south and in those parts no mentions are given to Harla. They don't even connect them to it, but it features the same trope about giants being credited to build stuff etc.


It's specific to the Harar uplands where Oromo's expanded into . It has nothing to do with Harla sultanate , scholars bringing Islam or even Harla people, it just mythology and legends about pagan tribes being cursed and are giants before the founding of the Muslim tribes.

In the historical documents that relate to Harla, no mentions are given to a Harla sultanate , their regions are mentioned to be on the upper edge of the Harar highlands and Awash valley.

And Hobaad in Futuh which is called Ganda Harla by Oromos , is not mentioned to be even ruled by them or them living there. And also Amda Sayeon chronicles mentioned a number of different clan identities such Warjax , Gabal pastoralists cheiftans ec alongside the occupational terms like Temur & Semur not just Harla. Which shows you there is no real specific prominence given to them over other tribes, they are just one among many.

 

[Zak12]

@Idilinaa is there any explicit evidence of the Harla being identified as Somali outside of Arab Faqih?

 

[Idilinaa]

@Idilinaa is there any explicit evidence of the Harla being identified as Somali outside of Arab Faqih?

The text i shared which details the genealogy of the Awsa Emirs that they descend from Darod Somali clan.

 

[Zak12]

The text i shared which details the genealogy

Thank you, I'll read more into it.

Also, doesn't the futuh seperate Somalis and Harlas on multiple occasions? I've seen that as an argument that the Harla were a seperate ethnicity because they had their own military wing

 

[Step a side]

Thank you, I'll read more into it.

Also, doesn't the futuh seperate Somalis and Harlas on multiple occasions? I've seen that as an argument that the Harla were a seperate ethnicity because they had their own military wing

They did have their own military wing but that does not mean they were a separate ethnicity because we know from reading the Futuh they were led by Sultan Mohamed who was brother of amir Abu Bakr (Garaad of Hobat) and paternal cousin of Gurey. Fardowsa bint Ibrahim was the wife of Garaad Mataan of Geri who commanded the Somali devision. In a nutshell this family was tied to both divisions (Harla +Somali).

 

[Idilinaa]

Thank you, I'll read more into it.

Also, doesn't the futuh seperate Somalis and Harlas on multiple occasions? I've seen that as an argument that the Harla were a seperate ethnicity because they had their own military wing

It groups them with other Somali tribes in certain passages, in other passages they are grouped with the agro-pastoral clans and seperated, because the bedouin clans are headed by their own independant leaders while Harla along with the other sedentary ones are led by a one leader from Zarba a different clan.

So the speration is between bedouin and agro-pastoral sedentary clans. Not an ethnic one.
It's consistent with the distinction richard burton gives to Somalis in the area 500 years later.

Even in Futuh you can clearly see that Harla is just a Qabil and not an ethnicity. When they are mentioned alongside other clans , for example in this passage

Unless you also want to believe that Habr Maqdi and Geri are ethnicities also. You can't make any other sense of it.

Anyone positing that they are ethio-semetic will have hard time arguing that point. There is no ethio-semetic group divided into somali sub-clan structure . Not even the harari. Did they just delete the sub-clans that are mentioned in Futuh?


Harla and the other sedentary clans mentioned in Futuh are described as:
- As being joint led by 1 Sultan
- Harla is led by a Sultan/Leader from another tribe Zarba and not their own.

- ''Soomals''(Bedouin) clans are led each by their own independent Emirs.

This is exactly the same way in which Richard Burton explains the distinction between Sedentary Somali clans and Nomadic/Bedouin clans in the same area nearly 400 years later.

Somebody asked me the same question a previous thread: Have a read to a more detailed answer i gave:
They make occupational distinctions not ethnic ones since they are written as a connected group

 

[Aseer]

Harla was 1 single Somali darood clan that lived between hawash and at end the of upper shabelle. They didn't even live in Harar. There is zero proof they was a seperate ethnicity as well.

Around the same place futuh places them:

There was multiple Somali agro-pastoral clans living in the hawash river around showa that acted as a border Baqulzar, Gatur, Warjac , Hargayah etc even sections of Geri were sedentary agro-pastoralists with Gedayah Geri in the showa area.

It is Oromo oral mythology that blows them up an makes them something more than they are and ascribes to them stuff they are not even responsible for building. There is no Harla kingdom at all, they were just 1 clan among many.




A recent Oxford academic study says Somalis pretty much dominated Showa and conquered the Amhara province and expanded from the Somali inhabited areas.. They are basing this on cultural and material evidence that connects it to Somali inhabited areas away from the highlands, as it underwent a cultural change.

This is pretty much confirmed by Al-Maqrizi who says the Walashma founders expanded from Jabarta and a local medieval chronicle document who detail them to be by from Awdal.

Al-Maqrizi literally says they came from northern Somalia (Jabarta region connected to Zeila) and gradually moved further inland to occupy Awfat.

Local manuscript on the History of Walashma confirms and details the same thing about them conquering Shoa and incorporating it with Awdal (Zeila province).

@Daadhi Tarree why so quiet?

 

[Iluminate]

I think harar's inhabitants historically consisted predominantly of somalis and hararis.

 

[Zak12]

@Idilinaa @Step a side Now I'm curious about the Harla language/linguistics

IIRC, Richard Burton once stated he found a group in Somalia that spoke Af-Harlaad however I'm hoping for something more concrete and contemporary. Can you guys give me any Harla that had Somali namea or had Somali linguistic influences?

 

[Idilinaa]

@Idilinaa @Step a side What were Harla names like? Can you guys give me examples of any Somali ones?

Harla itself is a Somali name, i remember someone around here shared a source on it but can't really find it

So maybe @Step a side is more aware of it.

 

[Zak12]

Harla itself is a Somali name, i remember someone around here shared a source on it but can't really find it anymore.

Aside from that i don't think we have mentions of many Harla individuals from the past.

Really? The Futuh talks a lot about the Harla and name drops plenty of them but many seem to have Arabic or Ethiosemitic names

Not that the name is super important here, I'm hoping to find sources of the Harla having Somali linguistic affinity

 

[Idilinaa]

Really? The Futuh talks a lot about the Harla and name drops plenty of them but many seem to have Arabic or Ethiosemitic names

Not that the name is super important here, I'm hoping to find sources of the Harla having Somali linguistic affinity

It don't think they are ethiosemetic, but if even if they are, there are literally Somalis in Futuh like from the Marehan clan and other with Ethiosemetic names like Dawit and Goita Tedros so that doesn't prove anything, but the rest just inviduals with arabic names we all posses.

You are not going to find linguistic affinity in Futuh because he hardly gives any word from the language aside from mentioning ''Webi'' as a river in the language people use. or the use of certain Somali titles like Garad and Aw.

But yeah there is a post made in a seperate thread about the survivng Harla daroods dialect
You can read here:

Earliest mention of Somali

it's a large distance away from Harar The funny thing is that historical records indicate that the realm of the Harla/Adal extended as deep as Nugaal Valley yet we are somehow supposed to believe they were actually all Ethio-Semites despite the complete lack of Ethio-Semitic linguistic or...

www.somalispot.com

 

[Step a side]

@Idilinaa @Step a side Now I'm curious about the Harla language/linguistics

IIRC, Richard Burton once stated he found a group in Somalia that spoke Af-Harlaad however I'm hoping for something more concrete and contemporary. Can you guys give me any Harla that had Somali namea or had Somali linguistic influences?

The problem is that Futuh was not written by a Somali. The author makes few mistakes like claiming Garad Abun was Gurey’s brother (was actually his cousin). His real name is Garad Abun ibn Adash. Adash was brother of Ibrahim and the main competing lineage. Wesen Seged calls him the brother of Gurey he served under him, his maternal side are from Zarba like Sultan Mohamed.

Not too sure about these associations Hangool is making but he does come from galbeed and did find a lot of similarities with the sub sub Karanle tribes over there and some of the Harla mentioned in the Futuh

 

[Zak12]

Harla was 1 single Somali darood clan that lived between hawash and at end the of upper shabelle. They didn't even live in Harar. There is zero proof they was a seperate ethnicity as well.

Around the same place futuh places them:

There was multiple Somali agro-pastoral clans living in the hawash river around showa that acted as a border Baqulzar, Gatur, Warjac , Hargayah etc even sections of Geri were sedentary agro-pastoralists with Gedayah Geri in the showa area.

It is Oromo oral mythology that blows them up an makes them something more than they are and ascribes to them stuff they are not even responsible for building. There is no Harla kingdom at all, they were just 1 clan among many.




A recent Oxford academic study says Somalis pretty much dominated Showa and conquered the Amhara province and expanded from the Somali inhabited areas.. They are basing this on cultural and material evidence that connects it to Somali inhabited areas away from the highlands, as it underwent a cultural change.

This is pretty much confirmed by Al-Maqrizi who says the Walashma founders expanded from Jabarta and a local medieval chronicle document who detail them to be by from Awdal.

Al-Maqrizi literally says they came from northern Somalia (Jabarta region connected to Zeila) and gradually moved further inland to occupy Awfat.

Local manuscript on the History of Walashma confirms and details the same thing about them conquering Shoa and incorporating it with Awdal (Zeila province).

Do we know if the Walashma dynasty survived after the 16th century or was the Harar emirate not really its successor?