Is The Adal Sultan Abu Bakr Ibn Muhammad A Somali Or A Harari

[Three Moons]

The same way the boundaries of the lands of Saad ad Din are defined. You are doing mental gymnastics to reject the idea that the Somalis had their own land with their own cities.

Adal’s historic boundaries stretched into the undisputed Somali dominant cities such as Zayla, Berbera and as far as Cape Guardafui, these were core cities and territories of Adal with a predominant Somali character. Other Somali cities and settlements such as Maduna, Siyara, Abasa, Amud, Ferdowsa, Mayd, Galcadda, etc through archaeology have also been proven to have been an integral part of the Adal Empire, so nobody denied that.

This doesn’t mean the other vast traditional Somali territories in Africa that fell outside of the boundaries of Adal couldn’t have been referred to as ‘the Land of Somalis / nomads’ by the author, and still contain a ton of cities and towns maintained by a pastoralist society that Ahmed tried to bring into the fold.

You are trying to pigeonhole a people that owned a landmass the size of Western Europe into one neat all-encompassing zone, hence why I asked you to definite it clearly.

You want me to quote the several instances when Futuh mentions the Land of Somali? Imam Ahmed went to the land of the Somalis and destroyed their cities as mentioned above. Also when Hirabu killed one of the men of the Sultan, Imam and the Sultan went to the land of the Somalis. They stayed in Kidad once again before invading Bali.

You have no idea where this ‘Land of Somalis’ started or ended, for all we know he could have been marching into the Ogaden or towards Djibouti, which is why I asked you to definite its borders and reveal where a city like Kidad was located.

The definition of a nomad is one who does not have a permanent settlement. Kidad is a permanent settlement. Hence, the inhabitants of Kidad and other cities in the lands of the Somali are? Not nomads.

Petra was a major city, yet the Nabataeans still had a majority population of nomads, and the word Arab had that exact meaning for almost 1000 years since the Age of the Assyrians.

You refuse to acknowledge this historical pattern, why is that?

ok but then if Somali did not exclusively refer to nomads, then that means that the whole argument of “agriculturalist and pastoralist”, “Harla and Somali” falls apart. That was Shimbiris’s whole case; to prove that Somali referred to nomads exclusively to suggest that Harla were agriculturalists. It just doesn’t make sense with all this in mind.

It makes perfectly sense, because the term would have a dual meaning, and one that was on a steady transition to a fully ethnic one centuries later. I have no idea why you are playing intentionally ignorant with regards to his analogy to the words ‘Bedouin’ or the term ‘Arab’. Its pretty straight forward.

I never denied Somali stakes in Adal history as well; I just think the Somalis online tend to overextend their role in it by deleting the existence of Hararis inside. My whole point of coming to this forum was to reintroduce the idea that Hararis weren’t just “Xabeshi settlers.” As is evident in Futuh, Somali clan leaders were pretty influential in Adal politics. Sultans needed Somalis to hold onto power, run away into their lands for protection. Somali clan leaders were given very honorable titles like Goyta (which is a really huge honor). My only question is where is the old Somali settlements mentioned in Futuh? I was thinking northern Galbed but there are many empty ruins there and the land of Zayla was still in the land of Saad ad-Din. That’s why it’s possible Galbed was Gedaya where you mentioned there was a Girri leader there. I feel like land of Somalis could have been the green lands of Sanaag but I’m wondering if that’s too far.

I can respect that, though its clear the Somali role spanned from the elite to the knight, from the nomad to the agriculturalist, to the urbanite, and from the merchant to the sailor, and the scholar. There are over 40 historic stone cities littered across Somalia and even more across Greater Somalia, add the multiple caravan routes that crisscrossed the region with forts, mosques, minor settlements and caravanserais, and its clear the future looks bright for Somali archaeology and the Horn in general.

 

[oogabooga]

Adal’s historic boundaries stretched into the undisputed Somali dominant cities such as Zayla, Berbera and as far as Cape Guardafui, these were core cities and territories of Adal with a predominant Somali character. Other Somali cities and settlements such as Maduna, Siyara, Abasa, Amud, Ferdowsa, Mayd, Galcadda, etc through archaeology have also been proven to have been an integral part of the Adal Empire, so nobody denied that.

You know the archeologists that studied all those settlements, the Spanish ones, came to the conclusion that only the settlements in Awdal were tied with the land of Adal, and they suggested that all the settlements east of Adal were in the Land of Somali. Zeila and Berbera are Somali dominant now, but we are not sure in the time of Adal, as Zeila was under administered by an appointed official of the Sultan. Warajar Abogn was considered the ruler of Zeila during Futuh. After Imam Ahmed, Harari manuscripts show that the leaders of Adal still exerted control over Awsa and Zeila, and they had power struggles. Even in the Harari Emirate, the father of one Amir was given the title Aftal Garad as a symbol of honor, a remnant of the past. In Awsa, that’s the whole reason why the Afar claim Harla; they assimilated the Harla living there.

Here is the map that the head archeologist of the Somali ruins project posted:

Petra was a major city, yet the Nabataeans still had a majority population of nomads, and the word Arab had that exact meaning for almost 1000 years since the Age of the Assyrians.

You refuse to acknowledge this historical pattern, why is that?

Bruh. I’m just trying to dispel the notions that Somalis were not ONLY nomads. They were both nomads and settled people. This shows that Somali wasn’t an occupational title.

It makes perfectly sense, because the term would have a dual meaning, and one that was on a steady transition to a fully ethnic one centuries later. I have no idea why you are playing intentionally ignorant with regards to his analogy to the words ‘Bedouin’ or the term ‘Arab’. It’s pretty straight forward.

You aren’t understanding what I’m saying. For his “Arab and Bedouin” analogy to work, you need to show that Somali ONLY meant nomad. Bedouins weren’t settled people like the Arabs. BUT since there is evidence of Somalis having permanent settlements, this means that Somali DIDN’T mean only nomads. Hence the analogy of “Arab and Bedouin” and “Harla and Somali” doesn’t work.

I can respect that, though its clear the Somali role spanned from the elite to the knight, from the nomad to the agriculturalist, to the urbanite, and from the merchant to the sailor, and the scholar. There are over 40 historic stone cities littered across Somalia and even more across Greater Somalia, add the multiple caravan routes that crisscrossed the region with forts, mosques, minor settlements and caravanserais, and its clear the future looks bright for Somali archaeology and the Horn in general.

Yeah there were Somali elite and Somalis were an active role in the country, but to say they were everything is a stretch. The Spaniard archeology team believes that Somali settlements were used as trade stops along the way, and were a focal meeting spot between the nomads and the townspeople. I am of the belief that the Tumaal were the people of those towns in the Land of Somali, and the pastoralists met there. You should read their works.

 

[Ximan iyo Xadeed]

Adal’s historic boundaries stretched into the undisputed Somali dominant cities such as Zayla, Berbera and as far as Cape Guardafui, these were core cities and territories of Adal with a predominant Somali character. Other Somali cities and settlements such as Maduna, Siyara, Abasa, Amud, Ferdowsa, Mayd, Galcadda, etc through archaeology have also been proven to have been an integral part of the Adal Empire, so nobody denied that.

This doesn’t mean the other vast traditional Somali territories in Africa that fell outside of the boundaries of Adal couldn’t have been referred to as ‘the Land of Somalis / nomads’ by the author, and still contain a ton of cities and towns maintained by a pastoralist society that Ahmed tried to bring into the fold.

You are trying to pigeonhole a people that owned a landmass the size of Western Europe into one neat all-encompassing zone, hence why I asked you to definite it clearly.



You have no idea where this ‘Land of Somalis’ started or ended, for all we know he could have been marching into the Ogaden or towards Djibouti, which is why I asked you to definite its borders and reveal where a city like Kidad was located.



Petra was a major city, yet the Nabataeans still had a majority population of nomads, and the word Arab had that exact meaning for almost 1000 years since the Age of the Assyrians.

You refuse to acknowledge this historical pattern, why is that?



It makes perfectly sense, because the term would have a dual meaning, and one that was on a steady transition to a fully ethnic one centuries later. I have no idea why you are playing intentionally ignorant with regards to his analogy to the words ‘Bedouin’ or the term ‘Arab’. Its pretty straight forward.



I can respect that, though its clear the Somali role spanned from the elite to the knight, from the nomad to the agriculturalist, to the urbanite, and from the merchant to the sailor, and the scholar. There are over 40 historic stone cities littered across Somalia and even more across Greater Somalia, add the multiple caravan routes that crisscrossed the region with forts, mosques, minor settlements and caravanserais, and its clear the future looks bright for Somali archaeology and the Horn in general.

Maydh was under Harti and we were never a part of Adal

 

[Three Moons]

You know the archeologists that studied all those settlements, the Spanish ones, came to the conclusion that only the settlements in Awdal were tied with the land of Adal, and they suggested that all the settlements east of Adal were in the Land of Somali.

That is there own personal interpretation of the data, which is fine, but contemporary accounts of Adal’s borders stretched as far Cape Guardafui, and this team never had a chance to excavate areas like the Nugaal Valley ruins, or any other parts of modern Puntland. I acknowledge their studies mainly for the material discoveries.

Zeila and Berbera are Somali dominant now, but we are not sure in the time of Adal,

For someone that doesn’t like his people from being erased out of their own history, you sure don’t have an issue attempting this with the Somali people.

as Zeila was under administered by an appointed official of the Sultan. Warajar Abogn was considered the ruler of Zeila during Futuh.

What does that prove? If Sultan Ura’i Abun could be a Somali, what makes you think Warajar Abun couldn’t be? I looked it up and his background is never explicitly mentioned or even hinted at.

After Imam Ahmed, Harari manuscripts show that the leaders of Adal still exerted control over Awsa and Zeila, and they had power struggles. Even in the Harari Emirate, the father of one Amir was given the title Aftal Garad as a symbol of honor, a remnant of the past.

That’s why I don’t acknowledge a neologism like ‘Aussa Imamate’, also we have examples like Cairo and Damascus which were predominant Arab cities despite Kurdish and Albanian dynasties ruling those cities later on.

In Awsa, that’s the whole reason why the Afar claim Harla; they assimilated the Harla living there.

Yet their absorbed Harla maintained Somali genealogies. It would be absurd to suggest they joined a new ethnicity and randomly traced back a Somali lineage.

Here is the map that the head archeologist of the Somali ruins project posted:View attachment 326088

That’s a very restricted version of Adal’s borders. These researchers would be stretching Abyssinia to Merca if they found just one, just one, medieval reference making that claim

Bruh. I’m just trying to dispel the notions that Somalis were not ONLY nomads. They were both nomads and settled people. This shows that Somali wasn’t an occupational title.

Then Tumal wasn’t an occupational title either, nor was Biyomal, since they all had elements that overlapped with the urbanites and nomads, but we know they were all occupational derived titles, even if one of them became victorious over time as a ethnic denomination.

You aren’t understanding what I’m saying. For his “Arab and Bedouin” analogy to work, you need to show that Somali ONLY meant nomad.

Actually we don’t, that is you placing such a restriction on history, when since records began there have been numerous nomadic societies that maintained cities, and who’s ethnic sobriquet was used concurrently with the occupational habit of being a nomad.

One doesn’t cancel out the other.

Bedouins weren’t settled people like the Arabs.

See the example of the Nabataeans who were both at the same time.

BUT since there is evidence of Somalis having permanent settlements, this means that Somali DIDN’T mean only nomads. Hence the analogy of “Arab and Bedouin” and “Harla and Somali” doesn’t work.

Again, if the Arabs could be nomads and have cities at the same time, and still have the word Arab be equivalent to a Bedouin even in the noble Quran, what makes you think a similar historical pattern vis-a-vi the term Somali is impossible?

Yeah there were Somali elite and Somalis were an active role in the country, but to say they were everything is a stretch. The Spaniard archeology team believes that Somali settlements were used as trade stops along the way, and were a focal meeting spot between the nomads and the townspeople. I am of the belief that the Tumaal were the people of those towns in the Land of Somali, and the pastoralists met there. You should read their works.

We weren’t everything, the ancestors of the Harari people were an extremely important companion people, as were the Hadiyya and other groups that have gone extinct. The Tumals were present across the Somali peninsula.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

Maydh was under Harti and we were never a part of Adal

There are chronicles saying it was a vassal or otherwise autonomous but subject to Adal

 

[Three Moons]

There are chronicles saying it was a vassal or otherwise autonomous but subject to Adal

Imagine an Arab or a Turk went out of their way to point out that their magaalo or tuulo weren’t part of the Caliphate or Empire.

Sigh.

 

[oogabooga]

That is there own personal interpretation of the data, which is fine, but contemporary accounts of Adal’s borders stretched as far Cape Guardafui, and this team never had a chance to excavate areas like the Nugaal Valley ruins, or any other parts of modern Puntland. I acknowledge their studies mainly for the material discoveries.

You have to keep in mind the geographical constraint and logistics. Don’t you think Sanaag is too far for Adal to enforce their authority? Like when Hirabu ran away to his own country.

For someone that doesn’t like his people from being erased out of their own history, you sure don’t have an issue attempting this with the Somali people.

it’s not about erasing Somali people’s history, it’s just that the Somali history narrative is more mainstream compared to the nearly extinct Harari people that when the other side of the story is brought forth, it seems as though it’s taking away from the “original” story. It’s not my intention to steal history, just to make it more clear.

What does that prove? If Sultan Ura’i Abun could be a Somali, what makes you think Warajar Abun couldn’t be? I looked it up and his background is never explicitly mentioned or even hinted at.

Yeah name alone means nothing, as is evident with Somalis having Harari names.

Although I would like to take a bit of space to talk about Richard Burton’s experience in Zeila. When he arrives, he visits the shrine of the Sheikh Abu Zarbay. He allegedly came from Hadramaut to spread Islam across the Horn. However, with Futuh we know that there is a Harla tribe called Zarba. This means that Zarbay is probably the correct way of saying the tribe name, and it logically makes more sense. It feels wack to say Zarba, it is grammatically correct to say Zarbay.
Another thing you see is the Hyena hill is called “Warabalay.” Funny cause yesterday we were talking about the etymology of Badlay. Warabalay means “above the hyena.”
When going to see the well of Zeila, they stumbled upon a sand bed for rainwater full of mud called “Takhushshah.” It literally means “it should make you stronger.”
The gate that Richard Burton existed was called Ashurbara. It’s probably a small shift of the word “Ashurbari.” Bari means gate, and is clearly evident in Harar.

That’s why I don’t acknowledge a neologism like ‘Aussa Imamate’, also we have examples like Cairo and Damascus which were predominant Arab cities despite Kurdish and Albanian dynasties ruling those cities later on.

That probably happened to Awsa and Zeila late stage of Adal. The Afar assimilated the Harla elite and military that migrated to Awsa after the Oromo invasions. They literally dipped. That’s around the same time Zeila built its walls.

Yet their absorbed Harla maintained Somali genealogies. It would be absurd to suggest they joined a new ethnicity and randomly traced back a Somali lineage.

Which genealogy? Source?

That’s a very restricted version of Adal’s borders. These researchers would be stretching Abyssinia to Merca if they found just one, just one, medieval reference making that claim

not really, they use historical sources as well to determine estimates. However, I’d say the borders on that map for Adal is too exaggerated. The state of Dawaro and Fatagar and Bali were literally occupied by Abysinnia. Dawaro was east of the Awash, same with Bali. They literally marched from the land of Somalis to Bali.

Then Tumal wasn’t an occupational title either, nor was Biyomal, since they all had elements that overlapped with the urbanites and nomads, but we know they were all occupational derived titles, even if one of them became victorious over time as a ethnic denomination.

But what I’m saying is that even though Soofmal was originally pastoralists, by the time futuh came, the tumal and biyomal were probably a part of a Somali ethnicity because of the fact that the Somalis of that time had urbanites as well.

Actually we don’t, that is you placing such a restriction on history, when since records began there have been numerous nomadic societies that maintained cities, and who’s ethnic sobriquet was used concurrently with the occupational habit of being a nomad.

One doesn’t cancel out the other.

I don’t think we are understanding each other. Can you sum up your points regarding this topic? I feel like we are going in circles or I’m not understanding something ur trying to say.

 

[Three Moons]

You have to keep in mind the geographical constraint and logistics. Don’t you think Sanaag is too far for Adal to enforce their authority? Like when Hirabu ran away to his own country.

Hiruba most likely fled into a specific part of the Ogaden or perhaps a region further west of Harar that was eventually lost to the Oromo after the Futuh. The way Imam Ahmed instantly returns to join Sultan Umar Din or re-establishes his march towards Abyssinia makes Sanaag very unlikely. The latter region however would have definitely been under Adal’s domain and its claimed territories.

This is where archaeology, retracing caravan routes and historic maps comes in handy, but the precarious situation in the country made such coast to coast research difficult.

it’s not about erasing Somali people’s history, it’s just that the Somali history narrative is more mainstream compared to the nearly extinct Harari people that when the other side of the story is brought forth, it seems as though it’s taking away from the “original” story. It’s not my intention to steal history, just to make it more clear.

I have no issues with Hararis using Adal’s history and heritage to fend off Oromization or Habeshafication, it’s why I’m not edit-warring you on that other platform. There is a serious threat when it comes to Harari continuation, and I sympathise with you guys.

I just can’t stand when people act like a major group such as the Somali people were just wandering through the sands of time, always in the vicinity of a major famous city inside their own homeland but never the founders, never the rulers, and never the majority inhabitants. People can try this colonial ruse with a single city but 40 historic cities in Somalia?

Come on.

Yeah name alone means nothing, as is evident with Somalis having Harari names.

Although I would like to take a bit of space to talk about Richard Burton’s experience in Zeila. When he arrives, he visits the shrine of the Sheikh Abu Zarbay. He allegedly came from Hadramaut to spread Islam across the Horn. However, with Futuh we know that there is a Harla tribe called Zarba. This means that Zarbay is probably the correct way of saying the tribe name, and it logically makes more sense. It feels wack to say Zarba, it is grammatically correct to say Zarbay.
Another thing you see is the Hyena hill is called “Warabalay.” Funny cause yesterday we were talking about the etymology of Badlay. Warabalay means “above the hyena.”
When going to see the well of Zeila, they stumbled upon a sand bed for rainwater full of mud called “Takhushshah.” It literally means “it should make you stronger.”
The gate that Richard Burton existed was called Ashurbara. It’s probably a small shift of the word “Ashurbari.” Bari means gate, and is clearly evident in Harar.

Interesting, which page is this in Burton’s First Footsteps? Zarbah or Zirbah was located two days east of Harar if I remember correctly. The distance was substantial enough for the council of Sultan Umar Din to be brave enough to start plotting a Red Sea exile to Makkah for Imam Ahmed and his wife.

That probably happened to Awsa and Zeila late stage of Adal. The Afar assimilated the Harla elite and military that migrated to Awsa after the Oromo invasions. They literally dipped. That’s around the same time Zeila built its walls.

Which genealogy? Source?

The Harla that assimilated into the Afar still traced themselves back with a Somali lineage, and mind you the author of this study below then claims that it was as a result of Somali assimilation, in the 16th century, without any corroborating evidence, but this is illogical, as even in a scenario of a ‘double-assimilation’, the Harla would still have a family tree prior to their supposed ‘Somali + Afar assimilation’ that we today could reference but its an uninterrupted Somali lineage, and the same goes for the Harla that were absorbed by another Somali clan like the Isa.

If they were indeed a non-Somali group absorbed by the Somali, they wouldn’t have had an existing Somali lineage prior to joining the Isa clan. In other examples we know that it wasn’t uncommon for Afars to assimilate Somalis in the periphery areas of Greater Somalia. The Afars with Somali heritage in the Islands and on the coast of Eritrea could also trace their lineage in a precise manner back to a Somali clan from the far Northeastern part of Somalia.

SOURCE
​

not really, they use historical sources as well to determine estimates. However, I’d say the borders on that map for Adal is too exaggerated. The state of Dawaro and Fatagar and Bali were literally occupied by Abysinnia. Dawaro was east of the Awash, same with Bali. They literally marched from the land of Somalis to Bali.

The medieval geographic sources that mapped out Adal’s borders did so consulting on the ground sources i.e individuals that had actually travelled the region when Adal was a major power. If you look at the Levant, the Crusaders occupied that area for a substantial period, but the caliphs and Sultans never stopped considering it as part of their domains. I reckon the same sentiment would have been case for the old Ifat provinces still under Abyssinian occupation at the time.

But what I’m saying is that even though Soofmal was originally pastoralists, by the time futuh came, the tumal and biyomal were probably a part of a Somali ethnicity because of the fact that the Somalis of that time had urbanites as well.

This is very unlikely, as even terms like German, Italian, Arab, had not yet reach their modern contexts, why would a term like Somali, five hundred years ago have had such an accelerated process that it was already a full-fledged ethnic sobriquet?

I don’t think we are understanding each other. Can you sum up your points regarding this topic? I feel like we are going in circles or I’m not understanding something ur trying to say.

• That a historic name like Somali, Arab or Kazakh could both refer to the lifestyle habits of a nomad and that same specific group known by that term could also still maintain and own cities. It doesn’t contradict the etymological process and development of that specific name, and how it was perceived at certain times by medieval authors.
  
  
• That same group could also still be ‘ethnically’ related in the modern sense to another group with a different lifestyle through language, lineages and culture even if the latter group wasn’t explicitly known by that same term, which over the centuries has morphed into a moniker for a vast ethnic group.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

@Three Moons Just a small add-on a lot more Canfar clans have recorded Somali ancestry as well not only the Somali Harla assimilated amongst them. Several of their subs are Warsangeli alone including the current Afar prime minister of Djibouti.

 

[Laser]

@oogabooga you said dir meant plain in harari right? I stumbled over this Dictionary who have another word for plain in harari Which's agobar:

Lelsu Dictionary doesn't have the word Dir nor did burton mention it, why you making shit up?

Update: lelsu mentioned the word Dirre which sounds like dir (i didn't see it the first time).
But after looking at it, it's actually not a semitic word but a loanword from oromo language. And we know oromos came to harari lands after 16th century meaning the word Dir mentioned in the futuh was somali not harari cuz the word still didn't exist in harari language.

"Ga.=galla=oromo".

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

@oogabooga you said dir meant plain in harari right? I stumbled over this Dictionary who have another word for plain in harari Which's agobar:View attachment 326268
Lelsu Dictionary doesn't have the word Dir nor did burton mention it, why you making shit up?

I knew he was making stuff up lol

 

[oogabooga]

Hiruba most likely fled into a specific part of the Ogaden or perhaps a region further west of Harar that was eventually lost to the Oromo after the Futuh. The way Imam Ahmed instantly returns to join Sultan Umar Din or re-establishes his march towards Abyssinia makes Sanaag very unlikely. The latter region however would have definitely been under Adal’s domain and its claimed territories.

This is where archaeology, retracing caravan routes and historic maps comes in handy, but the precarious situation in the country made such coast to coast research difficult.



I have no issues with Hararis using Adal’s history and heritage to fend off Oromization or Habeshafication, it’s why I’m not edit-warring you on that other platform. There is a serious threat when it comes to Harari continuation, and I sympathise with you guys.

I just can’t stand when people act like a major group such as the Somali people were just wandering through the sands of time, always in the vicinity of a major famous city inside their own homeland but never the founders, never the rulers, and never the majority inhabitants. People can try this colonial ruse with a single city but 40 historic cities in Somalia?

Come on.



Interesting, which page is this in Burton’s First Footsteps? Zarbah or Zirbah was located two days east of Harar if I remember correctly. The distance was substantial enough for the council of Sultan Umar Din to be brave enough to start plotting a Red Sea exile to Makkah for Imam Ahmed and his wife.



The Harla that assimilated into the Afar still traced themselves back with a Somali lineage, and mind you the author of this study below then claims that it was as a result of Somali assimilation, in the 16th century, without any corroborating evidence, but this is illogical, as even in a scenario of a ‘double-assimilation’, the Harla would still have a family tree prior to their supposed ‘Somali + Afar assimilation’ that we today could reference but its an uninterrupted Somali lineage, and the same goes for the Harla that were absorbed by another Somali clan like the Isa.

If they were indeed a non-Somali group absorbed by the Somali, they wouldn’t have had an existing Somali lineage prior to joining the Isa clan. In other examples we know that it wasn’t uncommon for Afars to assimilate Somalis in the periphery areas of Greater Somalia. The Afars with Somali heritage in the Islands and on the coast of Eritrea could also trace their lineage in a precise manner back to a Somali clan from the far Northeastern part of Somalia.

View attachment 326255
SOURCE
​

The medieval geographic sources that mapped out Adal’s borders did so consulting on the ground sources i.e individuals that had actually travelled the region when Adal was a major power. If you look at the Levant, the Crusaders occupied that area for a substantial period, but the caliphs and Sultans never stopped considering it as part of their domains. I reckon the same sentiment would have been case for the old Ifat provinces still under Abyssinian occupation at the time.



This is very unlikely, as even terms like German, Italian, Arab, had not yet reach their modern contexts, why would a term like Somali, five hundred years ago have had such an accelerated process that it was already a full-fledged ethnic sobriquet?

• That a historic name like Somali, Arab or Kazakh could both refer to the lifestyle habits of a nomad and that same specific group known by that term could also still maintain and own cities. It doesn’t contradict the etymological process and development of that specific name, and how it was perceived at certain times by medieval authors.
  
  
• That same group could also still be ‘ethnically’ related in the modern sense to another group with a different lifestyle through language, lineages and culture even if the latter group wasn’t explicitly known by that same term, which over the centuries has morphed into a moniker for a vast ethnic group.

Yeah fair I understand. Hopefully more research is done. I hope they can get their hands on some inscriptions.

 

[oogabooga]

@oogabooga you said dir meant plain in harari right? I stumbled over this Dictionary who have another word for plain in harari Which's agobar:View attachment 326268
Lelsu Dictionary doesn't have the word Dir nor did burton mention it, why you making shit up?

Update: lelsu mentioned the word Dirre which sounds like dir (i didn't see it the first time).
But after looking at it, it's actually not a semitic word but a loanword from oromo language. And we know oromos came to harari lands after 16th century meaning the word Dir mentioned in the futuh was somali not harari cuz the word still didn't exist in harari language.
View attachment 326271
"Ga.=galla=oromo".

I thought agobar meant “to tend to sheeps.” Because I know agabari means “shepherd,” and I’ve heard agobar in verb form “agobara.” Is that from Henry Salt’s dictionary? I was trying to find it.

Regarding dirre, I slightly doubt it’s Oromo etymology because the word “dirre” has the suffix “-e” which relates the root word to the first person. So Dirre literally means “my Dir,” and that means “my plain.” When you say “dirre be hal,” you are saying “it is in my plain.” So I doubt it’s Oromo etymology. Keep in mind Oromos assimilated many people and their language has lots of assimilated words. All the way in Arsi their main city is Assela, meaning “He climbed,” in reference to it being situated on a mountain. They literally have a cultural headwear over there call “gufta,” which Hararis do. We have a whole tradition around gufta called “gufta mogad” in a wedding.

 

[Step a side]

You have to keep in mind the geographical constraint and logistics. Don’t you think Sanaag is too far for Adal to enforce their authority? Like when Hirabu ran away to his own country.



Although I would like to take a bit of space to talk about Richard Burton’s experience in Zeila. When he arrives, he visits the shrine of the Sheikh Abu Zarbay. He allegedly came from Hadramaut to spread Islam across the Horn. However, with Futuh we know that there is a Harla tribe called Zarba. This means that Zarbay is probably the correct way of saying the tribe name, and it logically makes more sense. It feels wack to say Zarba, it is grammatically correct to say Zarbay.
Another thing you see is the Hyena hill is called “Warabalay.” Funny cause yesterday we were talking about the etymology of Badlay. Warabalay means “above the hyena.”
When going to see the well of Zeila, they stumbled upon a sand bed for rainwater full of mud called “Takhushshah.” It literally means “it should make you stronger.”
The gate that Richard Burton existed was called Ashurbara. It’s probably a small shift of the word “Ashurbari.” Bari means gate, and is clearly evident in Harar.

Do you have anything substantial that we can look at and debate about? All you have is “Harari” ways of saying things. Your whole argument is based on forcing artificial Harari etymologies

Hawiye countryside which is walking distance from Harar is where the Marehan chief Goita Tederous escaped to, after committing a small felony and feared the Imam's retribution during a critical junction, hence hiding among the Imam's extended kinsmen. An envoy from the Imam and some sharifs along with them arrived at Hawiye country where mediation took place and Goita Tederous was spared, but relieved from his duty by bringing his nephew in his place to lead his subclan into War.


Futuh Al Habesha lists several Karanle sub-clans (though slightly mistranslated) such as Balaw, Ciye, Erer, Shurbul, Sanbure etc towns and villages such as Hobat, Daakhato, Erer Valley and Fiambiro yet I don’t delve into it as it can cause controversy. Even Harari clans such as Abong and Adash are literally named after figures like Garaad Abun and Garaad Adash. It’s so obvious.

The Zerba were Harla (farmers) most likely from Bale as that’s the principality were some of Gasa family used to govern. Sultan Mohammed is reer Gasa. Bale Somalis are farmers. Awwsa Imamate founder that came with bunch of Harla’s (seperate from the already established Harla’s) was governor of Bale in case you didn’t know.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

Do you have anything substantial that we can look at and debate about? All you have is “Harari” ways of saying things. Your whole argument is based on forcing artificial Harari etymologies

Hawiye countryside which is walking distance from Harar is where the Marehan chief Goita Tederous escaped to, after committing a small felony and feared the Imam's retribution during a critical junction, hence hiding among the Imam's extended kinsmen. An envoy from the Imam and some sharifs along with them arrived at Hawiye country where mediation took place and Goita Tederous was spared, but relieved from his duty by bringing his nephew in his place to lead his subclan into War.


Futuh Al Habesha lists several Karanle sub-clans (though slightly mistranslated) such as Balaw, Ciye, Erer, Shurbul, Sanbure etc towns and villages such as Hobat, Daakhato, Erer Valley and Fiambiro yet I don’t delve into it as it can cause controversy. Even Harari clans such as Abong and Adash are literally named after figures like Garaad Abun and Garaad Adash. It’s so obvious.

The Zerba were Harla (farmers) most likely from Bale as that’s the principality were some of Gasa family used to govern. Sultan Mohammed is reer Gasa. Bale Somalis are farmers. Awwsa Imamate founder that came with bunch of Harla’s (seperate from the already established Harla’s) was governor of Bale in case you didn’t know.

That kind of controversy is welcome we need all available data whether it makes certain people cry or not

 

[oogabooga]

Do you have anything substantial that we can look at and debate about? All you have is “Harari” ways of saying things. Your whole argument is based on forcing artificial Harari etymologies

Hawiye countryside is where the Marehan chief Goita Tederous escaped to, after committing a small felony and feared the Imam's retribution during a critical junction, hence hiding among the Imam's extended kinsmen. An envoy from the Imam and some sharifs along with them arrived at Hawiye country where mediation took place and Goita Tederous was spared, but relieved from his duty by bringing his nephew in his place to lead his subclan into War.


Futuh Al Habesha lists several Karanle sub-clans (though slightly mistranslated) such as Balaw, Ciye, Erer, Shurbul, Sanbure etc towns and villages such as Hobat, Daakhato, Erer Valley and Fiambiro yet I don’t delve into it as it can cause controversy. Even Harari clans such as Abong and Adash are literally named after figures like Garaad Abun and Garaad Adash. It’s so obvious.

The Zerba were Harla (farmers) most likely from Bale as that’s the principality were some of Gasa family used to govern. Sultan Mohammed is reer Gasa. Bale Somalis are farmers. Awwsa Imamate founder that came with bunch of Harla’s (seperate from the already established Harla’s) was governor of Bale in case you didn’t know.

Says the guy whose only source is Haile Selassie’s palace historian and Microsoft Word. Unlike you, I actually had a successful dialogue and learned quite a lot from this thread, like the etymologies of Somali and better understanding the heterogeneity of Adal lands.

 

[Step a side]

Says the guy whose only source is Haile Selassie’s palace historian and Microsoft Word. Unlike you, I actually had a successful dialogue and learned quite a lot from this thread, like the etymologies of Somali and better understanding the heterogeneity of Adal lands.

Original Futuh in Harar's museum, the short chronicles of Sarsa, Minas, Awssa, Kitaabul Mawsuuc, carbon dated lineage papers, Kebra Negast and Ba Alawi who stated 4 ancestors of Gragn etc. Shami in particular collated all this and preceded you in research to confirm his Karanle identity. You are a nobody while better men dedicated to their craft have done the hard work already in researching this. Can you come up with a 1000 paged book discussing everything from start to finish? Sabagh, Manfred Kropp, Berhanu Kamal, Paulitchke etc all corroborate this. It's an overwelming case with over 7 scholars in agreement and institutionalised in Ethiopian Emperor's circles and schools. I went a step further and posted the regional influence of Karanle spanning centuries in terms of 1. trade (Imey was the largest town between Berbera and Xamar), 2. religion (the biggest tariqa of Harar was founded by Karanle mashayikh), 3. settlement (Hawiye Guda and Erer Hawiya districts) and 4. power (Karanle were the first Somalis of Hararge to engage in the slave trade and are described by colonial powers as the most powerful entity in 1876).

 

[Laser]

I thought agobar meant “to tend to sheeps.” Because I know agabari means “shepherd,” and I’ve heard agobar in verb form “agobara.” Is that from Henry Salt’s dictionary? I was trying to find it.

Regarding dirre, I slightly doubt it’s Oromo etymology because the word “dirre” has the suffix “-e” which relates the root word to the first person. So Dirre literally means “my Dir,” and that means “my plain.” When you say “dirre be hal,” you are saying “it is in my plain.” So I doubt it’s Oromo etymology. Keep in mind Oromos assimilated many people and their language has lots of assimilated words. All the way in Arsi their main city is Assela, meaning “He climbed,” in reference to it being situated on a mountain. They literally have a cultural headwear over there call “gufta,” which Hararis do. We have a whole tradition around gufta called “gufta mogad” in a wedding.

2nd time coping your way out of facts, idk why expect anyone to believe you while dictionaries you shared contradict you.

 

[oogabooga]

2nd time coping your way out of facts, idk why expect anyone to believe you while dictionaries you shared contradict you.

Bruh what? I literally explained you that agabari is shepherd and the act of the shepherd is agobara. It’s possible that agobar and agobara are tied, because a shepherd needs a plain to graze.

I literally explained to you basic Harari grammar and you are calling me a liar. Let me list you other ways to you the suffix -e:
1. qurre - “my vicinity”
2. Zere - “my uncle”
3. Miye - “my water”
4. Iraze - “my clothes”
5. Garre- “my home”

Don’t be saying cope when I gave you a Harari grammar lesson.

 

[Step a side]

Bruh what? I literally explained you that agabari is shepherd and the act of the shepherd is agobara. It’s possible that agobar and agobara are tied, because a shepherd needs a plain to graze.

I literally explained to you basic Harari grammar and you are calling me a liar. Let me list you other ways to you the suffix -e:
1. qurre - “my vicinity”
2. Zere - “my uncle”
3. Miye - “my water”
4. Iraze - “my clothes”
5. Garre- “my home”

Don’t be saying cope when I gave you a Harari grammar lesson.

No one here needs Harari lessons. Harar was a Somali capital before Meneliks invasion.