Is The Adal Sultan Abu Bakr Ibn Muhammad A Somali Or A Harari

[daljirkadahsoon]

@Three Moons Skillfully destroyed these revisionist arguments as per usual mashAllah

 

[Three Moons]

Bro you are pushing it with the Dir stuff. It’s really straightforward but you want to avoid it. Dir most likely has a Harari etymological origin as is evident from the mention of Webiga Dir in Futuh. Dir in both cases is a geographical term, and this can even be the case with Dire Dawa (but I’m not gonna start another tangent). Point is, it’s just the most likely. It doesn’t mean that Dir were Harari, because names can be adopted.

What? Show us evidence that the modern Harari refer to that specific river as the ‘The River Dir’. If there is a clear reference to a river Rhine in a medieval European manuscript and let’s say the Germans are the only group to still refer to that specific river as the ‘The River Rhine’ would you dispute its German etymological origins when no historic alternative exists?

Your answer will reveal if you’re an honest debater with an open mind or are simply here on this forum to push an agenda.

Why did Arab Faqih need to add “Gedaya” before the Girri, whilst in other places he just mentions Girri alongside Somali names?

Its a Nisbah, like Al-Somali or al-Zayla’i. That knight and commander was from the people and region of Gedaya but also related to the Girri. Neither group is tied to any modern group except the Somali people.

And Gedaya is still in use as a name amongst Somalis, see ‘Kadiye’.

lol the burden of proof is on the one who makes a claim.

No, you are the one who claimed the absence of a specific modern ethnic group in a historical setting, yet all the evidence and scholars reveal a different reality, hence I challenged you to invoke any historical reference, but you didn’t.

both those men are from the 15th century. Hararis called Somalis “Simur” before that.

This is disingenuous, the 15th century manuscript that mentioned the Simur was a Solomonic manuscript not a Harari one. There is no evidence that prior to the maps of Ibn Majid or Al-Mahri that the Hararis called Somalis ‘Tumur or Simur’. That is a literary discovery that came centuries later, and since Amharic and Geysinan are both Semitic, its not a surprise that the Amhara ruled Solomonic dynasty would use a similar word to refer to the Somalis, even if it fell out of use years later.

Everything before referred to the region as Bilad al-Barbar. If Hararis were able to name the Somalis “Simur” early on, what does that say about the origins of the Harari?

Here is the thing, as I pointed out before, there is no evidence as of yet that the Hararis referred to us as such in the 15th century or prior to that. The link between Simur and Tumur was made by Enrico Cerulli in the 19th century, hence you can’t superimpose a 19th century reference on events that happened 400 years earlier to create a ‘root word’.

Barbar literally means “the one that is blessed” in the Harari language. It relates to our greeting “Barakh.”

Hafun literally is a derivative of the Harari word “hafasa,” which means to scoop up. Hafun means “in bulk.” I couldn’t find the derivative in the dictionary but we would be told growing up, “hafunzo ginna.” That means throw all of it out.

Linguistics is a key factor in understanding the people of the past. The Harari language is very helpful in understanding the past dynamic. Even a small boat used in Maldives called “doni” is the same in Geysinan, and “doni” is also a color in Geysinan. You know that all these very logical definitions and etymologies are not a coincidence. One or two, I could understand why you’d think that. But these are plentiful.

This is some elite level waffling brother. What is the etymology for Atlantis in Geysinan?

This refers to the Sultan, read it again. A Sultan came to the Imam, and it discusses his background.

Please reread the Futuh; Ura’i Abun was one of the emirs that was part of Sultan Umar Din’s core council deciding the alms-tax and had been plotting against Imam Ahmed. He reconciled with him while the latter had retired amongst the Somali, and received delegations bringing news or looking for disputes to be settled.

Bro read it. It’s literally saying citizens and Somalis. That means Somalis were not native/citizens. The Harla aren’t mentioned explicitly because it is taken as an obvious fact that they are the citizens.

Here you are making the same mistake of taking a modern version of the term ‘citizen’ and superimposing its current meaning on to the past, when the author in a different passage also makes a distinction between the ‘citizens and the poor’. I guess using your logic we can now deduce that all of Adal’s ’citizens’ were therefore ‘rich’?

Citizen was most likely a reference to a group that is settled i.e has a home, in contrast to a nomad who doesn’t, or a destitute person inside the city that lacks one.

Again, this just shows that the citizens of the Adal Sultanate were Harla agriculturalists. Do you not ask why Harla are not mentioned explicitly like the Somali? Why is it not “citizens” and “Harla?”

Your question has already been answered above. What you should ponder upon instead is why are there so many contemporary ties between the Harla and the Somalis, and only the Somalis but no other modern group?

What you should ponder upon is why these same Somalis possess more Adalite era cities than any other modern group in the Horn, even Harar prior to Menelik’s conquest had a predominant Somali population. This does not mesh well with your theory that we are not native or non-citizens.

Just because Yemen wasn’t part of the Fatimid Caliphate doesn’t mean the latter wasn’t led by an Arab dynasty and didn’t have Arab citizens within its empire, similarly the Somali people occupied a vast area of Africa, and Adal at times did not extend itself to all of that territory in centralised manner, even if all of the people living within that sphere consider themselves kin and despite the political kinship between Adal and Mogadishu.

Come on man, use your brain. It’s not complicated. Arab Faqih explicitly mentioned Somali tribes and Harla tribes. Harla are not mentioned with a foreigner aspect unlike “citizens and Somalis.” All the Somali tribes mentioned in the Futuh are also today pastoralists. No evidence of farming culture and knowledge. Yet you want to tell me Harla are just Somali farmers? This is a sped argument at this point. Somalis had their own land called the Land of Somali where they had their own settlements and rivers.

If you want to continue with this nonsense theory, better start providing down Somali agricultural history. If not, then this is an infutile argument.

As already demonstrated several times above, the Harla are on multiple occasions ranked alongside the Somalis or as a ‘Somali tribe’. This came straight from a medieval - on the ground - source, not a Ethiopianist Pankhurst transmutation of a primary work. You cannot pick and choose what you like about the Futuh, and dismiss what you don’t like, that’s not how it works.

As for ‘farming’, the Girri, Bartirre and Yabarray clans mentioned in the Futuh are still clans that cultivate and farm today in the exact same area that they were active in during the Futuh. How will you explain away this agricultural tradition?

 

[oogabooga]

What? Show us evidence that the modern Harari refer to that specific river as the ‘The River Dir’. If there is a clear reference to a river Rhine in a medieval European manuscript and let’s say the Germans are the only group to still refer to that specific river as the ‘The River Rhine’ would you dispute its German etymological origins when no historic alternative exists?

There is no modern Harari that refers to the river as the River Dir. In Futuh btw there are two rivers; Awash and Dir. Even then, the logic you provided above does not take into account the fact that the Somali etymology when compared to the Harari one, does not hold up. What does Dir mean in Af Somali? “To send,” or “tree bark.” That doesn’t make sense compared to the Harari word Dir which means “plain.” Plain is a geographic term is it not?

Its a Nisbah, like Al-Somali or al-Zayla’i. That knight and commander was from the people and region of Gedaya but also related to the Girri. Neither group is tied to any modern group except the Somali people.

And Gedaya is still in use as a name amongst Somalis, see ‘Kadiye’.

Gedaya is a family name in Harar. Yes Gedaya is a nisbah because Gedaya was a province.

No, you are the one who claimed the absence of a specific modern ethnic group in a historical setting, yet all the evidence and scholars reveal a different reality, hence I challenged you to invoke any historical reference, but you didn’t.

I said Berber doesn’t equate to Somali because there is no direct evidence regarding it. You said there is evidence that describes it to the T. What is that evidence?

Here is the thing, as I pointed out before, there is no evidence as of yet that the Hararis referred to us as such in the 15th century or prior to that. The link between Simur and Tumur was made by Enrico Cerulli in the 19th century, hence you can’t superimpose a 19th century reference on events that happened 400 years earlier to create a ‘root word’.

creating a root word wasn’t my point. My point was that if there is no mention of Somali before the 15th century, then you can’t just say there is direct evidence that Berber means Somali.

This is some elite level waffling brother. What is the etymology for Atlantis in Geysinan?

your only excuse is that it’s waffle.

Citizen was most likely a reference to a group that is settled i.e has a home, in contrast to a nomad who doesn’t, or a destitute person inside the city that lacks one.

This rationale doesn’t work though, because in Futuh when Imam Ahmed turned around to clamp down on people in the Land of the Somali, he destroyed their cities and plundered their property. What does that say about Somalis? People who have cities aren’t nomads.

What you should ponder upon instead is why are there so many contemporary ties between the Harla and the Somalis, and only the Somalis but no other modern group?

There is ties to other groups as well, like Oromos and Afar. This is all because the collapse of Adal due to Oromo migrations caused a huge refugee problem and hence they either assimilated into other safer systems or died.

As already demonstrated several times above, the Harla are on multiple occasions ranked alongside the Somalis or as a ‘Somali tribe’. This came straight from a medieval - on the ground - source, not a Ethiopianist Pankhurst transmutation of a primary work. You cannot pick and choose what you like about the Futuh, and dismiss what you don’t like, that’s not how it works.

No they aren’t, this is outright lying. When the army of Imam Ahmed loses, do the Harla and Somalis not blame one another? What does that suggest? And when Arab Faqih lists the tribes, he mentions the Harla tribes and the Somali ones. Barzara, Zaman Bara, Charir, Arab Takh, Aleqa. Those are the Harla tribes. Marehan, Habr Maqdi, Geri, Bartirri, those are Somali tribes.

You guys are trying to relegate the meaning of Somali to nomads when that is just not true, otherwise the Somali “nomads” wouldn’t have cities of their own.

As for ‘farming’, the Girri, Bartirre and Yabarray clans mentioned in the Futuh are still clans that cultivate and farm today in the exact same area that they were active in during the Futuh. How will you explain away this agricultural tradition?

Girri = giraffe
Bartirri = blessed foundations
Yabarre = the swift ones

And you are not giving me any sources of their agricultural tradition. Can you respond to me once you bring me sources on their agricultural tradition? Otherwise this discussion is becoming infutile.

 

[Three Moons]

There is no modern Harari that refers to the river as the River Dir.

Finally we are making progress.

In Futuh btw there are two rivers; Awash and Dir.

Its time for you to take a 8 hour nap and recharge bro You do know that this is the same river that stretched from Damot to the salt sea in the vicinity of Zayla right (i.e modern Djibouti) and was a stone throw away from the city of Harar? A single river can have multiple names.

Even then, the logic you provided above does not take into account the fact that the Somali etymology when compared to the Harari one, does not hold up. What does Dir mean in Af Somali? “To send,” or “tree bark.” That doesn’t make sense compared to the Harari word Dir which means “plain.” Plain is a geographic term is it not?

What makes more sense etymologically; your theory where a river was named after a waterless geographic term like ‘plain’ or a river that was named after a major clan family from that specific region?

To call a river after a word like ‘plains’ would be equal to calling a desert a ‘waterfall’ and then pester people with that etymology. That is what you are doing. Are you proud of yourself?

Gedaya is a family name in Harar. Yes Gedaya is a nisbah because Gedaya was a province.

It would be interesting to see a Gedaya from Harar do a 23andMe test, be prepared to add banana to your spicy rice sxb.

I said Berber doesn’t equate to Somali because there is no direct evidence regarding it.

There is no ‘direct evidence’ to the contrary either. If I and several authors over the span of several thousand years described a forest of palm trees in place A, but don’t specifically call them palm-trees but do describe all of their attributes, and then 2000 years later those same trees with the same attributes are still there, you cannot start peddling crackpot theories about historic baobab trees in place A, when all evidence points to a historic continuum of palm-trees.

You said there is evidence that describes it to the T. What is that evidence?

How about;

• The multi-millennia long camel tradition, even depicted in Rock art?
  
  
• The multi-millennia long seafaring tradition?
  
  
• The continues usage of the ancient Beden ship by the Somali people?
  
  
• The singular population of people that stretched from Mogadishu to Zayla, which were considered by a world traveller like Ibn Battuta as one country and as one and the same people?
  
  
• The description of the historic attires that are completely in sync with traditional Somali fashion?
  
  
• The designation of the Indian Ocean and Red Sea coasts of the Horn as Barr al-Sumal in the Middle Ages?
  
  
• The Bilad al-Barbar sobriquet being retained in the Somali city of Berbera, and prior to the British presence, in the Gulf of Berbera?
  
  
• The over 40 stone cities stretching from coast to coast in the historic Somali homeland?
  
  
• The genetic uniformity of the Somali people?
  
  
• The coast to coast Somali lingua franca?
  
  
• The coast to coast observation of the same madhab that was described in the Middle Ages?

Should I continue?

creating a root word wasn’t my point. My point was that if there is no mention of Somali before the 15th century, then you can’t just say there is direct evidence that Berber means Somali.

I demonstrated that Bilad al-Barbar and Barr al-Sumal were used interchangeably as early as the 15th century. Its absurd that you want us to dismiss this concrete historic primary source in favour of your modern ‘barbar’ Geysinan crackpot theory.

your only excuse is that it’s waffle.

You backed it up with zero sources, come on man. This is Chicken and Waffles level waffling, this is Waffle House fully drenched waffles type of waffling, you have gone way beyond suugo-science, you are a whole Oogabooga bakery producing unlimited waffles.

This rationale doesn’t work though, because in Futuh when Imam Ahmed turned around to clamp down on people in the Land of the Somali, he destroyed their cities and plundered their property. What does that say about Somalis? People who have cities aren’t nomads.

Tell that to the nomadic Mongols and their many cities, or the Arab nomads and their many pre-Islamic cities, such as Petra. In-fact look up the original meaning of the word Arab.

There is ties to other groups as well, like Oromos and Afar.

None of them stretch back to the 16th century, when the Harla were a major power and force, in-fact neither of those ethnicities were mentioned in the Futuh, IIRC and most definitely not in relation to the Harla like the Somali were.

This is all because the collapse of Adal due to Oromo migrations caused a huge refugee problem and hence they either assimilated into other safer systems or died.

And somehow even the Harla that were absorbed by the Afars and the Oromo held onto Somali clan lineages and dialects, but not Geysinan, or Afar or Oromo attributes.

Hmmm.

No they aren’t, this is outright lying. When the army of Imam Ahmed loses, do the Harla and Somalis not blame one another? What does that suggest?

That they are competitive and have a occupational rivalry, simple as that. Mind you in the Futuh, there was also a rivalry between the Girri and the Marehan, does that mean we can now consider one of them as not being Somali?

And when Arab Faqih lists the tribes, he mentions the Harla tribes and the Somali ones. Barzara, Zaman Bara, Charir, Arab Takh, Aleqa. Those are the Harla tribes. Marehan, Habr Maqdi, Geri, Bartirri, those are Somali tribes.

Why do you leave no room for these tribes of Harla to be in reference to place-names like districts and farming towns, the way the tribe of Zarba was also a district? Are you that set in your ways?

You guys are trying to relegate the meaning of Somali to nomads when that is just not true, otherwise the Somali “nomads” wouldn’t have cities of their own.

Again, all of the nomadic steppe empires also had cities. Similarly an Arab could be a urban citizen, a Bedouin and the term Arab itself could still refer to a nomad roaming the desert and be used interchangeably with the term badawi, its not mutually exclusive.

You, however, refuse to even entertain the slight possibility of an equivalent history with regards to the term Somali because of the widespread ramifications this will have on so much of the glorious history of the Horn.

I get it.

Girri = giraffe
Bartirri = blessed foundations
Yabarre = the swift ones

And you are not giving me any sources of their agricultural tradition. Can you respond to me once you bring me sources on their agricultural tradition? Otherwise this discussion is becoming infutile.

“Cultivation, as has been said, is possible on the high ground in the fairly fertile soil of north-western Somaliland where in some places the annual rainfall is as much as twenty inches. The most westerly of the northern cultivating Somali are the Bartire, Yabarre, and Geri (all Daarood)1 inhabiting the Jigjiga-Harar region of Ethiopia where they form a Somali wedge amongst the agricultural Galla”. ( P. 102 - A Pastoral Democracy, I.M Lewis)

I’m pretty sure @Step a side also had a couple more references of the Karanle and other groups practicing farming in that specific region, but I don’t recall the exact thread.

 

[Zak12]

My point was that if there is no mention of Somali before the 15th century,

C'mon dude, I already said Al Idrisi(11th century writer) blatantly talked about the Hawiye.

Chinese records from the 9th century also mention a name "Popali", which referred to the people living in northern Somalia. @killerxsmoke also made a thread about Chinese Song dynasty records from way before the 15th century that talked about Somalis too

 

[oogabooga]

Finally we are making progress.



Its time for you to take a 8 hour nap and recharge bro You do know that this is the same river that stretched from Damot to the salt sea in the vicinity of Zayla right (i.e modern Djibouti) and was a stone throw away from the city of Harar? A single river can have multiple names.



What makes more sense etymologically; your theory where a river was named after a waterless geographic term like ‘plain’ or a river that was named after a major clan family from that specific region?

To call a river after a word like ‘plains’ would be equal to calling a desert a ‘waterfall’ and then pester people with that etymology. That is what you are doing. Are you proud of yourself?



It would be interesting to see a Gedaya from Harar do a 23andMe test, be prepared to add banana to your spicy rice sxb.



There is no ‘direct evidence’ to the contrary either. If I and several authors over the span of several thousand years described a forest of palm trees in place A, but don’t specifically call them palm-trees but do describe all of their attributes, and then 2000 years later those same trees with the same attributes are still there, you cannot start peddling crackpot theories about historic baobab trees in place A, when all evidence points to a historic continuum of palm-trees.



How about;

• The multi-millennia long camel tradition, even depicted in Rock art?
  
  
• The multi-millennia long seafaring tradition?
  
  
• The continues usage of the ancient Beden ship by the Somali people?
  
  
• The singular population of people that stretched from Mogadishu to Zayla, which were considered by a world traveller like Ibn Battuta as one country and as one and the same people?
  
  
• The description of the historic attires that are completely in sync with traditional Somali fashion?
  
  
• The designation of the Indian Ocean and Red Sea coasts of the Horn as Barr al-Sumal in the Middle Ages?
  
  
• The Bilad al-Barbar sobriquet being retained in the Somali city of Berbera, and prior to the British presence, in the Gulf of Berbera?
  
  
• The over 40 stone cities stretching from coast to coast in the historic Somali homeland?
  
  
• The genetic uniformity of the Somali people?
  
  
• The coast to coast Somali lingua franca?
  
  
• The coast to coast observation of the same madhab that was described in the Middle Ages?

Should I continue?



I demonstrated that Bilad al-Barbar and Barr al-Sumal were used interchangeably as early as the 15th century. Its absurd that you want us to dismiss this concrete historic primary source in favour of your modern ‘barbar’ Geysinan crackpot theory.



You backed it up with zero sources, come on man. This is Chicken and Waffles level waffling, this is Waffle House fully drenched waffles type of waffling, you have gone way beyond suugo-science, you are a whole Oogabooga bakery producing unlimited waffles.





Tell that to the nomadic Mongols and their many cities, or the Arab nomads and their many pre-Islamic cities, such as Petra. In-fact look up the original meaning of the word Arab.



None of them stretch back to the 16th century, when the Harla were a major power and force, in-fact neither of those ethnicities were mentioned in the Futuh, IIRC and most definitely not in relation to the Harla like the Somali were.



And somehow even the Harla that were absorbed by the Afars and the Oromo held onto Somali clan lineages and dialects, but not Geysinan, or Afar or Oromo attributes.

Hmmm.



That they are competitive and have a occupational rivalry, simple as that. Mind you in the Futuh, there was also a rivalry between the Girri and the Marehan, does that mean we can now consider one of them as not being Somali?



Why do you leave no room for these tribes of Harla to be in reference to place-names like districts and farming towns, the way the tribe of Zarba was also a district? Are you that set in your ways?



Again, all of the nomadic steppe empires also had cities. Similarly an Arab could be a urban citizen, a Bedouin and the term Arab itself could still refer to a nomad roaming the desert and be used interchangeably with the term badawi, its not mutually exclusive.

You, however, refuse to even entertain the slight possibility of an equivalent history with regards to the term Somali because of the widespread ramifications this will have on so much of the glorious history of the Horn.

I get it.



“Cultivation, as has been said, is possible on the high ground in the fairly fertile soil of north-western Somaliland where in some places the annual rainfall is as much as twenty inches. The most westerly of the northern cultivating Somali are the Bartire, Yabarre, and Geri (all Daarood)1 inhabiting the Jigjiga-Harar region of Ethiopia where they form a Somali wedge amongst the agricultural Galla”. ( P. 102 - A Pastoral Democracy, I.M Lewis)

I’m pretty sure @Step a side also had a couple more references of the Karanle and other groups practicing farming in that specific region, but I don’t recall the exact thread.

This is getting into so many different tangents and I would like to summarize my thoughts after reading @Shimbiris 's thread in depth. He touched upon some important points like the origin of the word Somali, but I feel like there were a bit of inconsistencies with his theory. Here is what I think:

1. In the Land of Somali, there were cities and towns and rivers. When Imam Ahmed went to seize control of some Somali tribes, he went to their lands and plundered it. Then Girri complained Habr Maqdi was plundering them so Imam Ahmed went a second time and "The Imam defeated them and plundered their wealth a second time, destroying their cities which he destroyed to ashes..." This is clear cut evidence that Somali does not mean Bedouin; they had their own urban developments.
2. Yes Soofmaal is probably the origins of the word Somali, but this does not mean that all Somalis were Bedouins. It just shows what they valued most and their origins. Garad Matan was referred to as "Somali." Yiberri was referred to as a "Somali tribe." Ahmed Girri was referred to as a "Somali." Sultan Muhammad of Zarba wasn't. This shows that although the heart of the Somali was in pastoralism, they adapted over time.
3. The provinces of Adal were not homogenous in ethnicity. There could have been Somali urbanites that integrated into Harla society. The assimilation is suggested by the adoption of Harari names and the anointment of some Somali leaders with significant Harari titles like Goita. Borders are not rigid and there is intermixing like Imam Ahmed did with Garad Matan. Also keep in mind the Habashi converts in the land of Sim.
   

With this, it can be seen that the word Somali, although has its origins in the beloved pastoralism, the nature of the Somali changed to the point where they were involved in the politics and economy of the country.

 

[Step a side]

Really sad when your entire identity and history revolves around a single medieval town

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

@oogabooga 'Bartire' does not mean blessed foundation lol it means the one who wiped a place out- i.e it is a reference to great military strength.

Bar is 'a place' and tire- is the conjugated form of a verb to destroy/wipe out.

I believe it is a common Afro-Asiatic root as 'Bar' in Arabic is also land i.e 'Bar as Sumal' for which Somalia was named.

The similar but distinct Berbera and the epithet 'Barbar' traces its ultimate origins to Punt and the hieroglyphs in Egypt referring to 'Brbrt' - it is 1000s of years older in its origin than any possible Geysinan meaning.

A giraffe is geri not 'girri'

Still waiting for any answer to my many questions I'll take it that you are simply incapable of answering.

So far you've told us the following:

Ethnic Somalis parachuted into the Somali Peninsula from a mysterious 'Land of the Somali'.

They seem to be a Schrödinger's cat present and absent all at the same time. Whenever any known sultanate or document is mentioned, they mysteriously disappear.

Some mighty jinns they must be to inhabit 1 million sq km and number 45 million plus and yet be totally absent from the annals of history

In any case I am looking forward to the discovery of more Arab hagiographies with undisputably Somali names and we will see what revisionists have to say then

 

[oogabooga]

@oogabooga 'Bartire' does not mean blessed foundation lol it means the one who wiped a place out- i.e it is a reference to great military strength.

Bar is 'a place' and tire- is the conjugated form of a verb to destroy/wipe out.

I believe it is a common Afro-Asiatic root as 'Bar' in Arabic is also land i.e 'Bar as Sumal' for which Somalia was named.

A giraffe is geri not 'girri'

Still waiting for any answer to my many questions I'll take it that you are simply incapable of answering.

I’m not trying to have a billion discussions at the same time, the reason why I summarized my thoughts was because there was too many tangents and I have a life.

Bar is not land in Af Somali. You are combining etymologies from two different languages.

Tiri is a very similar meaning in both Af Somali and Geysinan, meaning foundation/root.

Bartirri must have been a good or very honorable tribe to get such a name.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

I’m not trying to have a billion discussions at the same time, the reason why I summarized my thoughts was because there was too many tangents and I have a life.

Bar is not land in Af Somali. You are combining etymologies from two different languages.View attachment 326071
Tiri is a very similar meaning in both Af Somali and Geysinan, meaning foundation/root.

Bartirri must have been a good or very honorable tribe to get such a name.

The 'million tangents' you mention have the relevant historical context I suppose that would be too much though you only deal in Schrödinger's cats right?

Bar is also a word for place in Somali any Somali here can confirm the meaning of this sentence: ' Barti baan kaga tegay'

First of all their name is Bartire not Bartirri.

 

[oogabooga]

The 'million tangents' you mention have the relevant historical context I suppose that would be too much though you only deal in Schrödinger's cats right?

Bar is also a word for place in Somali any Somali here can confirm the meaning of this sentence: ' Barti baan kaga tegay'

First of all their name is Bartire not Bartirri.

if you are so hellbent on me thinking I’m a wimp, provide me which argument you would like to continue.

Are you sure their name is Bartire? British documents referred to them as Bartirri so I wanna confirm.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

if you are so hellbent on me thinking I’m a wimp, provide me which argument you would like to continue.

Are you sure their name is Bartire? British documents referred to them as Bartirri so I wanna confirm.

This whole argument was based on how a colonial spelled their name??!

Lol their name is Bartire. Search with this spelling and you will see a lot. They used to have a very large population and were the ruling section of Absame helped by their agro-pastoralist decision but lost large numbers due to wars and other causes.

 

[oogabooga]

The similar but distinct Berbera and the epithet 'Barbar' traces its ultimate origins to Punt and the hieroglyphs in Egypt referring to 'Brbrt' - it is 1000s of years older in its origin than any possible Geysinan meaning.

You know that means absolutely nothing right? It’s like you saying foreigners mentioning Somali in their texts and you saying that Soofmaal isn’t the etymology cause they say Somali.

In any case I am looking forward to the discovery of more Arab hagiographies with undisputably Somali names and we will see what revisionists have to say then

Can’t find any in Futuh? I got you. In the chapter where it names the knights of Imam Ahmed, here is the list:
1. Hussein al-Gaturi (Gaturi is still a family name in Harar)
2. Zaharbui Mohammed (Zahara means “the one who went” and Boi like in “boi iraz.”)
3. Koshim Abu Bakr (Koshim Garad was a title in the Harari emirate)
4. Farasaham Sultan bin Ali from the tribe of Yamli (Yamli means “fulfill”)
5. Abu Bakr Qecchin (Qecchin means thin as explained by Futuh and in the Harari language)
The rest have Arabic names so I ignored.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

You know that means absolutely nothing right? It’s like you saying foreigners mentioning Somali in their texts and you saying that Soofmaal isn’t the etymology cause they say Somali.



Can’t find any in Futuh? I got you. In the chapter where it names the knights of Imam Ahmed, here is the list:
1. Hussein al-Gaturi (Gaturi is still a family name in Harar)
2. Zaharbui Mohammed (Zahara means “the one who went” and Boi like in “boi iraz.”)
3. Koshim Abu Bakr (Koshim Garad was a title in the Harari emirate)
4. Farasaham Sultan bin Ali from the tribe of Yamli (Yamli means “fulfill”)
5. Abu Bakr Qecchin (Qecchin means thin as explained by Futuh and in the Harari language)
The rest have Arabic names so I ignored.

It means a lot actually it means your Geysinan etymology for it is complete BS

 

[oogabooga]

This whole argument was based on how a colonial spelled their name??!

Lol their name is Bartire. Search with this spelling and you will see a lot. They used to have a very large population and were the ruling section of Absame helped by their agro-pastoralist decision but lost large numbers due to wars and other causes.

Yeah makes sense, if you are fully committed to agriculture you are a sitting duck. I just still have an inkling even if Bartirre is the Somali etymology, because it’s such a based name.

 

[oogabooga]

It means a lot actually it means your Geysinan etymology for it is complete BS

How come? In fact the Egyptians used to call the lands “Ta Netjer,” the land of the blessed. My etymology is literally “the one that is blessed.” It can’t get closer than that.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

How come? In fact the Egyptians used to call the lands “Ta Netjer,” the land of the blessed. My etymology is literally “the one that is blessed.” It can’t get closer than that.

The 'Brbrt' is an name for the ethnicity in the land not the land's name.

Same land the Greeks would also know as Barbaria and the Arabs as Bilad al Barbar!

Historical continuity from ancient times til now.

 

[Three Moons]

This is getting into so many different tangents and I would like to summarize my thoughts after reading @Shimbiris 's thread in depth. He touched upon some important points like the origin of the word Somali, but I feel like there were a bit of inconsistencies with his theory. Here is what I think:

I’m just answering each of your points, if you’re not interested in my replies, then I will let you be.

1. In the Land of Somali, there were cities and towns and rivers. When Imam Ahmed went to seize control of some Somali tribes, he went to their lands and plundered it. Then Girri complained Habr Maqdi was plundering them so Imam Ahmed went a second time and "The Imam defeated them and plundered their wealth a second time, destroying their cities which he destroyed to ashes..." This is clear cut evidence that Somali does not mean Bedouin; they had their own urban developments.

Where does this so-called ‘Land of Somalis’ start and end? Where does this supposed land overlap with the realm of Adal and where was it excluded? Where were cities such as Kidad located?

It has also been pointed out to you several times that nomads historically throughout the world maintained cities, and some of the most famous ones in-fact, why do you ignore this historical pattern?

1. Yes Soofmaal is probably the origins of the word Somali, but this does not mean that all Somalis were Bedouins. It just shows what they valued most and their origins. Garad Matan was referred to as "Somali." Yiberri was referred to as a "Somali tribe." Ahmed Girri was referred to as a "Somali." Sultan Muhammad of Zarba wasn't. This shows that although the heart of the Somali was in pastoralism, they adapted over time.

Nobody said that all Somalis were Bedouin, only that the term Somali most likely had a dual meaning at the time of the Futuh and then in the succeeding centuries acquired the full ethnic dimension that we know it as today. See the historical development of the terms ‘German’ or ‘Arab’. At different times both sobriquets excluded vast sections of individuals and states that would be considered ‘German’ or ‘Arab’ in a modern context, yet medieval sources did not explicitly referred to them as such.

1. The provinces of Adal were not homogenous in ethnicity. There could have been Somali urbanites that integrated into Harla society. The assimilation is suggested by the adoption of Harari names and the anointment of some Somali leaders with significant Harari titles like Goita. Borders are not rigid and there is intermixing like Imam Ahmed did with Garad Matan. Also keep in mind the Habashi converts in the land of Sim.

With this, it can be seen that the word Somali, although has its origins in the beloved pastoralism, the nature of the Somali changed to the point where they were involved in the politics and economy of the country.

I have no problems with Hararis staking a claim in Adal history, in-fact I encourage it, since several major groups that were never Adalite kin are seeking to swallow that community up. I just dislike when people intentionally deny the paramount influence and impact the Somali people had in Northeast Africa, and use the strangest theories, that are contradicted by primary sources, genetics, linguistics, and archaeology, to advance their agenda.

 

[oogabooga]

The 'Brbrt' is an name for the ethnicity in the land not the land's name.

Same land the Greeks would also know as Barbaria and the Arabs as Bilad al Barbar!

Historical continuity from ancient times til now.

Yeah Barbar refers to any noun (person, place or thing). Barbar literally means “the [noun] that is blessed.”

You know Hararis still use the old name for Phonecians “qanani?” It’s used in the Harari language to mean “spoiled,” because the Phonecians were rich and weak.

 

[oogabooga]

Where does this so-called ‘Land of Somalis’ start and end? Where does this supposed land overlap with the realm of Adal and where was it excluded? Where were cities such as Kidad located?

It has also been pointed out to you several times that nomads historically throughout the world maintained cities, and some of the most famous ones in-fact, why do you ignore this historical pattern?

The same way the boundaries of the lands of Saad ad Din are defined. You are doing mental gymnastics to reject the idea that the Somalis had their own land with their own cities. You want me to quote the several instances when Futuh mentions the Land of Somali? Imam Ahmed went to the land of the Somalis and destroyed their cities as mentioned above. Also when Hirabu killed one of the men of the Sultan, Imam and the Sultan went to the land of the Somalis. They stayed in Kidad once again before invading Bali.

The definition of a nomad is one who does not have a permanent settlement. Kidad is a permanent settlement. Hence, the inhabitants of Kidad and other cities in the lands of the Somali are? Not nomads.

Nobody said that all Somalis were Bedouin, only that the term Somali most likely had a dual meaning at the time of the Futuh and then in the succeeding centuries acquired the full ethnic dimension that we know it as today. See the historical development of the terms ‘German’ or ‘Arab’. At different times both sobriquets excluded vast sections of individuals and states that would be considered ‘German’ or ‘Arab’ in a modern context, yet medieval sources did not explicitly referred to them as such.

ok but then if Somali did not exclusively refer to nomads, then that means that the whole argument of “agriculturalist and pastoralist”, “Harla and Somali” falls apart. That was Shimbiris’s whole case; to prove that Somali referred to nomads exclusively to suggest that Harla were agriculturalists. It just doesn’t make sense with all this in mind.

I have no problems with Hararis staking a claim in Adal history, in-fact I encourage it, since several major groups that were never Adalite kin are seeking to swallow that community up. I just dislike when people intentionally deny the paramount influence and impact the Somali people had in Northeast Africa, and use the strangest theories, that are contradicted by primary sources, genetics, linguistics, and archaeology, to advance their agenda.

I never denied Somali stakes in Adal history as well; I just think the Somalis online tend to overextend their role in it by deleting the existence of Hararis inside. My whole point of coming to this forum was to reintroduce the idea that Hararis weren’t just “Xabeshi settlers.” As is evident in Futuh, Somali clan leaders were pretty influential in Adal politics. Sultans needed Somalis to hold onto power, run away into their lands for protection. Somali clan leaders were given very honorable titles like Goyta (which is a really huge honor). My only question is where is the old Somali settlements mentioned in Futuh? I was thinking northern Galbed but there are many empty ruins there and the land of Zayla was still in the land of Saad ad-Din. That’s why it’s possible Galbed was Gedaya where you mentioned there was a Girri leader there. I feel like land of Somalis could have been the green lands of Sanaag but I’m wondering if that’s too far.