They dont know if their father, grandfather, great grandfather had those thoughts while menacingly staring at his beautiful first cousinThey unfortunately lack common sense.
Joe Rogan talks about inbreeding in the U.K
- Thread starter Khanderson
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Cousin marriages does happen in Somalia and whilst not seen as ideal amongst many clans, it isn’t frowned upon. Within every family you will get a one off aunt or uncle who has married either a first or second cousin. I’ve noticed after the war, it became more common back home due to distrust people have of other qabils, but the more further back I go, the less likely my ancestors are related since Somalis liked to form alliances with other sub-tribes and sometimes completely different tribes.
However, whilst one-off cousins marriages are indeed seen within the realm of normal, amongst traditional Somalis, multi-generational cousin marriages are near enough unheard of when it comes to ethnic Somalis. It is a foreign practice that goes against our philosophy of building alliances and allies.
Multi-generational cousin marriages are also frowned upon by Sahabis like Umar Ibn Khattab R.A who noticed a qabil that were weak and were known to intermarry for generations and we know that Imam Shafi said that multi-generational cousin marriages causes intellectual issues. These genetic problems were even well known in the ancient and medieval world.
How should we see cousin marriages? We should see it as something Islamically acceptable and normal when done once in a generation. What I completely disagree with is multi-generational intermarriages. Anyone that has lived in communities or countries with cousin marriages that are more than 40% of the population can tell you that they have a lot of people living with learning difficulties well above the averages of societies that don’t have a culture of cousin marriages.
However, whilst one-off cousins marriages are indeed seen within the realm of normal, amongst traditional Somalis, multi-generational cousin marriages are near enough unheard of when it comes to ethnic Somalis. It is a foreign practice that goes against our philosophy of building alliances and allies.
Multi-generational cousin marriages are also frowned upon by Sahabis like Umar Ibn Khattab R.A who noticed a qabil that were weak and were known to intermarry for generations and we know that Imam Shafi said that multi-generational cousin marriages causes intellectual issues. These genetic problems were even well known in the ancient and medieval world.
How should we see cousin marriages? We should see it as something Islamically acceptable and normal when done once in a generation. What I completely disagree with is multi-generational intermarriages. Anyone that has lived in communities or countries with cousin marriages that are more than 40% of the population can tell you that they have a lot of people living with learning difficulties well above the averages of societies that don’t have a culture of cousin marriages.
What he posted wasn’t a Hadith. It is the view of Umar R.A and the view of a Scholar Imam Shafi. I don’t understand why you’d think it would be in Al-Bukhari when it isn’t a narration from the Prophet s.a.w.
He has posted the book in which Imam Shafi wrote it in. As for the view of Umar, he needs to find the scholar that noted it down.
I know it isn't in Al-bukhari, its easy to post Hadith when it comes from Al-bukhari for common people like me and you and that's why I emphasised it, as opposed to what the commenter posted.
Also if these narrations aren't claimed to be hadith and come instead only from the mouths of Imam shafi and Umar R.A then I completely expect there to be sources and scholars backing up these narrations. Specifically scholars from the shafi school, there should be loads of them that can back these narrations and their legitimacy up.
I can't do that, I know that the commenter, nor you can and that's why I ask for scholars who can back these narrations.
You see I'm not knowledgable enough to know that imam shafi wrote these narrations, I need scholars backing it up. I find it hard to trust random narrations on the internet without scholars who can understand the context and legitimacy of the narrations.
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He is a pretty good source, he’s compiled a lot of classical texts and scholarly views. He’s a student of knowledge:
Umar on Inbreeding: Do not to marry within bloodlines, close cousins
www.abuaminaelias.com
Also, there is a search engine called Shamila or something like that. I haven’t used it for time and you can find all the classical books that poster references. Btw, he did reference scholars. He reference Imam Shafi who is indeed a scholar and Ibn Hajar. He even referenced the specific book which you can google.
Btw, this is from a Shafi website who concur that it was indeed from Umar Ibn Khattab and not from the Prophet s.a.w
Did the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) Discourage Marrying Cousins?
Answered by Shaykh Faraz A. Khan Question: Did the Prophet (peace be upon him) discourage marrying relatives (ie. cousins) even though it is lawful? Answer: Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah, I pray this finds you in the best of health and states. The short answer is that there are certain...
seekersguidance.org
In saying that, this isn’t the view of the Prophet s.a.w. No one can attribute this to him but the poster made it clear this is the view of Umar R.A, Imam Shafi and Ibn Hajar.
One of the sources here specifically mention the hanafi fiqh/school of thought and and the other is very vague in their answers posting only the narration and nothing more without expansion, context of the narration at the time etc.He is a pretty good source, he’s compiled a lot of classical texts and scholarly views. He’s a student of knowledge:
Umar on Inbreeding: Do not to marry within bloodlines, close cousins
Also, there is a search engine called Shamila or something like that. I haven’t used it for time and you can find all the classical books that poster references. Btw, he did reference scholars. He reference Imam Shafi who is indeed a scholar and Ibn Hajar. He even referenced the specific book which you can google.
Btw, this is from a Shafi website who concur that it was indeed from Umar Ibn Khattab and not from the Prophet s.a.w
Did the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) Discourage Marrying Cousins?
Answered by Shaykh Faraz A. Khan Question: Did the Prophet (peace be upon him) discourage marrying relatives (ie. cousins) even though it is lawful? Answer: Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah, I pray this finds you in the best of health and states. The short answer is that there are certain...
In saying that, this isn’t the view of the Prophet s.a.w. No one can attribute this to him but the poster made it clear this is the view of Umar R.A, Imam Shafi and Ibn Hajar.
Eh, it seems really hard to find anything on the internet in the way of scholars when it comes to things like this. Appreciate it non the less.
I don’t think you need context for a narration like this tbh. It’s pretty self explanatory. Umar simply thought that people that intermarried for generations become weak. What you needed was confirmation that this wasn’t actually made up. As for the Hanafi fiqh point you made, the other quotes are simply from different scholars some who are indeed of the Hanafi madhab. Btw, even in the Hanbali school of thought you have ibn Qudaamah who had a similar view as well, but you get other scholars like Ibn Baz who are argues that since there is no Hadith from the Prophet s.a.w about this, marrying your cousins for generations is fine.
At the end of the day a bit of common sense goes a long way. Marrying your cousin is halal, heck your kids and your descendants marrying them for 10 generations is clearly halal, but is it healthy? When you have people in the ancient world like Umar R.A and people like Ibn Hajar, like Ibn Qudaamah noticing the genetic issues that can arise from multi generations of cousins marriages in their time in the medieval period and now you have strong scientific evidence in the year of 2024, what really is there to discuss?
Maybe I'm too conservative but I just don't have the same confidence to make such statements as this without listening to trusted people in the modern day who can parse all of this information out in a way we can't, until then ill keep reserved and not make opinions on inter generational cousin marriage.
Its quite possible that Umar R.A made these comments but then ill wait to take the opinions of trusted scholars who've done decades of research and have deep understanding over making my own mind up, its important to remember that we don't even have access to the original sources here, they're in Arabic and are translated to English, were only using second hand sources at the least. I'm not saying using your common sense is wrong but, common sense doesn't allow you to know whether intergenerational cousin marriage leads to bad genes etc, I think there's some scientific studies done on it, I'm not sure how conclusive even that is though.
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Why do you need a modern person’s explaination when the scholarly views are there in black and white? Also, Seekers guide was indeed a modern explanation told to you by a modern scholar who analyzed the classical text for you.
Also, it’s a case of take it or leave it? Not marrying your cousins for generations is a personal one that has no bearing on your Akhira. Some scholars say that it’s better not to and some say it’s better to do it like Ibn Baz.
But using your common sense and now knowing the genetic components to it, do you think it’s wise walal? Even now in Saudi and most Khaleeji countries even they can’t escape it and now require mandatory testing before marriages to find any genetic family inherited issues before people tie the knot due to how high cousin marriages are and because they have high rates of Thalassemia. You’d have to willfully blind yourself to the realities of this.
The scholars have different opinions. The scholars who said it’s better not to are also going by their own opinion of what they saw in their days. This isn’t based on Quran and Sunnah since the Prophet s.a.w never said it was haram to. We all know cousin marriages are halal, Umar R.A and the scholars never said it was haram to even marry cousins for generations, they simply noticed doing so makes their offsprings weak and think it’s better to not be exessive. Example, if you marry your cousin, next gen try to get your daughters and sons to marry out of the family.
To end, this isn’t an issue that will impact your Islam or put you in a haram position since we can’t ever say cousin marries are haram point blank since the Prophet s.a.w did and as did Fatima R.A, but this view is simply that doing it excessively can cause issues. There is nothing controversial about that this is a scientific fact.
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Your opinion is fair and I respect it, you're not making wild statements in the way that some people are here, some going as far to to make kufr statements, like the original poster who admitted he was a kafir
They’re young, easily triggered and they’re led by emotion which I’ll explain in a bit. Cousin marriages that happen one off in a generation ect doesn’t pose an issue provided that the family don’t have inheritable genetic issues. I have family in the medical field and they’ve treated communities with high rates of cousin marriages and to make it worse many parents so mum and dad, both had a family history of genetic conditions since they hailed from the same family and such unions at times more than doubled the odds, so you’d find higher rates of illnesses and disabilities. To explain, husband and wife were born carriers of certain illness which meant at least one or more of their children will inherit it.
I think people’s worry is that they don’t want to get to a point in which this becomes a community or national issue. You don’t want to be in an situation as a group in which families with health issues are intermarrying and doubling if not tripling the odds of passing it down all sorts of disorders, although in saying that everything is in the hands of Allah but we’ve been told to tie our camels.
I personally think the traditional Somali way is the best. Cousin marriages whilst not seen as the most ideal was still seen as normal and it happened, but they also prized getting fresh blood and forging new alliances. I think that’s the best for a healthy society.
One idea I've heard about why there might be more rape in South Asian societies is that women, often cousins, are given to men in arranged marriages. This means men don't compete for wives, creating a society where women are treated like property from birth. This view makes men see women as less than human, leading to more sexual assualt. For example, a Pakistani man doesn't need to work hard to find a wife; she is given to him easily, like a piece of bread. This makes rape seem more normal because women aren't seen as equals, but as property given for a price.
In China, men usually need to own a house before they can get married, and the shortage of women means men compete fiercely. This competition, though it has its own issues, but generally pushes society to improve.
Inbreeding can cause problems over time, even if many children seem normal. South Asia, despite its rich agriculture, has some of the worst muscle genetics. Meanwhile, Somalis, who often faced famines, grow much taller when they get enough calories, which is why the west is filled with so many tall Somalia.
Italians wrote about constant low-level conflicts in Somali society, which ended with mediation and inter-tribal marriages before starting again.
Relying on cousin marriages today is a sign of a sickly society.
In China, men usually need to own a house before they can get married, and the shortage of women means men compete fiercely. This competition, though it has its own issues, but generally pushes society to improve.
Inbreeding can cause problems over time, even if many children seem normal. South Asia, despite its rich agriculture, has some of the worst muscle genetics. Meanwhile, Somalis, who often faced famines, grow much taller when they get enough calories, which is why the west is filled with so many tall Somalia.
Italians wrote about constant low-level conflicts in Somali society, which ended with mediation and inter-tribal marriages before starting again.
Relying on cousin marriages today is a sign of a sickly society.
Because if gen z mess up, like the previous generation, the generation we birth gonna be bunch of fools. I am an eugenic, okay? Somalis are going the drain by not adapting to hardship and genetically messing up the next generation by either marrying out of the ethnicity or marrying a close relatives.
I have made it clear many times and I made a whole post about it. I want us to preserve the Somali people. This means we dont marry our cousins, but find the most suitable from a different reer.
it is very rare to begin and gen z will stray away from it further. im just pointing out the in-accuracies you were saying. Most level headed people in this thread already pointed it out well. The second brainwashed people hear cousins they go full on bananas and throw the logic they so keenly follow straight out of the window. Do you know why? its foregin to them because of their upbrining where do you live
Northern Europe. Marrying your second cousin is alright since you share 3.13% genes and thats if she is pretty, lakiinse your first cousin? It is crazy. You sharing 12.5% on average dna.
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