Maay vs Maxaa?

[Pastoralite]

That's a Digil and Mirifle website, which you would have realized if you had actually looked at it, and it clearly does not agree with you.. Lumping everybody together is one of the things the Maay speakers complain about. They make it quite clear they are a different group:

http://www.arlaadinet.com/digil-mirifle-history.html

You should be much more concerned about your usual lack of links at all and your usage of the fake Somali pages on Wikipedia:

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/yusuf-and-ahmad.48176/#post-1320180

You don't know what a Samaale supremacist is? Look in a mirror.

I know plenty of digil & mirifle’s and even have some relatives from that clan and they all consider themselves ethnic Somalis tf are you talking about seems like you’re tryna divide us

 

[Grant]

I have debunked you a thousand times and you've been exposed as a liar and being a revisionist. I know many Rahanweyn people and they all consider themselves Somali. What you're saying is absolutely unheard off and completely bullshit.

Everyone knows I have shown you authentic sources but all you do is deny and show off blogs that have been made by you or Wikipeida pages that have been edited by you. You're pathetic.

Just remember Rahanweyn believe their lineage is sab. Both Samaale and Sab are the sons of Hiil. (Father of all Somalis). They are also more nationalistic and less tribalisitc than other Somalis.

@Apollo @Ferrari You ever heard Rahanweyn denying their ethnicity? Why does this lunatic make shit up?

"Factz",

I gave you the odd last post just to stop your nonsense. You never won an argument based on content and never debunked anything.

You began your excursion into the false with the edited notions on this page:

https://everipedia.org/wiki/lang_en/Sultanate_of_the_Geledi/

These claims were all amply debunked by Scott Reese, an actual historian and not a patriotic Somali revisionist with editing fingers:

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/yusuf-and-ahmad.48176/

The bad quotes::

"The dynastyreached its apex under the successive reigns of Sultan Yusuf Mahamud Ibrahim , who successfully consolidated Geledi power during the Bardera wars in 1843, [2] and Sultan Ahmed Yusuf , who forced regional powers such as the Omani Empire to submit tribute ."

(Yusuf was killed by the Biimaal when he attempted to consolidate power Ahmad was killed 30 years later when he tried the same. He never got a port, and he never got to Lamu. Ahmad actually helped the Omanis build the Garessa in Mog, consolidating Omani power, by threatening the Abgaal Imam and the Shingaanni council of elders with cutting off the grain and other trade goods passing through Geledi territory by sending it to Warsheikh or Marka if they did not permit the building of the fort.)

"The Geledi army numbered 20,000 men in times of peace, and could be raised to 50,000 troops in times of war. The supreme commanders of the army were the Sultan and his brother, who in turn hadMalaakhs and Garads under them. The military was supplied with rifles and cannons by Somali traders of the coastal regions that controlled the East African arms trade ."

(The entire coast except the Biimaal, and almost all of the area between the Shabelli and Jubba
participated in defeating the Bardheere Jamaaca that burned Baraawe. These same folks joined the Biimaal in defeating Yusuf when he attempted to seize the port at Munghia and consolidate power.)

4 Ahmed Yusuf 1848–1878 Exacted tribute from the Omanis south of Lamu . Regularly extended support to East African sultanates fighting the Zanzibaris .

(BS. This is clearly false from all of the above. The Geledis never got a port and had no ships. )

And if this quote is true:

'Ibrahim and the other Gobroon nobles were descended from Omar Dine, an early Muslimleader who had arrived with four of his brothers from the Arabian peninsula. Among this group of siblings, all of whom were Islamic clerics, was Fakr ad-Din, the first Sultan of the Mogadishu Sultanate (fl. 13th century). "

then your claim that Fakr ad-Din was Somali, is also false. Furthermore, Reese (page 36) has the actual quote from Yakut al Hamawi:

Mu'jam al Buldan (Beirut:Dar al-Sadr, 1957) v. 5, p 173: Yakut says Muqdisho's inhabitants in 1228 were distinguished from the "Berber" nomads of the interior by their adherence to Islam and physical features that placed them "between Ethiopians and the Zanj." The "Berbers" were not to be confused with the Berbers of the Maghrib and they were not yet Muslims..

So..... You have lousy sources for claiming the history of Reer Faqi, Reer Hamar and the Banaadiris for yourself. The genuine historians with real facts will always prove you wrong.

Your anti-Somali slander of me is also false. You try to say I am anti-Somali because I disagree with you. No. I disagree with you because you are wrong. Disagreeing with one young Somali who has not yet read far enough and makes poor source choices does not make me anti-Somali.

Read what the Digil and Mirifle say of their own history and the discrimination they feel they experience on a daily basis. Stop listening to the Maxaa speakers who have their own ax to grind.. I am not making anything up.

 

[Apollo]

Maxaa Somalis originated in South Somalia and only moved to North Somalia after the introduction of the camel (between 500 BCE and 500 CE). Lots of linguistic evidence for this (linguistic TMRCA between Maay and Maxaa).

North Somalis = Ancient South Somalis.

The Maay and Maxaa belong to the same ethnic group: Somali.

 

[Grant]

I know plenty of digil & mirifle’s and even have some relatives from that clan and they all consider themselves ethnic Somalis tf are you talking about seems like you’re tryna divide us

Two prime Somali pastimes are qabyalad and FKD. The Civil War and past raiding histories of the clans put the Somali divisions on display. Attacks by Ajnabis have actually served to pull some clans together, as in the Adal and Gaal Madow wars, the Dervishes and some colonial resistance in the South.

The Somalis are already divided well beyond any powers I may have to divide. A true history of Somalia that clarifies some of the claims may actually help a Somali union.

 

[Apollo]

Two prime Somali pastimes are qabyalad and FKD. The Civil War and past raiding histories of the clans put the Somali divisions on display. Attacks by Ajnabis have actually served to pull some clans together, as in the Adal and Gaal Madow wars, the Dervishes and some colonial resistance in the South.

The Somalis are already divided well beyond any powers I may have to divide. A true history of Somalia that clarifies some of the claims may actually help a Somali union.

Somaloids (non-Maxaa in the proto-Somali language group) & the Maxaa are related.

 

[Grant]

Maxaa Somalis originated in South Somalia and only moved to North Somalia after the introduction of the camel (between 500 BCE and 500 CE). Lots of linguistic evidence for this (linguistic TMRCA between Maay and Maxaa).

North Somalis = Ancient South Somalis.

The Maay and Maxaa belong to the same ethnic group: Somali.

This old white man is a clown.

How much T1a1 and J1 do you find among the Maay speakers?

 

[Apollo]

How much T1a1 and J1 do you find among the Maay speakers?

Some subclades of T1a are Cushitic by now and even exist in North Tanzania among the Iraqw who have never been touched by Arabs. Even the Rendille carry some T1a. It is found in South Ethiopia among others. It is not modern-era Arab.

Also, I see what you are doing here, trying to look for another dividing factor. Newsflash: T1a-Somalis are whole genome-wise/autosomally identical to E1b1b1-Somalis and are ethnically fully Somali. They have been in the Horn for a few thousand years. No ethnic group on the planet has just one paternal haplogroup.

 

[Grant]

Some subclades of T1a are Cushitic by now and even exist in North Tanzania among the Iraqw who have never been touched by Arabs. Even the Rendille carry some T1a.

Also, I see what you are doing here, trying to look for another dividing factor. Newsflash: T1a-Somalis are autosomally identical to E1b1b1-Somalis and are ethnically fully Somali. No ethnic group on the planet has just one paternal haplogroup.

You're gaslighting. My question pertains to Maay speakers, J1 as well as T1a.

 

[Factz]

"Factz",

I gave you the odd last post just to stop your nonsense. You never won an argument based on content and never debunked anything.

You began your excursion into the false with the edited notions on this page:

https://everipedia.org/wiki/lang_en/Sultanate_of_the_Geledi/

These claims were all amply debunked by Scott Reese, an actual historian and not a patriotic Somali revisionist with editing fingers:

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/yusuf-and-ahmad.48176/

The bad quotes::

"The dynastyreached its apex under the successive reigns of Sultan Yusuf Mahamud Ibrahim , who successfully consolidated Geledi power during the Bardera wars in 1843, [2] and Sultan Ahmed Yusuf , who forced regional powers such as the Omani Empire to submit tribute ."

(Yusuf was killed by the Biimaal when he attempted to consolidate power Ahmad was killed 30 years later when he tried the same. He never got a port, and he never got to Lamu. Ahmad actually helped the Omanis build the Garessa in Mog, consolidating Omani power, by threatening the Abgaal Imam and the Shingaanni council of elders with cutting off the grain and other trade goods passing through Geledi territory by sending it to Warsheikh or Marka if they did not permit the building of the fort.)

"The Geledi army numbered 20,000 men in times of peace, and could be raised to 50,000 troops in times of war. The supreme commanders of the army were the Sultan and his brother, who in turn hadMalaakhs and Garads under them. The military was supplied with rifles and cannons by Somali traders of the coastal regions that controlled the East African arms trade ."

(The entire coast except the Biimaal, and almost all of the area between the Shabelli and Jubba
participated in defeating the Bardheere Jamaaca that burned Baraawe. These same folks joined the Biimaal in defeating Yusuf when he attempted to seize the port at Munghia and consolidate power.)

4 Ahmed Yusuf 1848–1878 Exacted tribute from the Omanis south of Lamu . Regularly extended support to East African sultanates fighting the Zanzibaris .

(BS. This is clearly false from all of the above. The Geledis never got a port and had no ships. )

And if this quote is true:

'Ibrahim and the other Gobroon nobles were descended from Omar Dine, an early Muslimleader who had arrived with four of his brothers from the Arabian peninsula. Among this group of siblings, all of whom were Islamic clerics, was Fakr ad-Din, the first Sultan of the Mogadishu Sultanate (fl. 13th century). "

then your claim that Fakr ad-Din was Somali, is also false. Furthermore, Reese (page 36) has the actual quote from Yakut al Hamawi:

Mu'jam al Buldan (Beirut:Dar al-Sadr, 1957) v. 5, p 173: Yakut says Muqdisho's inhabitants in 1228 were distinguished from the "Berber" nomads of the interior by their adherence to Islam and physical features that placed them "between Ethiopians and the Zanj." The "Berbers" were not to be confused with the Berbers of the Maghrib and they were not yet Muslims..

So..... You have lousy sources for claiming the history of Reer Faqi, Reer Hamar and the Banaadiris for yourself. The genuine historians with real facts will always prove you wrong.

Your anti-Somali slander of me is also false. You try to say I am anti-Somali because I disagree with you. No. I disagree with you because you are wrong. Disagreeing with one young Somali who has not yet read far enough and makes poor source choices does not make me anti-Somali.

Read what the Digil and Mirifle say of their own history and the discrimination they feel they experience on a daily basis. Stop listening to the Maxaa speakers who have their own ax to grind.. I am not making anything up.

Why are you changing the subject again? Once you lose the argument you switch topics.

Every time I bring a source to refute your absurb claims. You say false source or false links so how am I meant to take you seriously? You're quoting Wikipedia again. Let me bring you real books written by top historians themselves.

Geledi Sultanate controlled from Mogadishu as far south as Barawa which means Lower Jubba coast.

Geledi sultanate map during 1915. The map is referenced by the colonials as you can see.

According to Ibn Battuta who was a medieval scholar and traveller who visited Mogadishu and the Benadir coast confirmed they were neither Arab or Persian enclaves but largely African towns that were dominated and ruled by the native dark skin Africans that spoke their own native African tongue. His travels alone debunk your lies.

A 12th century historian called Yaqut al-Hamawi stated that Mogadishu was inhabited by Swarthly Berbers who are ancestors of Somali people today. Last time I checked Shirazi people are not dark skin nor were they ever referred as Bilad Al-Berber or Barbara, that was an ancient and medieval term to describe the Somalis back then.

The sources clearly states Somali merchants from Mogadishu established a colony in Sofala. No misinterpretation here.

Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FlL2vE_qRQ8C&pg=PA36&dq=somali+merchants+established+a+colony+in+sofala&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8g-jOjcjcAhXqLcAKHXXsB-wQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=somali merchants established a colony in sofala&f=false

Benadiri people are not dark skin either and are descendants of merchants or refugees. These are the authentic sources. Arabs did not found or rule shit, they got permission from the Somalis to settle in Mogadishu. They paid tribute to the local Somali rulers to stay and Somalis retained their political and numerical dominance in Mogadishu. This source debunks the false traditions made by west Asians that you keep pipping on.

Read the top bit. "It's widely accepted" by genuine historians that Somalis have always dominated the Benadir coast and West Asians were recent who didn't found or rule shit.

You have been debunked yet again!

 

[Grant]

Why are you changing the subject again? Once you lose the argument you switch topics.

Every time I bring a source to refute your absurb claims. You say false source or false links so how am I meant to take you seriously? You're quoting Wikipedia again. Let me bring you real books written by top historians themselves.

Geledi Sultanate controlled from Mogadishu as far as Barawa which means Lower Jubba coast.

Geledi sultanate map during 1915. The map is referenced by the colonials as you can see.

According to Ibn Battuta who was a medieval scholar and traveller who visited Mogadishu and the Benadir coast confirmed they were neither Arab or Persian enclaves but largely African towns that were dominated and ruled by the native dark skin Africans that spoke their own native African tongue. His travels alone debunk your lies.

A 12th century historian called Yaqut al-Hamawi stated that Mogadishu was inhabited by Swarthly Berbers who are ancestors of Somali people today. Last time I checked Shirazi people are not dark skin nor were they ever referred as Bilad Al-Berber or Barbara, that was an ancient and medieval term to describe the Somalis back then.

The sources clearly states Somali merchants from Mogadishu established a colony in Sofala. No misinterpretation here.

Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FlL2vE_qRQ8C&pg=PA36&dq=somali+merchants+established+a+colony+in+sofala&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8g-jOjcjcAhXqLcAKHXXsB-wQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=somali merchants established a colony in sofala&f=false

Benadiri people are not dark skin either and are descendants of merchants or refugees. These are the authentic sources. Arabs did not found or rule shit, they got permission from the Somalis to settle in Mogadishu. They paid tribute to the local Somali rulers to stay and Somalis retained their political and numerical dominance in Mogadishu. This source debunks the false traditions made by west Asians that you keep pipping on.

Read the top bit. "It's widely accepted" by genuine historians that Somalis have always dominated the Benadir coast and West Asians were recent who didn't found or rule shit.

You have been debunked yet again!

You have only one link, and that from a questionable author. You seem to like overextended and peripheral authors (like Baadiyow, who makes such silly mistakes) and this dude, Njoku. He is Professor of Economics and African /world history at Idaho State University. His History of Somalia is strictly derivative and has nothing to recommend it over actual specialists, who disagree with hjm as I have shown again and again.. I don't take him seriously as he is hugely overextended and doesn't have the background..

RAPHAEL CHIJIOKE NJOKU’S BOOKS
Average rating: 3.57 · 14 ratings · 4 reviews · 7 distinct works

Culture and Customs of Morocco
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Raphael Chijioke Njoku

3.67 avg rating — 6 ratings — published 2000 — 4 editions

The History of Somalia
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3.43 avg rating — 7 ratings — published 2013 — 4 editions

African Cultural Values: Igbo Political Leadership in Colonial Nigeria, 1900-1996
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Raphael Chijioke Njoku

really liked it 4.00 avg rating — 1 rating — published 2006 — 3 editions

War and Peace in Africa
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Toyin Falola (Contributor),

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0.00 avg rating — 0 ratings — published 2009 — 2 editions

Missions, States, and European Expansion in Africa
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0.00 avg rating — 0 ratings — published 2007 — 9 editions

African History
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Chima J. Korieh (Editor),

Raphael Chijioke Njoku (Editor)

0.00 avg rating — 0 ratings — published 2012
Rate this book


Igbo in the Atlantic World: African Origins and Diasporic Destinations
by
Toyin Falola (Editor),

Raphael Chijioke Njoku (Editor)

0.00 avg rating — 0 ratings — 3 editions

 

[Apollo]

You have only one link, and that from a questionable author. You seem to like overextended and peripheral authors (like Baadiyow, who makes such silly mistakes) and this dude, Njoku. He is Professor of Economics and African /world history at Idaho State University. His History of Somalia is strictly derivative and has nothing to recommend it over actual specialists, who disagree with hjm as I have shown again and again.. I don't take him seriously as he is hugely overextended and doesn't have the background..

Much of Somali history is based on oral hearsay, written decades or centuries after the fact. Often with little to no corroborating pieces of evidence.

Another important limiting factor in Somali history: biases of the writer(s). They will promote their own oral history or that of their own region and neglect or underplay those of others.

 

[Factz]

You have only one link, and that from a questionable author. You seem to like overextended and peripheral authors (like Baadiyow, who makes such silly mistakes) and this dude, Njoku. He is Professor of Economics and African /world history at Idaho State University. His History of Somalia is strictly derivative and has nothing to recommend it over actual specialists, who disagree with hjm as I have shown again and again.. I don't take him seriously as he is hugely overextended and doesn't have the background..

View attachment 66356
View attachment 66357
RAPHAEL CHIJIOKE NJOKU’S BOOKS
Average rating: 3.57 · 14 ratings · 4 reviews · 7 distinct works

Culture and Customs of Morocco
by
Raphael Chijioke Njoku

3.67 avg rating — 6 ratings — published 2000 — 4 editions

The History of Somalia
by
Raphael Chijioke Njoku

3.43 avg rating — 7 ratings — published 2013 — 4 editions

African Cultural Values: Igbo Political Leadership in Colonial Nigeria, 1900-1996
by
Raphael Chijioke Njoku

really liked it 4.00 avg rating — 1 rating — published 2006 — 3 editions

War and Peace in Africa
by
Toyin Falola (Contributor),

Raphael Chijioke Njoku (Editor)

0.00 avg rating — 0 ratings — published 2009 — 2 editions

Missions, States, and European Expansion in Africa
by
Chima J. Korieh,

Raphael Chijioke Njoku

0.00 avg rating — 0 ratings — published 2007 — 9 editions

African History
by
Chima J. Korieh (Editor),

Raphael Chijioke Njoku (Editor)

0.00 avg rating — 0 ratings — published 2012
Rate this book


Igbo in the Atlantic World: African Origins and Diasporic Destinations
by
Toyin Falola (Editor),

Raphael Chijioke Njoku (Editor)

0.00 avg rating — 0 ratings — 3 editions

Excuses after excuses. You've been exposed as a historical revisionist liar with a clear agenda. I've showed you multiple sources and provided evidence to back up all my claims. They are facts and you have to eat it up old man.

Raphael Chijioke Njoku is not only a chair and director of the International Studies Program/Department of Economics. He also have PHD in history and is the professor of African/world history at Idaho State University.

I don't care if you disagree with him. Most historians approve him. Cry somewhere else with your nonsensical revisionism.

The other sources I have shown you were written by top Historians with African PHD history.

The first source I showed is called Africa in the Nineteenth Century Until the 1880s and the author name is J. F. Ade Ajayi. Paris: UNESCO; Berkeley; University of California

He showed the Italian colonial maps of Geledi Sultanate and confirmed how much coast they controlled.

The second source is called The Adventures of Ibn Battuta: A Muslim Traveler of the Fourteenth Century and was studied and written by Ross E. Dunn. He is the history Professor at San Diego State University.

He confirmed Ibn Battuta quotes about Mogadishu and Benadir coast being domianted and ruled by Somalis and was neither Arab or Persian enclaves that you keep holding on.

The last source is called Cities of the Middle East and North Africa: A Historical Encyclopedia and written by two historians called ichael Dumper and Bruce E. Stanley

These two guys not only debunked the Benadir tradition but stated it's widely accepted that Mogadishu and the Benadir coast was always dominated and ruled by Somalis while the west Asian communities came as merchants or as refugees and were accepted by the pre-existing native African communities on the coast.

Debunked! Show me any historians that disagree with them? I dare you. You're a known liar for a reason.

 

[NFD]

Ibn Battuta is now not a credible source? Cadaan ma xishoodan and this why they shouldnt be welcomed. This dude is hellbent on proving that Somalis were foreign to xamar and non-natives to Africa were in control (how European) and now saying the rahanweyne are not Somali wth?

Af Somali is maay and maha tiri and this is accepted by Somalis and always has been. We don't need foreigners trying to define something we know already. Why are you all even arguing with dude?

 

[NFD]

Famous Maay song.

 

[Grant]

Excuses after excuses. You've been exposed as a historical revisionist liar with a clear agenda. I've showed you multiple sources and provided evidence to back up all my claims. They are facts and you have to eat it up old man.

Raphael Chijioke Njoku is not only a chair and director of the International Studies Program/Department of Economics. He also have PHD in history and is the professor of African/world history at Idaho State University.

I don't care if you disagree with him. Most historians approve him. Cry somewhere else with your nonsensical revisionism.

The other sources I have shown you were written by top Historians with African PHD history.

The first source I showed is called Africa in the Nineteenth Century Until the 1880s and the author name is J. F. Ade Ajayi. Paris: UNESCO; Berkeley; University of California

He showed the Italian colonial maps of Geledi Sultanate and confirmed how much coast they controlled.

The second source is called The Adventures of Ibn Battuta: A Muslim Traveler of the Fourteenth Century and was studied and written by Ross E. Dunn. He is the history Professor at San Diego State University.

He confirmed Ibn Battuta quotes about Mogadishu and Benadir coast being domianted and ruled by Somalis and was neither Arab or Persian enclaves that you keep holding on.

The last source is called Cities of the Middle East and North Africa: A Historical Encyclopedia and written by two historians called ichael Dumper and Bruce E. Stanley

These two guys not only debunked the Benadir tradition but stated it's widely accepted that Mogadishu and the Benadir coast was always dominated and ruled by Somalis while the west Asian communities came as merchants or as refugees and were accepted by the pre-existing native African communities on the coast.

Debunked! Show me any historians that disagree with them? I dare you. You're a known liar for a reason.

It would make much better sense if you used these authors as footnotes to your writing. It would make much better sense if you used specialists like Reese, Cassanelli, Luling, Besteman or Ehret, or Somalis like Ali Jimale Ahmed, Mohamed M. Kassim,, Abdi M. Kusow, or Mohamed Haji Mukhtar. Your generalist sources read like they got crossed with Wikipedia.

I gave you the actual source for Yakut al-Hamawi , who said the inhabitants of Muqdisho in 1228 were different from the "Berbers" of the interior, .and I only dispute your interpretation of Ibn Batuta, who was clearly describing a non-Somali, Arabic, court. Cassanelli, Reese, and Mohammed Haji Mukhtar disagree with you.

This is Mohammed Haji Mukhtar:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=DP...hu marwan umayyad&pg=PR26#v=onepage&q&f=false

From 1001 to about 1250 Muqdisho is a republic, governed by a council of Arab and Persian clans., Thereafter until about 1625 Arab and Persian dynasties rule Mog, the last being the Muzzaffar, from Yemen.
It is the Banadir ports, and not the Ajuraan who support the Omanis against the Portuguese.

The Geledi were forced back across the Shabelli by the Biimaal wars and never controlled any part of the coast.

 

[Grant]

You're gaslighting. My question pertains to Maay speakers, J1 as well as T1a.

I am still waiting for an answer to this.

 

[Apollo]

I am still waiting for an answer to this.

T1a exists across Northeast Africa, pre-Arab/pre-Islamic contact. That answer should suffice.

 

[Grant]

T1a exists across Northeast Africa, pre-Arab/pre-Islamic contact. That answer should suffice.

For obvious reasons, it doesn't.

 

[Apollo]

For obvious reasons, it doesn't.

Hurr durr, the Iraqw from interior Tanzania got their T1a from Arabs? You are silly.

Even some Bantu tribes living near the Iraqw got 10% T1a from absorbing proto-Iraqwes. It is part of the Cushitic lineage package.

 

[Grant]

Hurr durr, the Iraqw from interior Tanzania got their T1a from Arabs? You are silly.

Even some Bantu tribes living near the Iraqw got 10% T1a. It is part of the Cushitic lineage package.

I agree the T1a in the Iraqw could have come from the Sudan. But that does not explain the near 100% T1a showing in the Dir. And you have not touched on J1. Only info specific to the Maay speakers is going to settle this.