Maay vs Maxaa?

[Apollo]

I agree the T1a in the Iraqw could have come from the Sudan. But that does not explain the near 100% T1a showing in the Dir. And you have not touched on J1. Only info specific to the Maay speakers is going to settle this.

South Cushites came from Southeast Ethiopia/Southwest Somalia, not Sudan.*

South Cushitic languages are closest to Lowland East Cushitic languages of which ethnic Somalis are the prime ancestral population (Western LEA Cushites are admixed with Omotics - ethnic Somalis are not, especially not those from Somalia proper).

I don't care whether T1a exists in the Maay, because it is irrelevant as it doesn't change anything. Even if they had 95% T1a like the Dir, it would still make them Somali. You don't even understand how paternal bottlenecks work and here you are pretending to understand genetics.

*Depending on the timeframe.

 

[Factz]

It would make much better sense if you used these authors as footnotes to your writing. It would make much better sense if you used specialists like Reese, Cassanelli, Luling, Besteman or Ehret, or Somalis like Ali Jimale Ahmed, Mohamed M. Kassim,, Abdi M. Kusow, or Mohamed Haji Mukhtar. Your generalist sources read like they got crossed with Wikipedia.

I gave you the actual source for Yakut al-Hamawi , who said the inhabitants of Muqdisho in 1228 were different from the "Berbers" of the interior, .and I only dispute your interpretation of Ibn Batuta, who was clearly describing a non-Somali, Arabic, court. Cassanelli, Reese, and Mohammed Haji Mukhtar disagree with you.

This is Mohammed Haji Mukhtar:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=DPwOsOcNy5YC&lpg=PR25&dq=700 mogadishu marwan umayyad&pg=PR26#v=onepage&q&f=false


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From 1001 to about 1250 Muqdisho is a republic, governed by a council of Arab and Persian clans., Thereafter until about 1625 Arab and Persian dynasties rule Mog, the last being the Muzzaffar, from Yemen.
It is the Banadir ports, and not the Ajuraan who support the Omanis against the Portuguese.

The Geledi were forced back across the Shabelli by the Biimaal wars and never controlled any part of the coast.

Lmao, you should see Mohamed Haji Mukhtar background. He's not a proper historian and has been refuted by Abdullahi Abdurahman who is the best Somali historian.

Check his background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Haji_Mukhtar

What specialist? I've listed the top historians who have PHD in African history. If you disagree with them then that's not my problem. You can die in your rage for all I care because the genuine historians agree with them.

Ibn Batuta confirmed Mogadishu and the Benadir coast not being Arab or Persian enclaves. He confirmed they were a minority and did not rule shit. What part of English do you not understand? Even Ibn Sa'id the 13th century scholar confirmed it being predominantly inhabited and ruled by Somalis.

When Ibn Battuta visited Mogadishu in the 13th century. He confirmed the ruler being Somali.

We've already been through this. The Benadir coast was part of the Ajuran Sultanate. Look at this map you buffoon.

Both sources above are from this book: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X1dDDwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Sense+of+Somali+History:+Volume+1&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrur6WhNXgAhVaUBUIHd6IBNwQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Sense of Somali History: Volume 1&f=false

I will bring a source. The Ajuran Sultanate sent fleets to support their Ottomans ally to liberate the Swahili coast that were colonized by the Portuguese. While you're making stuff up, I bring a clear source saying they received help from "Somali Ajuran Sultanate".

Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PebBBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA335&dq=mozambique+with+the+help+of+Somali+Ajuran+Sultanate&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj04Y3phdXgAhWXThUIHfzVBdcQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=mozambique with the help of Somali Ajuran Sultanate&f=false

Do you realize during the Ajuran period that Mogadishu was dominated by Moorshe, an Ajuran sub-clan?

Yes, I will say it again. The Mudaffar dynasty was an Ajuran stock that ruled the Mogadishu province of Ajuran Sultanate.

Lastly, Bimaal only controlled Merca and just because the Geledi's failed to colonize it doesn't mean they didn't control other coastal territories. You're again making shit up as usual. Doesn't matter, you've been debunked yet again old man.

 

[Grant]

South Cushites came from Southeast Ethiopia/Southwest Somalia, not Sudan.*

South Cushitic languages are closest to Lowland East Cushitic languages of which ethnic Somalis are the prime ancestral population (Western LEA Cushites are admixed with Omotics - ethnic Somalis are not, especially not those from Somalia proper).

I don't care whether T1a exists in the Maay, because it is irrelevant as it doesn't change anything. Even if they had 95% T1a like the Dir, it would still make them Somali. You don't even understand how paternal bottlenecks work and here you are pretending to understand genetics.

*Depending on the timeframe.

That is not an answer. You claim the northern Somali clans formed in the South and that Maay and Maxaa speakers are the same. If so, the genetics should be similar. You have not covered J1 or linked anything specifically to the Maay speakers.

Furthermore, the D and M say that Sab-Samaale is a Maxaa thing. They descend from the two sons of Mad Reewin.

So, where did the southeast Ethiopian Cushites come from. I have been under the impression you were saying the northeastern Sudan.

 

[Grant]

Lmao, you should see Mohamed Haji Mukhtar background. He's not a proper historian and has been refuted by Abdullahi Abdurahman who is the best Somali historian.

Check his background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Haji_Mukhtar

What specialist? I've listed the top historians who have PHD in African history. If you disagree with them then that's not my problem. You can die in your rage for all I care because the genuine historians agree with them.

Ibn Batuta confirmed Mogadishu and the Benadir coast not being Arab or Persian enclaves. He confirmed they were a minority and did not rule shit. What part of English do you not understand? Even Ibn Sa'id the 13th century scholar confirmed it being predominantly inhabited and ruled by Somalis.

When Ibn Battuta visited Mogadishu in the 13th century. He confirmed the ruler being Somali.

We've already been through this. The Benadir coast was part of the Ajuran Sultanate. Look at this map you buffoon.

Both sources above are from this book: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X1dDDwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Sense+of+Somali+History:+Volume+1&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrur6WhNXgAhVaUBUIHd6IBNwQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Sense of Somali History: Volume 1&f=false

I will bring a source. The Ajuran Sultanate sent fleets to support their Ottomans ally to liberate the Swahili coast that were colonized by the Portuguese. While you're making stuff up, I bring a clear source saying they received help from "Somali Ajuran Sultanate".

Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PebBBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA335&dq=mozambique+with+the+help+of+Somali+Ajuran+Sultanate&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj04Y3phdXgAhWXThUIHfzVBdcQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=mozambique with the help of Somali Ajuran Sultanate&f=false

Do you realize during the Ajuran period that Mogadishu was dominated by Moorshe, an Ajuran sub-clan?

Yes, I will say it again. The Mudaffar dynasty was an Ajuran stock that ruled the Mogadishu province of Ajuran Sultanate.

Lastly, Bimaal only controlled Merca and just because the Geledi's failed to colonize it doesn't mean they didn't control other coastal territories. You're again making shit up as usual. Doesn't matter, you've been debunked yet again old man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Haji_Mukhtar

"Dr. Mukhtar holds a Ph.D. from Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt.

From 1975-1983, he was a professor of History at the Somali National University in Mogadishu. From 1986-1990, he taught at the National University of Malaysia in Malaysia.

Dr. Mukhtar is a two-time Fulbright-Hays Scholar, first in 1983-1984 at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, and then between 1984-1985 at the University of South Carolinain Columbia, South Carolina. He also held fellowships from the Istituto Italiano per l'Africa and the Arab League's Education, Culture and Science Organization (ALECSO), in 1980 and 1981–1982, respectively, as well as from the National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH) in 2002.

Career[edit]
Dr. Mukhtar has long been a producer and correspondent of the BBC African Service, and is presently the Chairperson of the Somalia Committee for Peace and Reconciliation (Ergada) as well as the Inter-Riverine Studies Association (ISA).

He is currently a professor of African & Middle Eastern history at Savannah State University in Savannah, Georgia."

Your problem with Dr Mukhtar is that he is Digil and Mirifle and often represents the Maay speakers.

-----------------------------------------------------

Your sources are BS. Abdullahi Abdurahman (Baadiyow) thought the Periiplus was authored by the Red Sea. He also claimed Mir Ali Bey was representing the Ottoman Empire when in fact Bey was an independent pirate, financed in part by the merchants of Muqdisho and Baraawe.. https://www.somalispot.com/threads/where-are-the-somali-historians.56782/page-2#post-1548497

Your second link is an inadequately researched (Probably Wikipedia.) travelogue by a Dude on a spiritual journey. It's not even historical.

You are really stretching. I will personally take Dr Mukhtar any day of the week.

 

[Factz]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Haji_Mukhtar

"Dr. Mukhtar holds a Ph.D. from Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt.

From 1975-1983, he was a professor of History at the Somali National University in Mogadishu. From 1986-1990, he taught at the National University of Malaysia in Malaysia.

Dr. Mukhtar is a two-time Fulbright-Hays Scholar, first in 1983-1984 at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, and then between 1984-1985 at the University of South Carolina in Columbia, South Carolina. He also held fellowships from the Istituto Italiano per l'Africa and the Arab League's Education, Culture and Science Organization (ALECSO), in 1980 and 1981–1982, respectively, as well as from the National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH) in 2002.

Career[edit]
Dr. Mukhtar has long been a producer and correspondent of the BBC African Service, and is presently the Chairperson of the Somalia Committee for Peace and Reconciliation (Ergada) as well as the Inter-Riverine Studies Association (ISA).

He is currently a professor of African & Middle Eastern history at Savannah State University in Savannah, Georgia."

Your problem with Dr Mukhtar is that he is Digil and Mirifle and often represents the Maay speakers.

-----------------------------------------------------

Your sources are BS. Abdullahi Abdurahman (Baadiyow) thought the Periiplus was authored by the Red Sea. He also claimed Mir Ali Bey was representing the Ottoman Empire when in fact Bey was an independent pirate, financed in part by the merchants of Muqdisho and Baraawe.. https://www.somalispot.com/threads/where-are-the-somali-historians.56782/page-2#post-1548497

Your second link is an inadequately researched (Probably Wikipedia.) travelogue by a Dude on a spiritual journey. It's not even historical.

You are really stretching. I will personally take Dr Mukhtar any day of the week.

You see? After I showed you links to back up my evidence. You then make excuses for them and can't accept the fact that you're wrong.

None of my sources are bullshit but certified by most genuine historians. After I refuted you. You decided to call them bullshit just because they don't fit into your narrative. I'm sorry but Mr Mukhar was refuted by countless historians so I don't know why you always stick to him?

Here are the list of modern historians that debunked Mr Mukhar regarding Mogadishu.

Abdullahi Abdurahman
Raphael Chijioke Njoku
Gordon Kerr
Zeynab Ali
Ross E. Dunn
Michael Dumper
Bruce E. Stanley

Plus, we're disputing over many things and you have failed to provide sources while I provided many authentic sources to back up every inch of claim I made so, therefore, you have lost the debate. You only brought a terrible historian regarding Mogadishu but the rest of the topic we were discussing about like the Ajuran Sultanate, Geledi Sultanate, Benadir coast, Swahili coast liberation and etc. You seem to fail to provide the evidence for your other absurd claims but instead, you just repeat the same old nonsense I have previously debunked.

I even quoted other medieval travellers like Ibn Sa'id, Vasco Da Gama and Ibn Battuta who all visited Mogadishu and they too seem to disagree with Mr Mukhtar.

 

[Grant]

You see? After I showed you links to back up my evidence. You then make excuses for them and can't accept the fact that you're wrong.

None of my sources are bullshit but certified by most genuine historians. After I refuted you. You decided to call them bullshit just because they don't fit into your narrative. I'm sorry but Mr Mukhar was refuted by countless historians so I don't know why you always stick to him?

Here are the list of modern historians that debunked Mr Mukhar regarding Mogadishu.

Abdullahi Abdurahman
Raphael Chijioke Njoku
Gordon Kerr
Zeynab Ali
Ross E. Dunn
Michael Dumper
Bruce E. Stanley

Plus, we're disputing over many things and you have failed to provide sources while I provided many authentic sources to back up every inch of claim I made so, therefore, you have lost the debate. You only brought a terrible historian regarding Mogadishu but the rest of the topic we were discussing about like the Ajuran Sultanate, Geledi Sultanate, Benadir coast, Swahili coast liberation and etc. You seem to fail to provide the evidence for your other absurd claims but instead, you just repeat the same old nonsense I have previously debunked.

I even quoted other medieval travellers like Ibn Sa'id, Vasco Da Gama and Ibn Battuta who all visited Mogadishu and they too seem to disagree with Mr Mukhtar.


You're over 70 years old. Go to the care home because you're not only becoming physically weaker but mentally too. When you become too old. You lose too many brain cells and I can understand why you bullshit when it comes to Somali history and genetic anthropology.

You also don't like Dr Ali Abdirahman Hersi,. You call him a metaphysician because he disagrees with you.

Refuted me? Not at all. And I'll bet you can't show a single place each of your authors refuted Dr Mukhtar. You call Dr Hersi names, but don't even try to show where he is wrong.

Your silliness goes way over the top. For crying out loud, your second link above is a spiritual travelogue.

 

[Apollo]

That is not an answer. You claim the northern Somali clans formed in the South and that Maay and Maxaa speakers are the same. If so, the genetics should be similar. You have not covered J1 or linked anything specifically to the Maay speakers.

Furthermore, the D and M say that Sab-Samaale is a Maxaa thing. They descend from the two sons of Mad Reewin.

So, where did the southeast Ethiopian Cushites come from. I have been under the impression you were saying the northeastern Sudan.

The key is timeframe here.

Cushites initially came from the NE Sudan region, it still holds, but where South Cushitic as a separate entity developed was SE Ethiopia/SW Somalia before they went off to Kenya and North Tanzania.

I don't want to get into the nitty-gritty of tribal HGs. It doesn't matter overall if those lineages were present in the region for a few thousand years. Most likely most Rahanweyn are E-M78/E-V32 like the Garre.

 

[Factz]

You also don't like Dr Ali Abdirahman Hersi,. You call him a metaphysician because he disagrees with you.

Refuted me? Not at all. And I'll bet you can't show a single place each of your authors refuted Dr Mukhtar. You call Dr Hersi names, but don't even try to show where he is wrong.

Your silliness goes way over the top. For crying out loud, your second link above is a spiritual travelogue.

"Historical dictionary of Somalia" was published in 1975 so you're relying on outdated sources and "The Invention of Somalia" is also outdated and is not really a history book but is talking about socioeconomics and tribal politics. If anyone is engaging in a ludicrous folly, it's definitely you.

All my sources are updated and accepted by most historians today. I've listed the modern historians who have refuted Dr Mukhtar regarding Mogadishu. I don't need to repeat myself again old man.

You have failed to provide sufficient evidence about Ajuran Sultanate, Geledi Sultanate, Benadir coast and the Swahili coast liberation but instead provided outdated and unreliable sources regarding Mogadishu. You have already lost the debate. All you're doing is wasting my time and your time.

 

[Grant]

The key is timeframe here.

Cushites initially came from the NE Sudan region, it still holds, but where South Cushitic as a separate entity developed was SE Ethiopia/SW Somalia before they went off to Kenya and North Tanzania.

I don't want to get into the nitty-gritty of tribal HGs. It doesn't matter overall if those lineages were present in the region for a few thousand years. Most likely most Rahanweyn are E-M78/E-V32 like the Garre.

So I am right on all counts. V-32 accounts for only part of the northern haplotypes and the genetic bases for Maay and Maxaa are not the same.

 

[Grant]

"Historical dictionary of Somalia" was published in 1975 so you're relying on outdated sources and "The Invention of Somalia" is also outdated and is not really a history book but is talking about socioeconomics and tribal politics. If anyone is engaging in a ludicrous folly, it's definitely you.

All my sources are updated and accepted by most historians today. I've listed the modern historians who have refuted Dr Mukhtar regarding Mogadishu. I don't need to repeat myself again old man.

You have failed to provide sufficient evidence about Ajuran Sultanate, Geledi Sultanate, Benadir coast and the Swahili coast liberation but instead provided outdated and unreliable sources regarding Mogadishu. You have already lost the debate. All you're doing is wasting my time and your time.

As I thought, you have no evidence that would support a refutation of any kind, of me or of Dr Mukhtar. Your fake Wikipedia pages don't get it.

 

[repo]

Af maay is definitely a distinct language cause even the Somali government did not consider it Somali when the Latin script was being made and Af maxaa was chosen to be taught throughout Somalia. It's also mutually unintelligible I view them as the Scandinavian languages.

 

[Apollo]

So I am right on all counts. V-32 accounts for only part of the northern haplotypes and the genetic bases for Maay and Maxaa are not the same.

Wrong,

Firstly, how often do I have to repeat that T1a exists all over East Africa, including Northern Tanzanians. If you sample enough Maays you will find T1a as well. The Maay are not T1a-free. It simply isn't their majority lineage just like it is not for the Habar Awal nor Darod who are Maxaa.

Secondly, go look up what population bottleneck and founder effect mean. This is genetics 101. T1a in Somalis is associated with Dir or proto-Dir paternal descent. That's about it. It does not carry any other additional genetic weight besides this. The whole genome of T1a Somalis is the same as E1b1b1 ethnic Somalis and they cluster similarly just like your white ass with E1b1b1 isn't any more Middle Eastern than your cousin with R1b.

 

[Factz]

As I thought, you have no evidence that would support a refutation of any kind, of me or of Dr Mukhtar. Your fake Wikipedia pages don't get it.

I'm sorry but the one who posted edited Wikipedia articles and opinionated blogs as their piece of evidence was you. I simply posted new & authentic sources to back up every claim I made and all you did was make excuses for them due to the fact they don't it into your narrative since clearly, you have an agenda to discredit Somali history and divide the Somali people.

What you have to understand is Mohamed Haji Mukhtar book is outdated and unreliable. Multiple of latest sources that have been further researched have refuted his errors. I've already shared them sources here. Stop pretending and go read my last posts.

You have yet to provide sufficient evidence regarding Ajuran Sultanate, Geledi Sultanate, Benadir coast and the Swahili coast liberation. Every claim you made about them is erroneous and not backed up by any historian. You've been lying and wasting people's time the whole time. Consider yourself debunked.

 

[madaxweyne]

@Grant
are you seriously making an argument with ev32 and t1a lineages
their both somali or assosiated with protocushitic migrations belonging to the wider
afroasiatic peoples or west asian farmers from the middle east

thier simply native cushitic somali lineages now just like r1b and youre farmer e1b1b is now a native European lineage, why should it be different for somalis besides europeans have t1a assosiated with the west asian farmer ancestry that we have aswell

 

[Apollo]

@Grant
are you seriously making an argument with ev32 and t1a lineages
their both somali or assosiated with protocushitic migrations belonging to the wider
afroasiatic peoples or west asian farmers from the middle east

thier simply native cushitic somali lineages now just like r1b and youre farmer e1b1b is now a native European lineage, why should it be different for somalis besides europeans have t1a assosiated with the west asian farmer ancestry that we have aswell

MENA farmer ancestry is the same in the Maxaa as that 3,100 YBP North Tanzanian pastoralist.

Grant and his ideas are fucked by this fossil's autosomal results, just like Afrocentrists were screwed by Ancient Egyptian genome results.

 

[Finesse]

These White men have not stopped colonising us.

They want to become experts on OUR country, OUR history and OUR language so that they can benefit financially or socially among their other racist peers.

Imagine a Somali man going to Cornwall and telling them about THEIR history or opening a website dedicated to Cornish people.


Just over a hundred years ago, they were measuring our skulls and genitals and now they're on here trying to MISEDUCATE us.

Soon (if they haven't done so already), they will write theses and books about Somalia and Somalis to brainwash the stupid among us.

Grant and James Dahl, go study your neanderthal forebears and leave us alone.

 

[madaxweyne]

These White men have not stopped colonising us.

They want to become experts on OUR country, OUR history and OUR language so that they can benefit financially or socially among their other racist peers.

Imagine a Somali man going to Cornwall and telling them about THEIR history or opening a website dedicated to Cornish people.


Just over a hundred years ago, they were measuring our skulls and genitals and now they're on here trying to MISEDUCATE us.

Soon (if they haven't done so already), they will write theses and books about Somalia and Somalis to brainwash the stupid among us.

Grant and James Dahl, go study your neanderthal forebears and leave us alone.

most of what you said was not true am guessing youre a women

europeans never colonised us the most of the south was ruled by the geledi
or majeeerteen sultanate the north was taken by the darwiish
who ruled and fought the british to a standstill and ended in a peace treaty
and somaliland became a PROTACTORATE

europeans measured our skulls and called us Mediterranean caucasians
youre just trying to fit in with the Madows abayo

anyhow @James Dahl is a cool guy @Grant is just a confused old man
who gets corrected once in a while dont take it personal

this is the horn of africa 1915 we where always independent and unruly

 

[Samaalic Era]

These White men have not stopped colonising us.

They want to become experts on OUR country, OUR history and OUR language so that they can benefit financially or socially among their other racist peers.

Imagine a Somali man going to Cornwall and telling them about THEIR history or opening a website dedicated to Cornish people.


Just over a hundred years ago, they were measuring our skulls and genitals and now they're on here trying to MISEDUCATE us.


Soon (if they haven't done so already), they will write theses and books about Somalia and Somalis to brainwash the stupid among us.

Grant and James Dahl, go study your neanderthal forebears and leave us alone.

 

[James Dahl]

James Dahl, go study your neanderthal forebears and leave us alone.

I haven't actually taken the DNA test on whether I have much neanderthal DNA though I probably do.

Your anger is justified but misplaced. There are indeed many people who have imposed colonialist narratives over Somali history and continue to colonize Somalia but I am not one of them. I am a student of history, that's all.

 

[Finesse]

most of what you said was not true am guessing youre a women

europeans never colonised us the most of the south was ruled by the geledi
or majeeerteen sultanate the north was taken by the darwiish
who ruled and fought the british to a standstill and ended in a peace treaty
and somaliland became a PROTACTORATE

europeans measured our skulls and called us Mediterranean caucasians
youre just trying to fit in with the Madows abayo

anyhow @James Dahl is a cool guy @Grant is just a confused old man
who gets corrected once in a while dont take it personal

this is the horn of africa 1915 we where always independent and unruly

View attachment 66529

What happened after 1915? We were EXPLOITED for a short period of time, but we were still exploited.


The British and French colonised the North West and the Italians South Somalia.


Whatever you call these agreements, they came about after we fought them and we sadly lost.
They bombed us so it was not a fair fight so there is no shame in admitting the facts.