Quran alone Muslims.

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

You guys should look up the strongest arguments for Quranism. I personally think there's a strong theological case behind it.

What do you have in mind?

 

[MadNomad]

What do you have in mind?

One argument they make is that it's humanly impossible for Bukhari to have memorized as many Hadiths as he claimed. The claim is somewhere in the hundreds of thousands, which he then trimmed down to less than ten thousand as authentic. He's only human after all, unless God gave him special powers.

They also make arguments from the Quran, how the Quran is complete and so on. There's even a verse that says Allah has perfected the religion with the Quran.

Also, the Quran and authentic Hadiths often contradict. Like the punishment for adultery, which is explicitly stated to be flogging in the Quran, and yet the Hadiths prescribe stoning.

The Quran says "to you your religion and to me mine", and yet the authentic Hadiths commands death for apostates.

The Quran says Muhammad didn't come with physical miracles, and that his only miracle is the Quran. But the authentic Hadiths has Muhammad preforming many miracles, like splitting the moon, healing the sick etc.

There's much more you can read up on if you'd like.

 

[embarassing]

I'm trying to diminish Islam however I can, including misleading people about it.

Lool, you do a horrible job at it. Why can't you just leave people alone? There are no "extremists" here. Leave them alone the way they leave you alone with your atheism.

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

One argument they make is that it's humanly impossible for Bukhari to have memorized as many Hadiths as he claimed. The claim is somewhere in the hundreds of thousands, which he then trimmed down to less than ten thousand as authentic. He's only human after all, unless God gave him special powers.

They also make arguments from the Quran, how the Quran is complete and so on. There's even a verse that says Allah has perfected the religion with the Quran.

Also, the Quran and authentic Hadiths often contradict. Like the punishment for adultery, which is explicitly stated to be flogging in the Quran, and yet the Hadiths prescribe stoning.

The Quran says "to me be my religion and to you be yours", and yet the authentic Hadith commands death for apostates.

The Quran says Muhammad didn't come with physical miracles, and that his only miracle is the Quran. But the authentic Hadiths have Muhammad preforming many miracles, like splitting the moon, healing the sick etc.

There's much more you can read up on if you'd like.

I agree with some of those criticisms. The Quran is very emphatic on freedom of religion. It says There is no compulsion in religion, and lakum deenakum wa liya deen, and refers numerously to apostates without ever once talking about an earthly punishment for them, yet many hadiths contradict these verses and urge violence against people.

Are you a supporter of Edip Yuksel? He's a fairly prominent Quranist theologian.

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

@Shamis

Have you heard of sheikh Atabek Shukurov? He wrote a book called Hanafi Principles of Testing Hadiths. He shows that Imam Abu Hanifa was critical of the bogus hadiths industry for which he was attacked by Bukhari:

 

[MadNomad]

I agree with some of those criticisms. The Quran is very emphatic on freedom of religion. It says There is no compulsion in religion, and lakum deenakum wa liya deen, and refers numerously to apostates without ever once talking about an earthly punishment for them, yet many hadiths contradict these verses and urge violence against people.

Are you a supporter of Edip Yuksel? He's a fairly prominent Quranist theologian.

I was a big fan of him at one point in my life, and even now as an agnostic i support the arguments he makes. I think it's pretty obvious that the Hadiths probably had nothing to do with the actual historical Muhammad.

 

[Zuleikha]

@Shamis quranism leads to atheism take @Amun for example.

Islam is simple, don't make it complicated. As long as you belief and follow the five pillars of islam and the 6 pillars of faith there is no worries

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

I was a big fan of him at one point in my life, and even now as an agnostic i support the arguments he makes. I think it's pretty obvious that the Hadiths probably had nothing to do with the actual historical Muhammad.

Agnostic? Bisinka. Edip and I don't always agree, but he's a better theologian than hadith forging Wahabbis who insult Allah and his Messenger by spreading false and defamatory stories about them. I've long argued that if non-Muslims wrote about the Prophet (PBUH) some of what is in Bukhari, there would be a riot. The Quran says Allah sent the prophet as a "mercy to all mankind", but hadiths paint him as a warlord who took child brides and kept sex slaves. Total blasphemy.

 

[MadNomad]

Agnostic? Bisinka. Edip and I don't always agree, but he's a better theologian than hadith forging Wahabbis who insult Allah and his Messenger by spreading false and defamatory stories about them. I've long argued that if non-Muslims wrote about the Prophet (PBUH) some of what is in Bukhari, there would be a riot. The Quran says Allah sent the prophet as a "mercy to all mankind", but hadiths paint him as a warlord who took child brides and kept sex slaves. Total blasphemy.

Yes, agnostic.

The Hadiths paint a very unflattering picture of Muhammad, you're right about that. Which is why i find it odd how so many Muslims defend them with their lives.

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

@Shamis quranism leads to atheism take @Amun for example.

Islam is simple, don't make it complicated. As long as you belief and follow the five pillars of islam and the 6 pillars of faith there is no worries

6 pillars of Islam?

Most atheists are ex-Salafis, not Quranists. It's fake hadiths that produce gaalnimo because nobody can stand their contradictions and absurdities. That's why scholars have called for hadith books to be revised to exclude bogus narrations that conflict with the Quran, science, and human rights.

 

[anonimo]

Another bait thread by non other than Shamis.

 

[Jodeci]

I am a Sunni Muslim,

I would say most atheists I saw came from the Salaf/Wahabi background as opposed to the Quraniyoon(?) Side

I can understand the argument for the Quraniyoon Side , but then again I can also understand why some people can be surprised at their conclusions.


Like for the Shia hadith, can we honestly believe Imam Ali actually said this?

1. (Narrated) Ali bin Ibrahim, from Haroon bin Muslim, from Mas’adah bin Ziyad, from Abu Abdullah [as] said: Amirul-Mu’mineen Ali [as] said:

“Beware of marrying the Negroes (Zunj) for they are an ugly creation.” (al-Kafi, fil Furoo’: Book of Nikah, Chapter: Whom Are Disliked for Marriage, Narration 1)

I think both sides need to have a conversation.

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

I am a Sunni Muslim,

I would say most atheists I saw came from the Salaf/Wahabi background as opposed to the Quraniyoon(?) Side

I can understand the argument for the Quraniyoon Side , but then again I can also understand why some people can be surprised at their conclusions.


Like for the Shia hadith, can we honestly believe Imam Ali actually said this?

1. (Narrated) Ali bin Ibrahim, from Haroon bin Muslim, from Mas’adah bin Ziyad, from Abu Abdullah [as] said: Amirul-Mu’mineen Ali [as] said:

“Beware of marrying the Negroes (Zunj) for they are an ugly creation.” (al-Kafi, fil Furoo’: Book of Nikah, Chapter: Whom Are Disliked for Marriage, Narration 1)

I think both sides need to have a conversation.

That's one racist hadith.

Ibn Taymiyyah said the same thing. He claimed Arabs were better than all races.

He also said you could masturbate through a hole in a piece of leather. A twisted guy.

 

[Jodeci]

That's one racist hadith.

Ibn Taymiyyah said the same thing. He claimed Arabs were better than all races.

He also said you could masturbate through a hole in a piece of leather. A twisted guy.

I only listen to historical Somali scholars

 

[MadNomad]

That's one racist hadith.

Ibn Taymiyyah said the same thing. He claimed Arabs were better than all races.

He also said you could masturbate through a hole in a piece of leather. A twisted guy.

Don't forget Al Tabari.

Quite a lot of famous Islamic scholars were fairly racist.

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

I only listen to historical Somali scholars

What do you think of Imam Tawhidi? He destroys Sunni and Shia literalists and exposes their books to ridicule:

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

Don't forget Al Tabari.

View attachment 33118

Quite a lot of famous Islamic scholars were fairly racist.

Ya ilahay yaqaana. Kulaha there is no good in Turks, Slavs, and adoon.

That's why these books need to be revised. They contain irrational, tribal, bigoted, and outdated ideas like those. We need ijtihad. Scholars have to keep what is useful and discard what is not. Classical theologians were men of their time under the influence of the prevailing ideas of their age. They didn't question things like slavery, racism, tyranny, sectarianism, oppression of women and religious minorities.

 

[Ferrari]

They say that since the Quran says it's complete that they don't hace to foll8w the sunnah. They also say that hadith weren't collected and put into books until many, many years after the prophet Muhammad pbuhs death.

But the Quran says obey the prophet in so many verses.
if they are quranists, what do they have to say about that?

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

But the Quran says obey the prophet in so many verses.
if they are quranists, what do they have to say about that?

The Quran says the Messenger is an explainer of what is in the Quran and that he doesn't offer his own opinion. Only hadiths that explain what is in the Quran are valid. Hadiths that bring new laws are fake.

 

[Ferrari]

The Quran says the Messenger is an explainer of what is in the Quran and that he doesn't offer his own opinion. Only hadiths that explain what is in the Quran are valid. Hadiths that bring new laws are fake.

But the hadiths come from the same source, i.e same author. How do you agree and disagree with the same author disregarding some of his work as baseless and unauthentic and other parts as true? It doesn't make sense.