Quran alone Muslims.

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

But the hadiths come from the same source, i.e same author. How do you agree and disagree with the same author disregarding some of his work as baseless and unauthentic and other parts as true? It doesn't make sense.

How can they come from the same author when they contradict the Quran? They even contradict each other.

 

[MadNomad]

But the hadiths come from the same source, i.e same author. How do you agree and disagree with the same author disregarding some of his work as baseless and unauthentic and other parts as true? It doesn't make sense.

Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188:

Narrated ‘Amru bin Maimun: “During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them.”

Do you think this happened? It's a authentic hadith in Bukhari.

 

[Ferrari]

Do you think this happened? It's a authentic hadith in Bukhari.

I don't know whether it happened or not, but if ur asking if it sounds plausible, i'd probably say no like everyone else.
now, my question was how can someone disregard this hadith for example, but agree to the ones discussing verses of the Quran since they both come from bukhari?

 

[MadNomad]

I don't know whether it happened or not, but if ur asking if it sounds plausible, i'd probably say no like everyone else.
now, my question was how can someone disregard this hadith for example, but agree to the ones discussing verses of the Quran since they both come from bukhari?

It becomes an entirely subjective practice of picking and choosing which Hadiths suit your tastes. And it's not an intellectually honest way to go about things. Either you accept them all, or you question the author.

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

I don't know whether it happened or not, but if ur asking if it sounds plausible, i'd probably say no like everyone else.
now, my question was how can someone disregard this hadith for example, but agree to the ones discussing verses of the Quran since they both come from bukhari?

Google "contradictions in the hadith". Muslim scholars have written books on them. Hadiths are full of discrepancies. For example, one hadith in Bukhari says the prophet died at 60. Another says he died at 63. A third hadith in Sahih Muslim says he died at 65. Which is it?

There's a hadith which says the prophet lived in Mecca for 10 years. Another says he lived in Mecca for thirteen years. Which is it? Look it up. There are many errors like that in Bukhari.

 

[Ferrari]

It becomes an entirely subjective practice of picking and choosing which Hadiths suit your tastes. And it's not an intellectually honest way to go about things. Either you accept them all, or you question the author.

That was my point.

 

[Ferrari]

Google "contradictions in the hadith". Muslim scholars have written books on them. Hadiths are full of discrepancies. For example, one hadith in Bukhari says the prophet died at 60. Another says he died at 63. A third hadith in Sahih Muslim says he died at 65. Which is it?

There's a hadith which says the prophet lived in Mecca for 10 years. Another says he lived in Mecca for thirteen years. Which is it? Look it up. There are many errors like that in Bukhari.

I am aware of that. My point was all these hadiths come from the same books, if u can invalidate some of them, might as well invalidate the whole book?

 

[xisaabiye]

@Shamis quranism leads to atheism take @Amun for example.

Islam is simple, don't make it complicated. As long as you belief and follow the five pillars of islam and the 6 pillars of faith there is no worries

This right here, no need to dig deep

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

I am aware of that. My point was all these hadiths come from the same books, if u can invalidate some of them, might as well invalidate the whole book?

If you're aware of these discrepancies, then what are yu suggesting - that we follow books which are riven with contradictions? I gave only two examples. There are literally pages and pages of this stuff.

 

[xisaabiye]

Hadith have different ranking from Mutawatur(rigorously authentic), Sa7ee7(authrntic), hasan(good), da3eef(weak) to mawdoo3(fabricated). Then there's which part of the hadith was narrated by who, & if the narration is sound, but the chain is weak because one of the narrators is known to be forgetfull etc. It's a insanely deep science subhanAllah & people literally spend there lifetimes to have any clout in it. Just to give you an example of how intense hadith studies are, you traditionally couldn't memorize a hadith unless you learnt it from someone who had a chain of narrators going back to the prophet(saw). You'd then have to learn everyone in that chain, their life, characteristics etc. It's actually very intense alx the old generations did all the work

 

[MadNomad]

"Narrated Anas bin Malik: A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you should join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and whey were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261)"

I'm looking over Hadith and found this gem @Bidaar Wanagsan

 

[xisaabiye]

Don't forget Al Tabari.

View attachment 33118

Quite a lot of famous Islamic scholars were fairly racist.

Imam tabari was a historian as well, many things he compiled weren't classified as authentic by any means. When it came to history the Ulama were very lenient with their sources as long as it didn't contradict usuuli principals in Islam

 

[xisaabiye]

I'm looking over Hadith and found this gem @Bidaar Wanagsan

What's your quarrel & you should provide the sharh by ibn hajar al asqalani

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

I'm looking over Hadith and found this gem @Bidaar Wanagsan

Pretty sick. What do we have here - the prophet telling people to drink camel piss and then torturing them to death. No wonder those guys became apostates. If someone told me to drink piss, I'd run a mile. This is the second hadith which says the prophet encouraged drinking urine. Totally fake hadith.

 

[MadNomad]

Imam tabari was a historian as well, many things he compiled weren't classified as authentic by any means. When it came to history the Ulama were very lenient with their sources as long as it didn't contradict usuuli principals in Islam

Wasn't he a major influence on later scholars like Ibn Kathir and Al Qurtubi?

 

[Jodeci]

Look at this shia fuckery

I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom." [9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'

 

[MadNomad]

Pretty sick. What do we have here - the prophet telling people to drink camel piss and then torturing them to death. No wonder those guys became apostates. If someone told me to drink piss, I'd run a mile. This is the second hadith which says the prophet encouraged drinking urine. Totally fake hadith.

Don't forget the double dipping of flies if they drop into your drink. There's some weird medicinal advice in the hadith.

 

[xisaabiye]

Wasn't he a major influence on later scholars like Ibn Kathir and Al Qurtubi?

At tabari was mainly a scholar of tafsiir and secondarily history. But as I said, when it comes to collecting narrations of historical events they would use any source just to give history context. Even ahlul kitaab sources, where this story that you quoted is actually from. As long as it didn't disagree with usool & aqeeda they would compile these sources.

 

[MadNomad]

At tabari was mainly a scholar of tafsiir and secondarily history. But as I said, when it comes to collecting narrations of historical events they would use any source just to give history context. Even ahlul kitaab sources, where this story that you quoted is actually from. As long as it didn't disagree with usool & aqeeda they would compile these sources.

My Islamic teacher some time back told me Imam Tabari was a major influence in Sunni Islam. Later scholars based much of their understanding of the Quran on his books.

 

[embarassing]

I am a Sunni Muslim,

I would say most atheists I saw came from the Salaf/Wahabi background as opposed to the Quraniyoon(?) Side

I can understand the argument for the Quraniyoon Side , but then again I can also understand why some people can be surprised at their conclusions.


Like for the Shia hadith, can we honestly believe Imam Ali actually said this?

1. (Narrated) Ali bin Ibrahim, from Haroon bin Muslim, from Mas’adah bin Ziyad, from Abu Abdullah [as] said: Amirul-Mu’mineen Ali [as] said:

“Beware of marrying the Negroes (Zunj) for they are an ugly creation.” (al-Kafi, fil Furoo’: Book of Nikah, Chapter: Whom Are Disliked for Marriage, Narration 1)

I think both sides need to have a conversation.

Shia hadith are in a league of their own, they don't even have chains of narration.