Quran alone Muslims.

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xisaabiye

Ibnu Suxuufi Ibnu Al Dhoobe
My Islamic teacher some time back told me Imam Tabari was a major influence in Sunni Islam. Later scholars based much of their understanding of the Quran on his books.

Imam at tabari is one of the major mufasir of the Quran. But like i said, he was a historian in his own right. When it came to history that predated the prophet(as) scholars weren't as rigorous as they were with hadith narration, rightfully so. This is well known, it's not like you stumbled on something lol
 

MadNomad

As i live and breathe

Some anti bacterial properties found on its wings does not mean you will be cured of whatever disease it carries. But by all means, try it. Dip flies into your food and water and see how that goes :mjpls:

Some more Hadith science for you

Narrated Sa`d:
I heard Allah’s Messenger saying, “Whoever takes seven ‘Ajwa dates in the morning will not be effected by magic or poison on that day.” Sahih al-Bukhari 5779
Vol. 7, Book 71, Hadith 671

Eat dates and you won't be effected by poison, care to try this theory out? :mjpls:
 
Hadith have different ranking from Mutawatur(rigorously authentic), Sa7ee7(authrntic), hasan(good), da3eef(weak) to mawdoo3(fabricated). Then there's which part of the hadith was narrated by who, & if the narration is sound, but the chain is weak because one of the narrators is known to be forgetfull etc. It's a insanely deep science subhanAllah & people literally spend there lifetimes to have any clout in it. Just to give you an example of how intense hadith studies are, you traditionally couldn't memorize a hadith unless you learnt it from someone who had a chain of narrators going back to the prophet(saw). You'd then have to learn everyone in that chain, their life, characteristics etc. It's actually very intense alx the old generations did all the work:axvmm9o:
All those points are dealt with by scholars of hadith and they still conclude that Bukhari needs to be revised to exclude many narrations that were formerly classed as authentic but which are not and which mislead people. See professor Israr Ahmed Khan's book Authenticating Hadith: Redefining The Criteria for one example. A good review here:

http://www.mohammedamin.com/Reviews/Authentication-of-Hadith-Redefining-the-Criteria.html
 

xisaabiye

Ibnu Suxuufi Ibnu Al Dhoobe
Some anti bacterial properties found on its wings does not mean you will be cured of whatever disease it carries. But by all means, try it. Dip flies into your food and water and see how that goes :mjpls:

Some more Hadith science for you



Eat dates and you won't be effected by poison, care to try this theory out? :mjpls:

I guess that article caught you off guard:icon lol:

Hadith like all speech contains specifics, generals, metaphors, literal, ambiguous. When the prophet saw said things, he didn't just say it. There were conversations taking place, or a precedent to his words. Unfortunately many people are dimwitted & read the hadith as if it's the only words the prophet saw uttered in his life, therefor no context. You're best to read the sharh of these ahadith bukhari they're written by ibn hajar al asaqalani. This hadith clearly has a context
 

MadNomad

As i live and breathe
I guess that article caught you off guard:icon lol:

Hadith like all speech contains specifics, generals, metaphors, literal, ambiguous. When the prophet saw said things, he didn't just say it. There were conversations taking place, or a precedent to his words. Unfortunately many people are dimwitted & read the hadith as if it's the only words the prophet saw uttered in his life, therefor no context. You're best to read the sharh of these ahadith bukhari they're written by ibn hajar al asaqalani. This hadith clearly has a context

I actually knew of that article long ago, i used to debate Muslims online about Islam some years back and was presented with that exact article.

Where's the metaphor in this hadith? Seems to be straight forward advice.
 
Imam tabari was a historian as well, many things he compiled weren't classified as authentic by any means. When it came to history the Ulama were very lenient with their sources as long as it didn't contradict usuuli principals in Islam
That's a bit disingenuous. Tabari approached all his works with the same rigour. He took pains to include only what he believed was sound. He was not lenient at all. And yet he still made errors and mistakes. Both in his tafsir and in his approach to hadith. Which is to be expected. He was only human. No man made work is free of error. We should admit this and correct it, not deify theologians. No sheikh is above criticism.
 

xisaabiye

Ibnu Suxuufi Ibnu Al Dhoobe
I actually knew of that article long ago, i used to debate Muslims online about Islam some years back and was presented with that exact article.

Where's the metaphor in this hadith? Seems to be straight forward advice.

It doesn't seem general to me at all, the specific could be due to an affliction the person he was speaking to had, maybe a stomach poisoning he was suffering from. My point was, the prophet didn't just BLURT words out, He(saw) was a person that engaged & spoke & gave advice etc.
 

xisaabiye

Ibnu Suxuufi Ibnu Al Dhoobe
That's a bit disingenuous. Tabari approached all his works with the same rigour. He took pains to include only what he believed was sound. He was not lenient at all. And yet he still made errors and mistakes. Both in his tafsir and in his approach to hadith. Which is to be expected. He was only human. No man made work is free of error. We should admit this and correct it, not deify theologians. No sheikh is above criticism.

My point wasn't whether he made mistakes or not. My point was how the ulama traditionally approached history. Like the stories of the older prophets, not all of it was ever considered authentic by any means. They were very lenient when it came to sourcing for history. & for that reason these things were never binding on the muslim to believe
 

MadNomad

As i live and breathe
It doesn't seem general to me at all, the specific could be due to an affliction the person he was speaking to had, maybe a stomach poisoning he was suffering from. My point was, the prophet didn't just BLURT words out, He(saw) was a person that engaged & spoke & gave advice etc.

Ok, agree to disagree.

And what about the drinking of camel urine? That's in Sahih Bukhari. Even the world health organization had to come out and warn against it since people in the middle east got sick from it.
 

xisaabiye

Ibnu Suxuufi Ibnu Al Dhoobe
Ok, agree to disagree.

And what about the drinking of camel urine? That's in Sahih Bukhari. Even the world health organization had to come out and warn against it since people in the middle east got sick from it.

No don't say you agree to disagree, just say you never looked at it from that perspective...which many ppl dont:icon lol:

The same applies with this hadith. What was going on, why is it only related to this specific situation. Ibn ishaq relates that these people were suffering from some type of endemic, was it specific organic medicine used to cure that endemic? What kind of camel was it, did the milk not have enough nutrients due to drought thus he ordered the mixing of urine which contains ph etc. Was the urine pure like that of a baby. What was it's relation to this sickness they had...ma fahantay?

Sxb If you claim to be critical about things, you should be critical enough to look at every angle which is what I do. Not many people know the background of this story & it's relation to an endemic the people were facing.
 

MadNomad

As i live and breathe
No don't say you agree to disagree, just say you never looked at it from that perspective...which many ppl dont:icon lol:

The same applies with this hadith. What was going on, why is it only related to this specific situation. Ibn ishaq relates that these people were suffering from some type of endemic, was it specific organic medicine used to cure that endemic? What kind of camel was it, did the milk not have enough nutrients due to drought thus he ordered the mixing of urine which contains ph etc. Was the urine pure like that of a baby. What was it's relation to this sickness they had...ma fahantay?

Sxb If you claim to be critical about things, you should be critical enough to look at every angle which is what I do. Not many people know the background of this story & it's relation to an endemic the people were facing.

Camel piss has medicinal properties?
 
My point wasn't whether he made mistakes or not. My point was how the ulama traditionally approached history. Like the stories of the older prophets, not all of it was ever considered authentic by any means. They were very lenient when it came to sourcing for history. & for that reason these things were never binding on the muslim to believe
So you think Muslim historians were not strict about authenticating stories about the previous Messengers of Allah such as Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Sulayman, Yusuf, Musa, and Ciisa, but somehow, by magic, they managed to avoid errors about the last Messenger? Pretty illogical. Scholars would never write things about the deen unless they believed in it because Allah would hold them accountable for spreading falsehoods about his prophets. You make it sound as though history is different from hadith. Hadith books are history books too. They're about the past.

Take these hadiths for example. They contradict the most basic things we know about Allah, namely that he is not a human being, but Bukhari says Allah looks like Adam:

"Narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah created Adam in His image, and he was sixty cubits tall. When he created him he said, ‘Go and greet that group of angels who are sitting and listen to how they greet you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your descendents.’ So he said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alaykum,’ and they said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alayka wa rahmat-Allaah’ So they added (the words) ‘wa rahmat-Allaah.’ Everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam, but mankind continued to grow shorter until now.”

Sahih Muslim says:

"Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of you fights his brother, let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in His image.”

Do you think Allah looks like Adam and is sixty cubits tall? It's clear from the second hadith that he's talking about a physical resemblance because it says you should not hit people in the face because they have a similar face to Allah.

This contradicts the Quran which says Allah has no likeness. You should read what the defenders of the hadith say. Their desperation will make you laugh. They claim it doesn't really mean what it says it means. Anything but admit hadiths are not divine.
 
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Merca

Inactive.
I am a Sunni Muslim,

I would say most atheists I saw came from the Salaf/Wahabi background as opposed to the Quraniyoon(?) Side

I can understand the argument for the Quraniyoon Side , but then again I can also understand why some people can be surprised at their conclusions.


Like for the Shia hadith, can we honestly believe Imam Ali actually said this?

1. (Narrated) Ali bin Ibrahim, from Haroon bin Muslim, from Mas’adah bin Ziyad, from Abu Abdullah [as] said: Amirul-Mu’mineen Ali [as] said:

“Beware of marrying the Negroes (Zunj) for they are an ugly creation.” (al-Kafi, fil Furoo’: Book of Nikah, Chapter: Whom Are Disliked for Marriage, Narration 1)

I think both sides need to have a conversation.
Their hadeeth are a load of crap. How can Iman Ali (ra) say that they shouldn’t marry the ‘Negroes’ because they are an ugly creation while some of his descendants married black females (according to their very own hadeeth)?
 

xisaabiye

Ibnu Suxuufi Ibnu Al Dhoobe
So you think Muslim historians were not strict about authenticating stories about the previous Messengers of Allah such as Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Sulayman, Yusuf, Musa, and Ciisa, but somehow, by magic, they managed to avoid errors about the last Messenger? Pretty illogical. Scholars would never write things about the deen unless they believed in it because Allah would hold them accountable for spreading falsehoods about his prophets. You make it sound as though history is different from hadith. Hadith books are history books too. They're about the past.

Take these hadiths for example. They contradict the most basic things we know about Allah, namely that he is not a human being, but Bukhari says Allah looks like Adam:

"Narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah created Adam in His image, and he was sixty cubits tall. When he created him he said, ‘Go and greet that group of angels who are sitting and listen to how they greet you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your descendents.’ So he said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alaykum,’ and they said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alayka wa rahmat-Allaah’ So they added (the words) ‘wa rahmat-Allaah.’ Everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam, but mankind continued to grow shorter until now.”

Sahih Muslim says:

"Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of you fights his brother, let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in His image.”

Do you think Allah looks like Adam and is sixty cubits tall? It's clear from the second hadith that he's talking about a physical resemblance because it says you should not hit people in the face because they have a similar face to Allah.

This contradicts the Quran which says Allah has no likeness. You should read what the defenders of the hadith say. Their desperation will make you laugh. They claim it doesn't really mean what it says it means. Anything but admit hadiths are not divine.

You misunderstood me. Imam tabari & every historian in Islam were lenient with previous history AS LONG as it didnt not contradict the 2 main sources quran & ahaadith. When it came to taarikh they based their history primarily on the quran & hadith & secondarily on the narrations from other texts so as long as they didn't contradict any basic principals in Islam. I'm telling you this is what they mention. They were very honest when recording these stories & spoke about the possibility of inaccuracies & discrepancies they'd come across. When it came to recording hadith they were extremely careful, especially knowing the famous mutawatur hadith that the prophet saw said "He who intentionally tells a lie about me let him take his seat in hell"(paraphrased).

Bro you're doing what the mu3tazila did we these hadith and that's rejecting them based on your dhaahir understanding of them. All these hadith deal with the mutashaabihaat. The salafis went to the opposite extreme of mu3tazilah and became literalists. Read what ibn hajar al asqalani says about this hadith & the ones similar in his book Fathul baari. Imam nawawi dealt with similar ahadith in his sharhul muslim for sahih muslim. All of this has been covered by the ulama. Another thing is, there's a problem with the translation kkk. For example Al istiwa is used as an adjective in the quran & hadith to describe what Allah did, it alone has 15-18 meanings, some of metaphorical meaning in arabic, some being literal, but usually the literal translation is used by saudi publications to push the salafi narrative. If my PM was opened I'd send you a lot of stuff...I don't like getting into this touchy stuff on public forums, it can confuse people
 
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