Somali twitter vs Spanish archaeologist

[The alchemist]

Back to the the fish nonsense.

I spent time reading the primary fictional sources that mentioned these fish-eaters, and let me tell you, these ancient Mediterranean's conflated people all the way from the South Asian coast, to the Gulf, and then somehow skipped over to the Red Sea. Absolutely nowhere was there mention of the Somali coast at all. They mentioned that ancient Bejas ate fish, which had to be only a minor part that splintered off and lived off the coast. We know this by the prevalent historic fish taboo among the tribes, and also explicitly mentioned by these ancient sources that the people largely consumed milk and meat, while another group consumed more agrarian foods. The thing is, the mythology describing these fish eaters seems to conflate all of these diverse peoples, letting us know they just placed one mythological stereotype, because it is exactly like the one in the island off the coast of Arabia. The Bejas that ate fish were more often than not just supplementing their diet while living close to high activity areas, so neither were they isolated, socially diminutive or primitive. And they fished in various ways, not eating food raw or anything.

The reason why these people conflated the entire region was because they believed it was part of one continuous stretch. That is why they confuse people in Pakistan, Arabs in the Gulf, and others, and then suddenly fishermen in the coast and islands of the Red Sea. They believed that was the edge of the world beyond civilization.

But putting all of that to the side, none of the sources ever put the Somali coasts, as we damn sure did not primary subsist of fish and would at rare times be relegated as a convenient supplemet, if ever that, and none of the traits attributed to those other groups can ever be translated in any shape or form or vernacular in the historical Somali condition. It seems these people in a weird racist attempt, dragged what they knew for a fact had nothing to do with us, as how we would have appeared to foreigners, all to denigrate through malice, contempt for what was found, high productivity and wealth, bringing empires to its shores and not the other way around.

These people are deeply racist and this was merely a journey for them to cope with how their preconceived minds about how Africans from this part of the world did things that had to not only be uniquely different from what they knew but also operate in toe to toe with their own economic integrity and production value.

They cited unrelated sources that never addressed us, yet used that to claim that might have been how we appeared to foreigners in shock and awe. What a detestable bunch.

This is why I told you guys I was not reaching when I said they used that image deliberately, as it is hands down the worst vintage picture I have ever come across. They had to parse through all the good stuff to arrive at that, like pick the wackest combination of clothes in a rather fashionable closet. You had to try hard to do bad at that point.

Lastly, they should be decent enough to write up something good if they had primary and first access on our historic resources. They should be thankful, not us smiling like idiots when they give us a mixed bag and undermine us in the filthiest ways.

 

[The alchemist]

Wallahi, when I finally go back and move some lacag and influence around, if I live long enough, I'll legit push the odays to ban western researchers for good. Anyone not of a Somali background carrying a western passport will be forced to either simply be a tourist in the magalaad or leave. Time to bring back the Abanship system our ancestors maintained:



@The alchemist Spaniards seem particularly problematic. I remember it was a Spanish archaeologist in Ethiopia whom some silly Xabashis on Wikipedia were using as a source to claim Somalis were "peripheral" and merely "mercenaries" in the Adal army. Where he got this impression, if the moron had ever even skimmed the Futuh, I don't know.

The thing is, Western researchers are alright if they are not like those Spanish guys. But their work has to be processed. Meaning, we need a board of Somali scholarship. The country has to fund certain scholarships so that local operations oversee and involve themselves with the work and guide the process through real competence.

Also, it would be good to actually choose archeologists and give them funding that allows for something better. In that case, not only do we get nice work but you don't have to deal with weird characters that sniff around random places and ask non-involved locals to dig in their backyard.

Archeologists are more than happy to work most places, let alone new areas, if they get through the funding process, as they are eager to get into the field. Might as well set up a cultural and heritage institution, fund scholarships for students to study abroad, then also vet and reach out for good scholars that are willing to do our history justice. Like the Nubian archeology. And maybe one day, inshallah, we have many Oxford Handbook chapters that talk about things accurately.

Certain researchers have become more ethical than others. One can utilize that.

 

[The alchemist]

I dont think this is a bad thing at all. I actually find it fascinating and it makes me hopeful. It's definitely recent though that's for sure. I couldn't find anything online befofe a couple years ago. It's also not just a diaspora thing either if you look at tiktok or better yet youtube. The amount of videos people make on topics like culture,history,literature,etc has skyrocketed over the last 5 or 6 years. While most of these videos aren't of very high quality they're light years better than what used to be available on YouTube.

I'm honestly curious what's causing this trend ?

A people is rooted by a sense of history, culture, and tradition. It's the way in which people maintain their sense of continuity and identity. It's crucial to have a narrative of who your people were historically. As I mentioned, since there are no ways Somalis casually consume these things, they find other ways to engage in it. The reason things have shot up now is because of the concentration of Somalis in social media networks, maturation of content through platforms and participations such as these processing and presenting information from research and delving into new research of history using many academic sources, and probably a strong sense of people wanting to distinguish themselves as the nation, used a a sense of people-hood as we're a severely underrated people.

Basically there is a surge because of many reasons that had to hit critical points before it exploded.

This is not new to us. I was in Egypt many years ago, several times. The locals had no concept of the pharaonic age and did not even identify with it. Now, on the other hand, you would see all types of Egyptians highly internalizing that history, with every other guy having some type of AE image on social media and many of them engaging in genetics, too. Part of it is because of Sisi's plan in highlighting nationalistic aspects of tying such history to legitimize the state and foster engagement for tourism.

 

[Rayaale]

Back to the the fish nonsense.

I spent time reading the primary fictional sources that mentioned these fish-eaters, and let me tell you, these ancient Mediterranean's conflated people all the way from the South Asian coast, to the Gulf, and then somehow skipped over to the Red Sea. Absolutely nowhere was there mention of the Somali coast at all. They mentioned that ancient Bejas ate fish, which had to be only a minor part that splintered off and lived off the coast. We know this by the prevalent historic fish taboo among the tribes, and also explicitly mentioned by these ancient sources that the people largely consumed milk and meat, while another group consumed more agrarian foods. The thing is, the mythology describing these fish eaters seems to conflate all of these diverse peoples, letting us know they just placed one mythological stereotype, because it is exactly like the one in the island off the coast of Arabia. The Bejas that ate fish were more often than not just supplementing their diet while living close to high activity areas, so neither were they isolated, socially diminutive or primitive. And they fished in various ways, not eating food raw or anything.

The reason why these people conflated the entire region was because they believed it was part of one continuous stretch. That is why they confuse people in Pakistan, Arabs in the Gulf, and others, and then suddenly fishermen in the coast and islands of the Red Sea. They believed that was the edge of the world beyond civilization.

But putting all of that to the side, none of the sources ever put the Somali coasts, as we damn sure did not primary subsist of fish and would at rare times be relegated as a convenient supplemet, if ever that, and none of the traits attributed to those other groups can ever be translated in any shape or form or vernacular in the historical Somali condition. It seems these people in a weird racist attempt, dragged what they knew for a fact had nothing to do with us, as how we would have appeared to foreigners, all to denigrate through malice, contempt for what was found, high productivity and wealth, bringing empires to its shores and not the other way around.

These people are deeply racist and this was merely a journey for them to cope with how their preconceived minds about how Africans from this part of the world did things that had to not only be uniquely different from what they knew but also operate in toe to toe with their own economic integrity and production value.

They cited unrelated sources that never addressed us, yet used that to claim that might have been how we appeared to foreigners in shock and awe. What a detestable bunch.

This is why I told you guys I was not reaching when I said they used that image deliberately, as it is hands down the worst vintage picture I have ever come across. They had to parse through all the good stuff to arrive at that, like pick the wackest combination of clothes in a rather fashionable closet. You had to try hard to do bad at that point.

Lastly, they should be decent enough to write up something good if they had primary and first access on our historic resources. They should be thankful, not us smiling like idiots when they give us a mixed bag and undermine us in the filthiest ways.

Very detailed explanation, how do you manage to find this, do you have a background in history and anthropology

 

[Idilinaa]

@The alchemist I appreciate you taking the time to expose us to their ways. I haven't fully read every part but i will in due time and add my 2 cents. I think there is a good way for us to organize our arguments and response to them, taking everything you and others have shared.

Your main points seem to be:

Somalis had established markets and trade hubs – The Periplus explicitly mentions trade with locals in various Somali coastal regions, without any indication that foreigners set up the trade infrastructure.

The Spanish archaeologists misuse cosmopolitanism by acknowledging Somali participation in global trade while simultaneously downplaying their agency and civilization- They frame Somali involvement as incidental or passive, rather than as a sign of an advanced, well-integrated society.

No evidence of foreign colonies or dominance – The text does not suggest Arab or other foreign traders "founded" trade, contrary to the implication that Somalis were just passive participants.

Misuse of the term Ichthyophagoi – While the Periplus associates that term with some Arab fishermen and a minor subgroup of the Beja, Torres and others seem to project it onto Somalis unfairly.

Deliberate historical distortion – The Spanish team, despite having access to the same sources, selectively portrays Somalis in a negative light while omitting details about Arabs and others who actually fit their description of "naked fish-eaters."

Somalis Wore and Traded Clothing – The Periplus explicitly mentions Barbaroi-style clothing being sold in ancient Zaila, contradicting the false portrayal of them as naked primitives.

Archaeological evidence of Somali wealth – Excavations confirm that Somali merchants had luxury goods, indicating prosperity rather than "primitive" living conditions.

Their own findings even disprove them, much like it did for I'M Lewis.

The wealth of the Somali coast, the complexity of trade networks, and the evidence of sophisticated economic structures completely undermine the false narrative of "simple nomads." These scholars are scrambling to reconcile material evidence of prosperity with their ingrained belief that African societies must have been inferior or rudimentary.

Infact, just looking at the excerpt from Periplus that you shared with us it implies Economic Sophistication. Contrary to Spanish claims, the Periplus describes Somalis as tough negotiators, indicating deep market knowledge and strong internal trade networks.

 

[The alchemist]

@The alchemist I appreciate you taking the time to expose us to their ways. I haven't fully read every part but i will in due time and add my 2 cents. I think there is a good way for us to organize our arguments and response to them, taking everything you and others have shared.

Your main points seem to be:

Somalis had established markets and trade hubs – The Periplus explicitly mentions trade with locals in various Somali coastal regions, without any indication that foreigners set up the trade infrastructure.

The Spanish archaeologists misuse cosmopolitanism by acknowledging Somali participation in global trade while simultaneously downplaying their agency and civilization- They frame Somali involvement as incidental or passive, rather than as a sign of an advanced, well-integrated society.

No evidence of foreign colonies or dominance – The text does not suggest Arab or other foreign traders "founded" trade, contrary to the implication that Somalis were just passive participants.

Misuse of the term Ichthyophagoi – While the Periplus associates that term with some Arab fishermen and a minor subgroup of the Beja, Torres and others seem to project it onto Somalis unfairly.

Deliberate historical distortion – The Spanish team, despite having access to the same sources, selectively portrays Somalis in a negative light while omitting details about Arabs and others who actually fit their description of "naked fish-eaters."

Somalis Wore and Traded Clothing – The Periplus explicitly mentions Barbaroi-style clothing being sold in ancient Zaila, contradicting the false portrayal of them as naked primitives.

Archaeological evidence of Somali wealth – Excavations confirm that Somali merchants had luxury goods, indicating prosperity rather than "primitive" living conditions.

Their own findings even disprove them, much like it did for I'M Lewis.

The wealth of the Somali coast, the complexity of trade networks, and the evidence of sophisticated economic structures completely undermine the false narrative of "simple nomads." These scholars are scrambling to reconcile material evidence of prosperity with their ingrained belief that African societies must have been inferior or rudimentary.

Infact, just looking at the excerpt from Periplus that you shared with us it implies Economic Sophistication. Contrary to Spanish claims, the Periplus describes Somalis as tough negotiators, indicating deep market knowledge and strong internal trade networks.

It's generally an alright summary.

A few things, when they say "cosmopolitan", they don't mean Somalis. They use the term exclusively in urban and/or high economic activity places where foreigners have main involvement. They mean cosmopolitanism, pertaining to the diversity of people of separate origins mixed up.

They have not acknowledged our medieval history as it is. Up to this point, most of the text is vague, yet is explicit with the Somali "nomad" phenomenon and treats the "urban" places as distinct entities, like two separate in-group/out-group. So if urban spots are centers, Somalis are basically, were at best, the periphery. However, they started to play the game a bit differently with the Fardowsa sites. There they started to place other conditions, which is usually what they have done with the earlier classical pre-Islamic history.

Torres et al. use fish-eater trope to denigrate the existence of anything remarkable in the region by shoehorning savage mythologies. It's not about strict descriptions of just people eating fish. That is why they claimed that the Mediterranean that came might have been shocked by the locals, saying, these people were primitives, don't let these fancy things build a pleasant image in your minds. Like the mythologies applied to other people that had nothing to do with these ancient Somalis, these people were savage. It's racism. It's a tool of saying, these people were of a lower kind.

 

[The alchemist]

Very detailed explanation, how do you manage to find this, do you have a background in history and anthropology

No, nothing like that. I have an interest in engaging with the history of my people.

 

[Idilinaa]

It's generally an alright summary.

A few things, when they say "cosmopolitan", they don't mean Somalis. They use the term exclusively in urban and/or high economic activity places where foreigners have main involvement. They mean cosmopolitanism, pertaining to the diversity of people of separate origins mixed up.

I saw them do this with city of Hoobad archeological study, although not as blatant as these Spanish archeologists. They use the fact that these commercial centers import products and goods from abroad alongside, the use of domestic goods which they also export to imply the place they imported things from was physically present in those areas. When i showed this to @Shimbiris that they described the place as ''cosmpolitan'' and inferred that other nationalities could have lived there he was like immediately "this is nonsense" there has never been any large migration of foreigners into the interior. Like there is zero remnant community and we didn't see any evidence of this.

It makes less so when you see that the Abaan system restricted foreigners a mostly to the coast to trade with Somali merchants with limited ability for movement.

Basically what they are doing is factor an import for example a porcelain vase from China, and it reaches the city of Hobad, they exchange it with rose vases and spices. It does not mean the place becomes cosmopolitan or mixed or diverse.

The presence of foreign goods in a trade hub does not equate to a diverse, multi-ethnic settlement. Trade centers naturally import and export goods, but that doesn’t mean the people from those foreign regions were physically living there in large numbers.

It’s especially relevant when looking at Somali urban centers—historically, these were controlled and operated by Somalis, even as they traded with the wider world.

It’s like saying medieval London was "Chinese" because it imported silk and porcelain. This misuse of "cosmopolitanism" seems to be another way scholars downplay indigenous agency and self-sufficiency.

None of these settlements were actually depeneded on imports of foreign goods , they had local industries and was filled with local agricultural-pastoral products like i explained that supported their growth, thats the picture we get from external sources and archeology.

It's particularly strange that they emphasize this, the presence of luxury foreign goods, it doesn't tell you anything more than that these were highly rich commercial settlements with high purchasing power to acquire it , not cosmopolitanism.

This seems like an intentional framing tactic to suggest that Somali urban centers were dependent on outside influences rather than thriving independently. In reality, these were wealthy, self-sufficient cities engaging in trade on their own terms. The presence of imported goods is simply a reflection of their prosperity, not an indication that foreigners controlled or dominated these spaces.

 

[Idilinaa]

They have not acknowledged our medieval history as it is. Up to this point, most of the text is vague, yet is explicit with the Somali "nomad" phenomenon and treats the "urban" places as distinct entities, like two separate in-group/out-group. So if urban spots are centers, Somalis are basically, were at best, the periphery. However, they started to play the game a bit differently with the Fardowsa sites. There they started to place other conditions, which is usually what they have done with the earlier classical pre-Islamic history.

Torres et al. use fish-eater trope to denigrate the existence of anything remarkable in the region by shoehorning savage mythologies. It's not about strict descriptions of just people eating fish. That is why they claimed that the Mediterranean that came might have been shocked by the locals, saying, these people were primitives, don't let these fancy things build a pleasant image in your minds. Like the mythologies applied to other people that had nothing to do with these ancient Somalis, these people were savage. It's racism. It's a tool of saying, these people were of a lower kind.

Remember what we went over in this thread?

Futuh al-Habasha: Somalis As Bedouins

I claim to be no linguist, but Somal, Tomal, and Bimaal were most likely occupations or easy ways to distinguish ourselves, the harla were farmers and most likely the name given to them was from the outsider, Arabic in origin, Biimaal probably being the original name, I'm not saying modern day...

www.somalispot.com

The region was originally and majorly inhabited by Somalis. Here is archeological evidence using medieval fauna assemblages that shows the earliest domesticates was the camel.

Whats ironic is that Futuh or any other surviving medieval chronicle doesn't mention the word ''nomad'' not even "bedouin". So the fact there is no direct textual reference to nomads that they could identify , but they still go off to apply it to Somalis as a whole. It really shows how they are projecting their own implicit biases, per-concieved beliefs and stereotypes onto things, rather than being objective.

I mean can you not see the irrationality and the illogic behind it? ,like everything is vague uncertain, possibly ethnically diverse(they have zero proof to btw) until the "nomad" label is applied then it is 100% Somali . Ridiculous.

Meanwhile, they ignore the clear historical and archaeological links between these settlements and Somali agro-pastoral production, which directly ties Somalis to urban centers rather than placing them on the "periphery."

Pastoralism was simply a mode of production, not a marker of exclusion from urban life. It's like reducing the Chinese and Europeans to being peasant farmers and say because the majority of their population were rural food producers, they did not live in those cities/towns, it was foreigners or mixed or cosmopolitan etc And reduce them to their mode of production.

If you look at all the settlements they dig up they are inherently linked to the camel caravan and pastoral production (alongside agriculture). That fact alone shows you that it's these same agro-pastoralists that that set up these settlements as fixed exchange points for their products and they lived in them in the majority with links to the countryside producers.

You even have medieval sources including from the vantage point of our Christian enemies referring to them as camel herding population, the camel was even treated as the separating mark between what was christian and what was Muslim. The only camel holding population in that area by far was Somalis.

Christian depiction of Awfat population being pastoral camel herders alongside agricultural use like utilizing mills to farm plants and this xenophobic fiction is attributed to the Sultan imbued with cultural stereotypes:

How this depiction separates it from nearby Muslims like Aggrobba:

I'm sharing this to set the context for this one last part because it relates to transportation technology and economic growth that came with it. At the center of it was the introduction of the ''Camel Caravan''

It all point to a deeply integrated economic system where Somalis were both rural producers and urban traders. Yet, these scholars twist the evidence to create an artificial division that never existed.

 

[Idilinaa]

Here is a thread that goes through classical sources that mention trade with the Somali coast during antiquity


From a now deleted X account it shared how Somali merchants became incredibly wealthy through their monopoly of certain luxury items, such as a dye they used to colour their clothing with and the colour purple they produced was especially luxurious and considered the colour royalty in ancient times.

1st century Greek papyrus details what Somali textiles would have looked like. The Greek merchant was in Egypt after a long windy voyage from Barbaria, and he talked in detail about the Berber (Somali) dye. He describes the dye as parrot dye due to how colourful it was...

1st century Greek papyrus details what Somali textiles would have looked like.

https://x.com/AromataMerchant/status/1748850979624100283?s=20

www.somalispot.com

I only managed to save a bit of the post through google cache and not the whole part unfortunately. The colour purple was rare and extremely expensive

Why is Purple Considered the Color of Royalty? | HISTORY

The original dye was prized because of supply and demand: It came from the mucous of an exceedingly rare sea snail shell.

www.history.com

Tyrian purple: The lost ancient pigment that was more valuable than gold

For millennia, Tyrian purple was the most valuable colour on the planet. Then the recipe to make it was lost. By piecing together ancient clues, could one man bring it back?

www.bbc.com

Tyrian purple from the Phoenicians is well-documented, but if the Somali coast had its own unique dye that was similarly rare and expensive, that would only reinforce the idea of these merchant elites accumulating immense wealth and influence.

Btw i have been meaning to ask you both @Shimbiris @The alchemist What your thoughts are on this.

Because i believe they might have been city states governed by a council of rich merchant oligarchic clan elders, much like how some Somali cities operated during early modern period. There is no reason to assume otherwise.

They also probably operated similar to other independent city states in the ancient world described here:

Given the extensive trade networks Somali merchants controlled spices, incense, textiles, and possibly even rare dyes , it would make sense that governance was in the hands of a merchant aristocracy rather than a single centralized king. These merchant oligarchs likely managed trade, banking, and diplomatic relations much like their counterparts in Carthage and Tyre.

In that case there is a possibility that these merchant oligarchies formed loose federations or alliances.

It would be fascinating to see if more archaeological or textual evidence could support this comparison. We have textual evidences from medieval period until the early modern period supporting this.

 

[Idilinaa]

Remember what we went over in this thread?

Futuh al-Habasha: Somalis As Bedouins

I claim to be no linguist, but Somal, Tomal, and Bimaal were most likely occupations or easy ways to distinguish ourselves, the harla were farmers and most likely the name given to them was from the outsider, Arabic in origin, Biimaal probably being the original name, I'm not saying modern day...

www.somalispot.com

Whats ironic is that Futuh or any other surviving medieval chronicle doesn't mention the word ''nomad'' not even "bedouin". So the fact there is no direct textual reference to nomads that they could identify , but they still go off to apply it to Somalis as a whole. It really shows how they are projecting their own implicit biases, per-concieved beliefs and stereotypes onto things, rather than being objective.

I mean can you not see the irrationality and the illogic behind it? ,like everything is vague uncertain, possibly ethnically diverse(they have zero proof to btw) until the "nomad" label is applied then it is 100% Somali . Ridiculous.

Meanwhile, they ignore the clear historical and archaeological links between these settlements and Somali agro-pastoral production, which directly ties Somalis to urban centers rather than placing them on the "periphery."

Pastoralism was simply a mode of production, not a marker of exclusion from urban life. It's like reducing the Chinese and Europeans to being peasant farmers and say because the majority of their population were rural food producers, they did not live in those cities/towns, it was foreigners or mixed or cosmopolitan etc And reduce them to their mode of production.

If you look at all the settlements they dig up they are inherently linked to the camel caravan and pastoral production (alongside agriculture). That fact alone shows you that it's these same agro-pastoralists that that set up these settlements as fixed exchange points for their products and they lived in them in the majority with links to the countryside producers.

You even have medieval sources including from the vantage point of our Christian enemies referring to them as camel herding population, the camel was even treated as the separating mark between what was christian and what was Muslim. The only camel holding population in that area by far was Somalis.



It all point to a deeply integrated economic system where Somalis were both rural producers and urban traders. Yet, these scholars twist the evidence to create an artificial division that never existed.

Btw @The alchemist let me share with you something that kinda relates to this. I am sure you will love how this Archeologist capture the complexity and sophistication of certain ancient societies, particularly Gobekli Tepe

Just as these orientalists, conflate pastoralism with nomadism and use it to divorce them from the sedentary structures that they themselves built. Reduced them to "simple nomads"

Conspiracy theorists out there do the exact same when it comes to hunter gatherers in certain locations, and say no way ''simple hunter gatherers" or "primitive hunter gatherers" built them. But no archeologists working on those sites described them to be simple or primitive

As he explains

"I Have never heard archeologists refer to Hunter Gatherers in this region or time period as ''simple'' or ''primitive''. Hunting and gathering refers to a method of food acquisition. That's it. It's not a term that refers to the technological level or building skills of people."

Go to timestamp @5:30


It's the same with Pastoralism, i have to often remind people that is simply a mode of food production, not a determinant of political or economic complexity.

He mentions other things that are applicable to Somalis and other NorthEast African agro-pastoralists like the Nubian/Sudanese in archeological records, like systematic food gathering, organized economic activity and creation of storage facilities. The tools they used etc.

With Somalis however unlike the "Tas Tepeler" cultural zone you have these biased Spanish archeologists find storage facilities and remnants of permanent stone houses in Bari and say they were used by nomads lmaao

But the whole thread reads like misrepresentation, re-urgitating the same nomad schtick even that erases the economic complexity.

They had large stone warehouses where they stored products before shipping it .

"I climb to a hill overlooking the estuary and come across the stone warehouses where they stored high value goods.........before shipping them to Rome, Ctesiphon or Mandagora.->"

This actually underscores the sophistication and importance of the Somali coast in the ancient global trade network. Showing hows it was a central player in the exchange of luxury goods between Africa, Asia, and Europe. The storage facilities likely played a role in regulating trade, including the collection of customs duties or taxes.

They placed it in an elevated area for security, accessibility and visibility. Interesting.

They were pastoralist producers and there are urban towns people that are extensions of them.

Pastoralism doesn't automatically mean nomadic. They need to learn to separate this.

Since he also says nomads used to live in stone houses in Bandar Khor ;

"I walk away from the coast and among the stone plinths of old houses. These are the houses of the nomads who came to trade in Bandar Khor. Dozens of houses. As if they had left yesterday.->"

How does nomads live in stone houses? If they were temporary camps they would have built them out of perishable materials. Stone and brick houses are used for permanent long term dwellings. It actually sounds like a thriving settlement with a permanent population. They likely belonged to local merchants, traders, artisans, and other residents who were directly involved in the trade economy

You have to deeply committed to a stereotype to believe a nomadic group lived in permanent stone houses and used stone storage facilities to house their own goods before shipping.

I have also explained that formation of centralized states happen when someone taxes the surplus production. When someone takes control of the surplus mode of production and redistributes it, creates a tax base from it to support a central authority, that is where centralized states start to emerge from. Then out of that non-agricultural work force comes a class separation between producers and non-producers.

The most pastoralist driven areas of historical Somalia actually had a monarchy and artistocratic class structure Bari-Nugaal for example and later Hobyo in the late 1800s. It was also the most stable area of Somalia , that had state structure that survived until the 20th century when the Southern and Northwestern one fragmented from disruption of trade routes( oromo invasion) at turn of the late 1600s.

CLASS FORMATION AND GENDER IN PRECOLONIAL SOMALI SOCIETY: A RESEARCH AGENDA

CLASS FORMATION AND GENDER IN PRECOLONIAL SOMALI SOCIETY: A RESEARCH AGENDA on JSTOR

Lidwien Kapteijns, Jay Spaulding, CLASS FORMATION AND GENDER IN PRECOLONIAL SOMALI SOCIETY: A RESEARCH AGENDA, Northeast African Studies, Vol. 11, No. 1 (1989), pp. 19-38

www.jstor.org

But yeah as you can see pastoralism is no different from subsistence farming, its just mode of food production.

When someone takes control of the surplus mode of production and redistributes it, creates a tax base from it to support a central authority, that is where centralized states start to emerge from it.

Then out of that non-agricultural work force comes a class separation between producers and non-producers.

Most of those regions including Somalia has a long history of stable imperial rule. So its completely false to believe that just because they are divided into lineage based clans/tribes that they somehow are pre-disposed to fracture and divide into antagonistic groups.

Here is quote from a book that study political history of the region on the eve of colonialism:

''but also with the recent historians' revision of the relevance of the concept of historically stable , purely lineage based tribes in Arabian Peninsula. As we saw in Majerteenia, tribalism and lineage-based identification became a problematic source of conflict not because lineage societies are inherently disposed to fracture and divide into mutually antagonistic groups; on the contrary , these regions have long history of stable imperial rule bolstered by a cooperative climate of international relations.''

It also supports what i've been stressing and arguing on this site that, the current political predicaments of middle east and Somalia is geo-political in nature and somewhat loosely connected to a colonial past.

 

[Idilinaa]

@Midas @The alchemist @Shimbiris

Also one other thing i want to mention they gloss over this, not fully comminicating the implications behind it. Translated from one of their tweets.

"I climb to a hill overlooking the estuary and come across the stone warehouses where they stored [various goods] before shipping them to Rome, Ctesiphon or Mandagora.->"

The fact that Somali coastal settlements had proper trade infrastructure like stone warehouses. That implies a level of economic organization well beyond simple bartering . likely involving taxation, record-keeping, and regulated commerce.

This suggests that these cities had a sophisticated trade infrastructure, complete with mechanisms for storing, managing, and distributing goods.

Another thing i got from it is that the warehouses were placed on elevated ground, which suggests security and logistical planning. Controlling access to high-value goods and having oversight over trade routes would have been crucial for maintaining dominance in regional and long-distance trade.

 

[Midas]

@Midas @The alchemist @Shimbiris

Also one other thing i want to mention they gloss over this, not fully comminicating the implications behind it. Translated from one of their tweets.

View attachment 356454
The fact that Somali coastal settlements had proper trade infrastructure like stone warehouses. That implies a level of economic organization well beyond simple bartering . likely involving taxation, record-keeping, and regulated commerce.

This suggests that these cities had a sophisticated trade infrastructure, complete with mechanisms for storing, managing, and distributing goods.

Another thing i got from it is that the warehouses were placed on elevated ground, which suggests security and logistical planning. Controlling access to high-value goods and having oversight over trade routes would have been crucial for maintaining dominance in regional and long-distance trade.

One of the most glaring flaws with the idea of where are the settlements is that the main areas that were inhabited then are all large towns now as well and were continually used througouf the medieval period and werent really abandoned. Bossaso(mossylon) berbera (maolao) migadishu (sarapion). Any roman era settlement is likley buried under countless layers.

 

[Midas]

Also an intresting fact that just occurred to me. Is that heredotus mentions nubia and the proto somalis (macrobians). But he makes no refrences to any pouplation between them. Leading me to think the politieis that would become aksum weren't significant enough to warrant a mention.

 

[Midas]

There's also no specific knowledge of yemen but just a general understanding of arabia. Even though the ancient yemeni kingdoms already had reached a certain level of sophistication by herodotus's time. So we can't really tell how advanced these proto somalis were. But the fact they're mentioned as well as a description of their customs is significant there obviously must have been a decent amount of contact.

 

[Idilinaa]

One of the most glaring flaws with the idea of where are the settlements is that the main areas that were inhabited then are all large towns now as well and were continually used througouf the medieval period and werent really abandoned. Bossaso(mossylon) berbera (maolao) migadishu (sarapion). Any roman era settlement is likley buried under countless layers.

Exactly, the continuity of Somali coastal settlements. They definitely experienced declines and revivals. What you just said right now points to the continuous occupation and urban evolution of these sites.

Finding above ground materials or standing structures are going to be rare(unless they are made from extremely durable materials and we know some of the houses were probably made of wood), because of erosion over the years. I mean look at certain structures from the medieval period they are all eroded , even the Arabic writings on them have been eroded/washed away in just a few years time, since they were last documented.

Erosion is the geological process in which earthen materials are worn away and transported by natural forces such as wind or water. The Horn of Africa’s climate—marked by strong coastal winds, seasonal floods, and high humidity—accelerates erosion.

So you will stand to gain more from looking or excavating under ground or digging.

I have said before that the sand dunes that cover the coast are an advantage in the sense that they are great preservation material and are kind of shield against erosion.

Btw @Midas @Cartan Boos @Aseer @Step a side @Zak12 @Galool

There is great potentiality to this. Because if the ancient quarters of mogadishu and the rest of of the old coastal settlements are buried under sand dunes , we might reclaim a lot of that past and their monuments, if they aren't destroyed before being abandoned that is.

They unearthed basically thousands of year old monuments. tombs and cities under sand in good perservation across Egypt, Sudan, Middle east and Meso-America.

They also discover manuscripts, libraries and textual fragments in the sand as well.

The Mysterious Library Hidden in the Sand​

The Enigma of the Dead Sea Scrolls.​

Libraries in the sand reveal Africa's academic past​

https://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyle/science/libraries-in-the-sand-reveal-africa-s-academic-past-idUSL10685745/

Even in Egypt , thanks to the preservation in sand they have a collection of papyrus documents and fragments.
The majority of surviving papyrus documents have either come from the desert areas in Egypt, where many had been buried by sand until they began to be excavated in the late 19th century,

As they add
Sand is also a great preservative, as Egyptologists have found. In fact, there is no knowing what you may find, in the sand grains themselves or in the dunes behind the beach, along a river, or far out in the desert. It is always worth looking.

Lucky for us but that semi-arid climate coupled with Sand is good perservation material.

Predicting the preservation of cultural artefacts and buried materials in soil

This study identifies factors affecting the fate of buried objects in soil and develops a method for assessing where preservation of different materia…

www.sciencedirect.com

In dry and more arid climates, bones, teeth and shells, metals, glass, plaster and organic materials will be preserved better.

Coastal towns becoming buried under sand dunes is something continues to this day

‘Swallowed by the sand’: Somalia’s coastal towns succumb to the desert​

‘Swallowed by the sand’: Somalia’s coastal towns succumb to the desert

As deforestation removes protection from the ferocious winds, compounding damage from climate crisis-driven drought, sand dunes are burying the medieval port of Hobyo. Will pledges to green the desert save communities already displaced by war?

www.theguardian.com

Even the tomb of Sultan Ali Yusuf on the coastal town of Hobyo is buried today under sand dunes, i remember seeing Puntlandvault post the current situation, where you can only see the edge barely visible above ground.

When you look at the descriptions by the British Pirate that was captured in Mogadishu in year 1701 on the royal monuments & tomb and the Mujahideen/army tombs it says it is located 2 miles away from the Old town , it is more than likely buried deep under sand and not visible to people above ground

It's weird how these Spanish archeologists try to derive over-arching generalized detailed conclusions and understandings from one or two ancient test sites and from surviving above ground materials.

Many of these new Western archaeologists have approached Somali history with a narrow and flawed methodology, leading to incomplete or misleading conclusions.

They also ignore local context and environmental Factors. Unlike cities in Europe, where stone castles and churches may survive for centuries above ground, Somali settlements were heavily influenced by coastal erosion, sand movement, and repurposing of materials.

A more accurate approach would account for environmental decay and emphasize subterranean excavation.

Like you said, Roman-era would likely be beneath layers of accumulated sand, silt, and newer construction rather than standing in plain sight.

 

[Shimbiris]

Here is a thread that goes through classical sources that mention trade with the Somali coast during antiquity


From a now deleted X account it shared how Somali merchants became incredibly wealthy through their monopoly of certain luxury items, such as a dye they used to colour their clothing with and the colour purple they produced was especially luxurious and considered the colour royalty in ancient times.

1st century Greek papyrus details what Somali textiles would have looked like.

https://x.com/AromataMerchant/status/1748850979624100283?s=20

www.somalispot.com

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I only managed to save a bit of the post through google cache and not the whole part unfortunately. The colour purple was rare and extremely expensive

Why is Purple Considered the Color of Royalty? | HISTORY

The original dye was prized because of supply and demand: It came from the mucous of an exceedingly rare sea snail shell.

www.history.com

Tyrian purple: The lost ancient pigment that was more valuable than gold

For millennia, Tyrian purple was the most valuable colour on the planet. Then the recipe to make it was lost. By piecing together ancient clues, could one man bring it back?

www.bbc.com

Tyrian purple from the Phoenicians is well-documented, but if the Somali coast had its own unique dye that was similarly rare and expensive, that would only reinforce the idea of these merchant elites accumulating immense wealth and influence.

Btw i have been meaning to ask you both @Shimbiris @The alchemist What your thoughts are on this.

Because i believe they might have been city states governed by a council of rich merchant oligarchic clan elders, much like how some Somali cities operated during early modern period. There is no reason to assume otherwise.

They also probably operated similar to other independent city states in the ancient world described here:
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Given the extensive trade networks Somali merchants controlled spices, incense, textiles, and possibly even rare dyes , it would make sense that governance was in the hands of a merchant aristocracy rather than a single centralized king. These merchant oligarchs likely managed trade, banking, and diplomatic relations much like their counterparts in Carthage and Tyre.

In that case there is a possibility that these merchant oligarchies formed loose federations or alliances.

It would be fascinating to see if more archaeological or textual evidence could support this comparison. We have textual evidences from medieval period until the early modern period supporting this.

I'll have to do some re-reading and deeper reading on this when I sit down to make a post on the classical "Barbaria" period as I'd call it but the general impression I got about the northern city-states/market-towns is that they were ruled by "Chieftains".

The only time we're given any idea how they're governed, if I'm not mistaken, is by the Periplus, where it's stated each port has its own ruling chieftain and is independent. This gave me the impression that the situation was similar to what one would see during the Early Modern Period where each port—or several ports like in the case of the early modern northeast—were ruled by a particular tribe and its Garaad/Suldaan/Ugaas.

But it's entirely possible these rulers just sort of presided over a council under them like what was likely going on in 1331 Muqdisho where there was clearly a Somali Suldaan but I would be surprised if all the Gibil-Madow and Gibil-Cad tribes he presided over didn't maintain the same sort of council they did in later centuries but simply under him. I mean even during the 19th century you get the sense the Yacqub Abgaaals were essentially the dominant somewhat "ruling" tribe but there was still a council over the city. Wouldn't be shocked if that was the case with these old ports but, sadly, the sources we do have don't go into such detail, as far as I know for now.

 

[Idilinaa]

I'll have to do some re-reading and deeper reading on this when I sit down to make a post on the classical "Barbaria" period as I'd call it but the general impression I got about the northern city-states/market-towns is that they were ruled by "Chieftains".

The only time we're given any idea how they're governed, if I'm not mistaken, is by the Periplus, where it's stated each port has its own ruling chieftain and is independent. This gave me the impression that the situation was similar to what one would see during the Early Modern Period where each port—or several ports like in the case of the early modern northeast—were ruled by a particular tribe and its Garaad/Suldaan/Ugaas.

But it's entirely possible these rulers just sort of presided over a council under them like what was likely going on in 1331 Muqdisho where there was clearly a Somali Suldaan but I would be surprised if all the Gibil-Madow and Gibil-Cad tribes he presided over didn't maintain the same sort of council they did in later centuries but simply under him. I mean even during the 19th century you get the sense the Yacqub Abgaaals were essentially the dominant somewhat "ruling" tribe but there was still a council over the city. Wouldn't be shocked if that was the case with these old ports but, sadly, the sources we do have don't go into such detail, as far as I know for now.

One of the medieval arabic mentions described the city of Zayla was like this as well. Said they were populated by a race of "blacks" separated into tribes(clans) lead by seven chiefs.

This was written at the time when Walashma sultans exerted influence and rulership over it and we know from the local chronicles it had a governor ruling over it.

But sources on Zayla they also mention it to a be a very populous city with a silver and mercury mine near it and at times a kingdom, But usually saw it as a city state and then other times it is attributed to a wider civilization, empire or race called "Land of Zayla", "Confederation of Zayla" or "Zayla'i".

Indicating that it operated under regional suzerainty while maintaining internal autonomy.

Barawa was also described as being ruled by a council of elders by the Portuguese.

It was the same for the Majerteen coastal towns, they were internally governed by a council of elders representing each clan(guurti) with an overarching Na'ib persumably a taxing governor, who adheered to the Sultan in turn.

The governor of Bosaso for example was Ahmed Taajir the brother of Boqor Cusmaan.

It illustrates how dynastic rule coexisted with local governance structures.
More on this here:

CLASS FORMATION AND GENDER IN PRECOLONIAL SOMALI SOCIETY: A RESEARCH AGENDA

CLASS FORMATION AND GENDER IN PRECOLONIAL SOMALI SOCIETY: A RESEARCH AGENDA on JSTOR

Lidwien Kapteijns, Jay Spaulding, CLASS FORMATION AND GENDER IN PRECOLONIAL SOMALI SOCIETY: A RESEARCH AGENDA, Northeast African Studies, Vol. 11, No. 1 (1989), pp. 19-38

www.jstor.org

The chieftans mentioned in Periplus were most likely clan elders who were also wealthy merchants basically oligarchs.

What happens usually they either nominate/elect the leader like what happened in Bardheere, Mogadishu, Berbera and Barawe in the 1800s.

Or are ruled by an overarching Governor/Garaad/Boqor/Sultan/Emire like Harar, Majeerteen coast, Zayla and Luuq also during the 1800s.

Then you also had sharia courts run by Qadis in all of the towns.

I wish we had more detailed information on the cities internal governing structures, we can only infer from what we know from the limited knowledge of medieval and early modern accounts who they themselves are insufficiently studied or understood.

 

[Idilinaa]

There's also no specific knowledge of yemen but just a general understanding of arabia. Even though the ancient yemeni kingdoms already had reached a certain level of sophistication by herodotus's time. So we can't really tell how advanced these proto somalis were. But the fact they're mentioned as well as a description of their customs is significant there obviously must have been a decent amount of contact.

Also when you comprehend what i shared on page 4 , how Somalis limited foreigners knowledge and detailed understandings of their inner workings, restricted them to mostly brief trade dealings on the coast through the system of Abaan sponsorship

The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea (1st century CE) describes how merchants needed local intermediaries in Somali ports. This aligns with later historical accounts where:

- Foreign traders were restricted to designated coastal zones.

- They were not allowed to move inland freely without an Abaan, limiting their understanding of Somali governance, economy, and culture.

- Similar systems existed well into the medieval and early modern periods, ensuring that outsiders never gained full insight into Somali affairs.

This explains why historical texts often present Somali ports as mysterious or loosely understood, despite their significant role in Indian Ocean trade

The absence of detailed descriptions of Somali cities, state structures, and inland civilizations does not mean they were underdeveloped.

 

[Idilinaa]

We can all conclude one thing from this thread discussion: ''The Future of Somali Archaeology Rests On A Call for Somali-Led Research''

Rather than relying on external interpretations, Somali scholars, researchers, and archaeologists must take the lead in uncovering their own history.

If we approach Somali archaeology with the same methodology used in Egypt, Sudan, and the Middle East, there is no doubt that a rich historical record awaits discovery.