Somaliland armed forces day

[jugjugwacwac]

SSDF had no reason to rebel but SNM did

you are clearly throwing those unarmed nomad civilians who got murdered under the bus by giving these all excuses. Those nomads thought the xabashi were the enemy and were watching out of the bad xabashi boogieman while another bunch of Somalis betrayed them and used their government given weapons (which were supposed to be used under the xabash enemy) to settle old scores. now you need to stop beating around the bush and say that those nomad civilians being killed didn't matter which is how you feel.

I would also agree with you if elders didn't try and sort it out peacefully by complaining to the government and to the dictator directly. a simple armed unit in that area to stop this would've solved all the commotion, heck even inviting the guys he was giving weapons to and telling them to stop would've worked. but clearly he didn't care about those civilians.

you are an excuseman, coming up with million excuses to rationalise what your propagate, "why didn't isaaq just take it", "at least other Somalis are killing you, it would be worse if its the xabashi" etc

in 1991, SNM tried to set up national unity government but obviously other rebel groups didn't feel like it.

the reason why you want to live under kacaan is because your reer abti were booliqran

sxb, don't make this Ogaden killing our nomads into a huge deal. It's not like we didn't fight back. It was Ogadeen then, then when we created Somaliland look what happened within ISaaq during our civil war 1994-97? Look what happened about 8 years ago or so in Daroor between Ciidagale and Habar Yoonis, where over a 100 men were killed in a couple of days. Look at the ceel afwayn skirmishes recently, when HJ and HY went at it. Clans always fight sxb.

But I wasn't alive then, so maybe this sitation was different and maybe these armed ogaadeens were totally out of control...i Don't know. If that was the case and Siyaad refused to do anything about it, then I understand why ISaaqs would form a rebel group. But my point still stands, the rebel groups messed things up and made the north and south of the country weaker, less developed and with a bad reputation compared to the kacaan.

So once again, maybe SNM did have a good reason to rebel, I'm willing to give them that. But What they and the other rebel groups gave us to inherit is utter shit, and wallahi u know this too. Sxb half our population is at risk of dying of starvation as we speak, last week the mayor of Baligubadle was kidnapped by liyuu booliis with no respose from our army or so called government. Somaliland as a political, economic and military entity is a complete joke.

 

[merka]

Siyaad Barre was a ruthless dictator who purged any potential threats to his power, that I agree with. But if ur gonna claim he committed atrocities on peaceful protesters during the 70's ur gonna have to bring proof. When he would purge political threats it wasn't along clan lines, so Isaaqs weren't singled out and targeted thats for sure. The man would get rid of anyone who was a threat, even if Daarood. The only atrocities committed during the late 70's was the killing of Majeerteen people and the poisening of their wells in Mudug, and I believe Bari region, due to the facgt that the 1977 coup leaders were almost all Majeerteen and for the fact that the SSDF was predominently a Majeerteen rebel group. In fact, during the late 70's the Isaaqs and the Kacaan on very good terms, and many of the military generals who were sent to quell the MAjeerteen rebellion were Isaaq, some of whom are still alive and active in Somaliland today. We only fell out with Siyaad later in 1981 when we formed the SNM. That's when he felt betrayed and began persecuting us.

If u have proof to show otherwise im all ears saaxiib. I actually wish i could find something that would justify

Sorry I meant the 80's. The SNM was only a small opposition group in the diaspora in 1981, the majority of Isaaq didn't support them until the mid 80s.

The UFFO protest was a major turning point putting the people against the regime.

Notes on my Teacher’ Group is a story about UFFO, their arrest and trial written by Jama Musse Jama, one of the students who participated in the protest.

UFFO is Somali word which means the wind before the rain.

In 1980’s UFFO was a symbol of change. A young group of doctors, engineers, teachers and intellectuals organized themselves to advocate for the deteriorating condition suffered by the people in this northwestern part of Somalia. They spoke of the neglect and hardships, and launched actions to mobilize the public to improve conditions of hospitals and schools.

The Siad Barre military regime answered by arresting UFFO members, they were sent to prison, some in solitary confinement and sentenced to die. Their arrest triggered anger among youth and students, for them UFFO was a symbol of change, a symbol of hope.

The students passed secret notes and messages to signal the start of the protest. Student leaders from Farah Omar, June 26 and Gaan Liba led the huge number of youth from various secondary schools to march to the District Court of Hargeisa. The mission, to protest against the abduction and arrest of their teachers and UFFO members.

Military forces and prosecutors from the south was brought to Hargeisa to conduct and secure the court hearing.

The detemined masses of students, armed with stones and agitated by the repressive treatment of the government in the South stood their ground. The mobilization was confronted by technicals (military vehicles with artilleries) and armed soldiers. Their protest was met by force, the soldiers open fired targetting youth demonstrators as young as 12 years old. In defense and anger, the students retaliated by throwing stones. Hundreds of them were arrested, beaten, imprisoned and some lost their lives.

This action is highly remembered because it triggered massive resistance against the dictatorship. Men from various clans, fathers, brothers and students themselves started joining the Somali National Movement (SNM) an armed group that was during that time

http://www.redsea-online.com/books/mtg/

 

[waraabe]

sxb, don't make this Ogaden killing our nomads into a huge deal. It's not like we didn't fight back. It was Ogadeen then, then when we created Somaliland look what happened within ISaaq during our civil war 1994-97? Look what happened about 8 years ago or so in Daroor between Ciidagale and Habar Yoonis, where over a 100 men were killed in a couple of days. Look at the ceel afwayn skirmishes recently, when HJ and HY went at it. Clans always fight sxb.

But I wasn't alive then, so maybe this sitation was different and maybe these armed ogaadeens were totally out of control...i Don't know. If that was the case and Siyaad refused to do anything about it, then I understand why ISaaqs would form a rebel group. But my point still stands, the rebel groups messed things up and made the north and south of the country weaker, less developed and with a bad reputation compared to the kacaan.

So once again, maybe SNM did have a good reason to rebel, I'm willing to give them that. But What they and the other rebel groups gave us to inherit is utter shit, and wallahi u know this too. Sxb half our population is at risk of dying of starvation as we speak, last week the mayor of Baligubadle was kidnapped by liyuu booliis with no respose from our army or so called government. Somaliland as a political, economic and military entity is a complete joke.

if killing civilians isn't a big deal what are you complaining about? why are you complaining about Ethiopia killing civilians since it isn't a big deal?

 

[jugjugwacwac]

Sorry I meant the 80's. The SNM was only a small opposition group in the diaspora in 1981, the majority of Isaaq didn't support them until the mid 80s.

The UFFO protest was a major turning point putting the people against the regime.


http://www.redsea-online.com/books/mtg/

I know all this sxb. I know Siyaad started cracking down on ISaaqs post 1981, but thats because we formed the SNM. Obviously a paranoid dictator who trying to hold firmly on to power is gonna overreact when a group of professionals and intellectuals from a clan that has already raised a rebel group against you forms a group in the second biggest city in Somalia. Like, of course Siyaad would arrest them, thats totally predictable for the kind of leader he was. My point is, he didn't arrest them because he hated ISaaqs, like most Isaaqs would have u believe, he arrested them because the SNM made him deeply paranoid and vigilant of ISaaqs. It was the same with Majeerteens, who even though they are his fellow Daarood, he showed them no mercy when they formed the SSDF.

Anyway, rebelling and staging a coup is fine as long as u can unite your country and bring back stability and normalcy. The rebel groups, including the SNM, failed to do that and for that reason I give them a failing grade.

If ur not in denial youd admit they failed us. In Somaliland we cannot defend our territorial integrity, Fact! We cannot save our popualtion from dying of thirst and hunger in 2017, Fact! We don't have any economy to speak or jobs for our youth, Fact! We are losing precious youth to tahriib, where many die and others are raped or have their organs harvested, Fact! We are despised refugees all over the world, Fact!

 

[jugjugwacwac]

if killing civilians isn't a big deal what are you complaining about? why are you complaining about Ethiopia killing civilians since it isn't a big deal?

What difference does it make if a Ogaadeen kills me or a a fellow Isaaq. Either way i've been killed by a Somali.

 

[waraabe]

I know all this sxb. I know Siyaad starting cracking down on ISaaqs post 1981, but thats because we formed the SNM. Obviously a paranoid dictator who trying to hold firmly on to power is gonna overreact when a group of professionals and intellectuals from a clan that has already raised a rebel group against you forms a group in the second biggest city in Somalia. Like, of course Siyaad would arrest them, thats totally predictable for the kind of leader he was. My point is, he didn't arrest them because he hated ISaaqs, like most Isaaqs would have u believe, he arrested them because the SNM made him deeply paranoid and vigilant of ISaaqs. It was the same with Majeerteens, who even though they are his fellow Daarood, he showed them no mercy when they formed the SSDF.

Anyway, rebelling and staging a coup is fine as long as u can unite your country and bring back stability and normalcy. The rebel groups, including the SNM, failed to do that and for that reason I give them a failing grade.

If ur not in denial youd admit they failed us. In Somaliland we cannot defend our territorial integrity, Fact! We cannot save our popualtion from dying of thirst and hunger in 2017, Fact! We don't have any economy to speak or jobs for our youth, Fact! We are losing precious youth to tahriib, where many die and others are raped or have their organs harvested, Fact! We are despised refugees all over the world, Fact!

still doing better then somalia

 

[waraabe]

What difference does it make if a Ogaadeen kills me or a a fellow Isaaq. Either way i've been killed by a Somali.

so why cry about Ethiopian killing you. why have a state if you are going to be killed by those who share a state with you

 

[jugjugwacwac]

still doing better then somalia

You and Isaaqs like you are beholden to clan ideology which has rendered you into delusional supporters of your own undoing.

And just for the record, I was comparing Somaliland to 1970's kacaan. To justify the rebellion you'd have to claim we r doing better than 1970's Somali republic.

And the only thing we are doing better than Somalia in is the peace, that's it. No other indicator of development or well being.

 

[jugjugwacwac]

so why cry about Ethiopian killing you. why have a state if you are going to be killed by those who share a state with you

My people, the Somalis, are savage and are willing to kill for their clans. It will take a strong central government to make them too fearful to engage in their fratricidal bloodlust. So with a strong central government clan wars will end, and ethiopians can also never invade us. So i've solved both problems right there.

My point was u keep harping on about the Ogaadeen nomads killing some of our nomads. My point was even Isaaqs nomads kill each other. But if indeed Siyaad Barre was complicit in these killings by the Ogaadeen or deliberately turned a blind eye then maybe the SNM was justified. Regardless I give them a failing grade because what they gave us to replace the kacaan is like replacing a prime cut of top sirloin steak with canned sardines. We are now like the gypsies...if SNM and Somaliland is so great why aren't we all back home living there, and why is everyone who is there willing to die in the high seas at a chance for a life elsewhere?

 

[waraabe]

You and Isaaqs like you are beholden to clan ideology which has rendered you into delusional supporters of your own undoing.

And just for the record, I was comparing Somaliland to 1970's kacaan. To justify the rebellion you'd have to claim we r doing better than 1970's Somali republic.

And the only thing we are doing better than Somalia in is the peace, that's it. No other indicator of development or well being.

I pray to Allah that the current situation stays the same for the next 100 years so I can see you cry some more

 

[waraabe]

My people, the Somalis, are savage and are willing to kill for their clans. It will take a strong central government to make them too fearful to engage in their fratricidal bloodlust. So with a strong central government clan wars will end, and ethiopians can also never invade us. So i've solved both problems right there.

My point was u keep harping on about the Ogaadeen nomads killing some of our nomads. My point was even Isaaqs nomads kill each other. But if indeed Siyaad Barre was complicit in these killings or deliberately turned a blind eye then maybe the SNM justified. Regardless I give them a failing grade because what they gave us to replace the kacaan is like replacing a prime cut of top sirloin steak with canned sardines. We are now like the gypsies...if SNM and Somaliland is so great why aren't we all back home living there, and why is everyone who is there willing to die in the high seas at a chance for a life elsewhere?

if this, if that. there are no ifs or buts. SNM were justified and they should've taken revenge the USC.

 

[jugjugwacwac]

I pray to Allah that the current situation stays the same for the next 100 years so I can see you cry some more

I don't even know why i'm debating with a troll. Where's Merka, he's a reasonable chap. I await his responses.

 

[waraabe]

I don't even know why i'm debating with a troll. Where's Merka, he's a reasonable chap. I await his responses.

you are the trolling telling us killing innocent nomads is justified.

 

[merka]

I know all this sxb. I know Siyaad started cracking down on ISaaqs post 1981, but thats because we formed the SNM. Obviously a paranoid dictator who trying to hold firmly on to power is gonna overreact when a group of professionals and intellectuals from a clan that has already raised a rebel group against you forms a group in the second biggest city in Somalia. Like, of course Siyaad would arrest them, thats totally predictable for the kind of leader he was. My point is, he didn't arrest them because he hated ISaaqs, like most Isaaqs would have u believe, he arrested them because the SNM made him deeply paranoid and vigilant of ISaaqs. It was the same with Majeerteens, who even though they are his fellow Daarood, he showed them no mercy when they formed the SSDF.

Anyway, rebelling and staging a coup is fine as long as u can unite your country and bring back stability and normalcy. The rebel groups, including the SNM, failed to do that and for that reason I give them a failing grade.

If ur not in denial youd admit they failed us. In Somaliland we cannot defend our territorial integrity, Fact! We cannot save our popualtion from dying of thirst and hunger in 2017, Fact! We don't have any economy to speak or jobs for our youth, Fact! We are losing precious youth to tahriib, where many die and others are raped or have their organs harvested, Fact! We are despised refugees all over the world, Fact!

The regime targeted innocent Isaaq civilians for no other reason that the SNM members were Isaaq. He armed Ogadeni, Gadabursi and Dhulbahante militia to kill civilians and take their property. The government's plan was to evict "unpatriotic" Isaaq civilians out of their traditional homeland and replace them with more friendly clans. What choice was there other than to rebel?

Somaliland for all it's faults is much better now than it was during Barre's regime. The entire region was severely neglected during his rule and you had to go all the way to Mogadishu just to get basic services. The region is developing much better now than before.

 

[merka]

This was Hargeisa under Barre's Regime...

And this was Mogadishu...

So much for Somalinimo.

 

[jugjugwacwac]

The regime targeted innocent Isaaq civilians for no other reason that the SNM members were Isaaq. He armed Ogadeni, Gadabursi and Dhulbahante militia to kill civilians and take their property. The government's plan was to evict "unpatriotic" Isaaq civilians out of their traditional homeland and replace them with more friendly clans. What choice was there other than to rebel?

Somaliland for all it's faults is much better now than it was during Barre's regime. The entire region was severely neglected during his rule and you had to go all the way to Mogadishu just to get basic services. The region is developing much better now than before.

I don't disagree with ur first paragraph because ur basically making my point for me. You said say he targeted us because we shared a clan with the SNM. So your admitting the persecution came after the forming of the SNM. If there was serious and unbearable oppression specifically targeting Isaaqs that came before 1981 show me sxb, i'm willing to listen and change my opinion on this.

As for our lack of devleopment, then that was Siyaads policy for the whole country. He focused developments and government services in Mogadishu. His own clan province of Gedo was almost totally neglected by him, so it wasn't an anti-isaaq policy.

Also, the claim that Somaliland is doing much better now than udner the kacaan is a bold faced lie. Yeah maybe for the fat cat politicians and businessmen, but the avergage person is so much worse off now than ever before. Just look at the drought and the response of our so called government, and compare it to how Siyaad handled the drought of daba-dheer in 1975. Thats just one example.

 

[merka]

I don't disagree with ur first paragraph because ur basically making my point for me. You said say he targeted us because we shared a clan with the SNM. So your admitting the persecution came after the forming of the SNM. If there was serious and unbearable oppression specifically targeting Isaaqs that came before 1981 show me sxb, i'm willing to listen and change my opinion on this.

As for our lack of devleopment, then that was Siyaads policy for the whole country. He focused developments and government services in Mogadishu. His own clan province of Gedo was almost totally neglected by him, so it wasn't an anti-isaaq policy.

It's funny how you're blaming Isaaqs for bringing division when it was Barre that pitted clans against each other to stay in power. It's really his fault that it backfired on him and took down the whole country with it.

 

[jugjugwacwac]

This was Hargeisa under Barre's Regime...

And this was Mogadishu...

So much for Somalinimo.

Thats a cheap cop-out. No one is denying he savagely bombed hargeisa. I'm asking two questions: 1. Were we justified in forming the SNM in 1981? If so show me clear cut reasons that forced our hands into rebellion. 2. Even if we were justified, were we successful in replacing the kacaan with something better for our people?

My opinion on the first question is not very strong and im willing to be persuaded. Maybe we were justified in forming the SNM. But as for the second question there's no doubt in my mind that Somalilanders and all Somalis are worse off now after these rebels took power than they were under the kacaan.

 

[jugjugwacwac]

It's funny how you're blaming Isaaqs for bringing division when it was Barre that pitted clans against each other to stay in power. It's really his fault that it backfired on him and took down the whole country with it.

That's empty rhetoric. Show me examples, places, names, dates. Show me proof, that's all i want. I challenge my own views like this, that's why im a free thinker. Challenge urself. Be open to all possibilities. Maybe uve been fed untruths or stretched truths. Step outside of urself, ur ego and ur identity and look at everything with a cold unbiased gaze.

 

[merka]

Thats a cheap cop-out. No one is denying he savagely bombed hargeisa. I'm making two claims. 1. Were we justified in forming the SNM in 1981? If so show me clear cut reasons that forced our hands into rebellion. 2. Even if we were justified, were we successful in replacing the kacaan with something better for our people?

My opinion on the first question is not very strong and im willing to be persuaded. Maybe we were justified in forming the SNM. But as for the second question there's no doubt in my mind that Somalilanders and all Somalis are worse of now after these rebels took power than they were under the kacaan.

This was before the bombings lol. It just goes to show you how severely neglected the region was under his rule.