State funeral of the 5th President of Somalia, His Excellency Maxamed Faarax Ceydiid

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

Abdullahi Yusuf was a militia leader, he started a dowlad. SNM were militia and they started a dowlad.

The failure of USC changed the study of International Relations. Today, when major powers discuss regime change, they always consult the fall of Barre as the prime example as what not to do.

Before 1991, the US would usually fund a militia group to overthrow a government, sometimes violently, without it descending to anarchy. Somalia was the first time a modern nation state descended into pure anarchy, because of said militia group.

Somalis can choose to admire Aideed, but his name is tarnished in the history books.

Neither of the examples you listed are comparable to Caydiid and the USC.
The SSDF made peace with Afweyne in the 70's and didn't take part in the heavy war against Afweyne. Furthermore they too were fighting in the years after Afweyne's removal and Puntland wasn't created until years after Caydiid's death.
The SNM were very different because they were essentially led by a committee of elders and therefore it was much easier to organise the peace conferences that led to the formation of Somaliland. They already had a peacemaking mechanism built into their structure.

In the years following Afweyne's demise, none of the Southern militia's involved in the war were truly interested in making peace, including the USC, SPM, SNF, SDM etc. They were all hellbent on gaining power, destroying their enemy and getting revenge. How was Caydiid or any one of the leaders of those militia's expected to get all the others to agree to form a government?

 

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

TLDR: Barre destroyed Burco and Hargeisa, Aideed destroyed every city and our society. Had Aideed set up a government, Barre would have been captured and put to trail. All that needed to be done is pay reparations to the North for what happened in 1988.

You are unbelievably naïve and ill informed. It is hard to argue with someone who thinks Afweyne with the aim of exterminating the isaaq people, and using the full might of the one of the most powerful armies in Africa at the time, did less damage than Caydiid with a rag tag militia made of up of the few weapons they were able to capture from Afweyne's army. You feel the impact of Caydiid's army only because it impacted your people and minimise the actual documented genocide that took place in the north

By becoming a savage in 1991, Aideed cost every victim of the Kacaan from ever getting justice from Barre. They allowed Barre to escape and take looted cash with him, while they pillaged Somalia.

What a load of nonesense. If Afweyne was alive, the Mareexaan would be protecting him till his last breath, just as the Majeerteen are protecting Morgan today.

I said Siyaad was only slightly better than Aideed. Only because he actually ran a country horribly for twenty years compared to Aideeds anarchy.

Also Siyaad destroyed Hargeisa and Burco. Aideed destroyed everywhere from Bosasso to Kismaayo, raping, pillaging and murdering innocents in between. There is no comparison.

Afweyne's army killed signifcantly more, tortured and raped more, bombed entire towns and villages to oblivion and used hired gaalo to bomb refugees in the countryside as they fled the cities. There is no comparison to anybody who doesn't share a lineage with Afweyne: he is by far the worst piece of human garbage to have set foot on Somali soil. You just don't see it, because Afweyne is your clansmen.

No, I have actually studied Somali history, meaning I have analysed comparative narratives of pre-colonial, colonial, Kacaanist and USC-Somalia. The latter period was the worst by a country mile.

I call B.S. I doubt you have read a single iota of what happened in the north. No-one who did would minimise it like you do. And, no shit the post war period is the worst part in Somali history, who here is disputing that? The issue is you blame Caydiid for it because he impacted your people. No person with any objective sense would come that conclusion. The reality is that the origin of the situation in Somalia today is closer to your home than it is Caydiids.

You completely misunderstood what I said and wrote an emotional response. Allow me to dumb it down for you.

I said all that needed to do in January 1991 was fix the North, with aid packages. With Siyaad not in power, he could have easily been put to trial alongside his associates and victims could have received justice.

I didn't mention the last part because that is what normally happens when a dictator is removed from power effectively.

You are an unbelievable simpleton if you think you can fix what your uncle Afweyne did in the north "with aid packages". How do you fix the massacre of tens of thousands, the complete destruction of entire cities, the brutalization of most of the survivors "with aid packages"? Good god that's moronic.

Also, as I said earlier, if Afweyne was alive, your people would be protecting him today. They have done so with every single other war criminal. When they are put on trial in the west, your people protest those trials, when they die, you're people insist on giving them state funerals. Best example is the fact that the architect of the genocide against the Isaaq, Morgan, is living the high live being protected by his kin in Puntland.

 

[Periplus]

You are unbelievably naïve and ill informed. It is hard to argue with someone who thinks Afweyne with the aim of exterminating the isaaq people, and using the full might of the one of the most powerful armies in Africa at the time, did less damage than Caydiid with a rag tag militia made of up of the few weapons they were able to capture from Afweyne's army. You feel the impact of Caydiid's army only because it impacted your people and minimise the actual documented genocide that took place in the north



What a load of nonesense. If Afweyne was alive, the Mareexaan would be protecting him till his last breath, just as the Majeerteen are protecting Morgan today.



Afweyne's army killed signifcantly more, tortured and raped more, bombed entire towns and villages to oblivion and used hired gaalo to bomb refugees in the countryside as they fled the cities. There is no comparison to anybody who doesn't share a lineage with Afweyne: he is by far the worst piece of human garbage to have set foot on Somali soil. You just don't see it, because Afweyne is your clansmen.




I call B.S. I doubt you have read a single iota of what happened in the north. No-one who did would minimise it like you do. And, no shit the post war period is the worst part in Somali history, who here is disputing that? The issue is you blame Caydiid for it because he impacted your people. No person with any objective sense would come that conclusion. The reality is that the origin of the situation in Somalia today is closer to your home than it is Caydiids.



You are an unbelievable simpleton if you think you can fix what your uncle Afweyne did in the north "with aid packages". How do you fix the massacre of tens of thousands, the complete destruction of entire cities, the brutalization of most of the survivors "with aid packages"? Good god that's moronic.

Also, as I said earlier, if Afweyne was alive, your people would be protecting him today. They have done so with every single other war criminal. When they are put on trial in the west, your people protest those trials, when they die, you're people insist on giving them state funerals. Best example is the fact that the architect of the genocide against the Isaaq, Morgan, is living the high live being protected by his kin in Puntland.

1. I am not Mareexan, just because people despise Aideed does not mean they are Mareexan.

2. Aideed caused the anarchy today, so his death toll includes every dead body from 1991 onwards. That is significantly more than Barre.

3. Aideed tried to wipe out the Majeerteen, reer xamar, reer barawe and other clans. This is documented very clearly by UN rapporteurs.

4. If Aideed set up a government, one would not be able to shelter anyone. The only reason PL is able to shelter Morgan is because the FGS is a weak institution. Had Somalia been a stable government after Aideed took over, he would have been able to capture Barre and his associates.

You do not only fix the systemic massacre of thousands on aid packages alone but justice. This allows communities to rebuild, the perpetrators to be jailed and victims to advise the government on what to do next.

Because of Aideed, Morgan is allowed to be sheltered by PL and Barre was allowed to escape.

You complain about "aid packages", what do the North have now?

No aid for the massacre of 1988. No justice for the victims. No reparations. Nothing.

Aideed caused that, its called a knock-on effect.

 

[Periplus]

Neither of the examples you listed are comparable to Caydiid and the USC.
The SSDF made peace with Afweyne in the 70's and didn't take part in the heavy war against Afweyne. Furthermore they too were fighting in the years after Afweyne's removal and Puntland wasn't created until years after Caydiid's death.

Puntland was formed exactly two years after Aideed's death.

The SNM were very different because they were essentially led by a committee of elders and therefore it was much easier to organise the peace conferences that led to the formation of Somaliland. They already had a peacemaking mechanism built into their structure.

Why did Aideed not do this?

Why did he not have a peacemaking mechanism?

Surely not having a plan to create peace will cause the opposite of peace? Anarchy, perhaps.

In the years following Afweyne's demise, none of the Southern militia's involved in the war were truly interested in making peace, including the USC, SPM, SNF, SDM etc. They were all hellbent on gaining power, destroying their enemy and getting revenge. How was Caydiid or any one of the leaders of those militia's expected to get all the others to agree to form a government?

Maybe he should have taken a leaf out of the SNM book. Or maybe he should have planned for what will happen after Afweyn left.

You are seriously telling me that Aideed did not plan past Barre leaving. He did not plan for a power vacuum left by a leader who severely centralised power.

You have basically proven he was class-A idiot.

 

[reer]

The SNM were very different because they were essentially led by a committee of elders and therefore it was much easier to organise the peace conferences that led to the formation of Somaliland.

isaaqs karbashed each other in the qamadi wars. we dont live under rocks.

 

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

2. Aideed caused the anarchy today, so his death toll includes every dead body from 1991 onwards. That is significantly more than Barre.

This is when I stop arguing with stupid.

 

[Periplus]

This is when I stop arguing with stupid.

In Islam, you are responsible for any knock on sins. If you build a bar, you are responsible for everyone who ever drank there.

If you started a war, you are responsible for anyone who has died in said war.

 

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

isaaqs karbashed each other in the qamadi wars. we dont live under rocks.

The peace conferences organised by the SNM, with all clans living in Somaliland represented, started in January 1991, as soon as they had annihilated Afweyne's army.

The inter clan warfare that happened after that, between all clans including within Dhulbahante, Isaaq etc happened over territorial disputes, something that Somalis have been doing since time immemorial.

 

[reer]

The peace conferences organised by the SNM, with all clans living in Somaliland represented, started in January 1991, as soon as they had annihilated Afweyne's army.

The inter clan warfare that happened after that, between all clans including within Dhulbahante, Isaaq etc happened over territorial disputes, something that Somalis have been doing since time immemorial.

qamadi wars were infamous not water disputes. usc removed siad barre otherwise gen abdiaziz ali barre would have stayed in waqooyi.

 

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

qamadi wars were infamous not water disputes. usc removed siad barre otherwise gen abdiaziz ali barre would have stayed in waqooyi.

What on earth are you talking about?

The isaaq wars were all about territory. The first one was between the Habar Jeclo and Habar Yonis about Burco. Then it was between Ciise Muuse and Habar Yonis about control of Berbera.
The final one was started as the Ciidagale wanted to keep Hargeisa airport under their control.

They were all about territory.

 

[BigShaq]

This is when I stop arguing with stupid.

The guy is insane, and thinks Caydiid marched throughout the country destroying everything. I can accept where he went wrong, particularly the failure to come to terms with Ali Mahdi. However, I implore that guy to watch this interview

Look at 13:20

"We're are expecting to establish a govt of national unity"

"We will have a transitional govt, and after that have the duty to establish a federal system"

"At the end of that transitional period, we will have national elections"

"I am in favour to disarm[the people], but this can only be done by the new govt"

Does this sound like a wanton criminal driven by the sole aim of exterminating daroods? These guys have painted a very sinister, and I'd argue dishonest, picture of the man. Did I agree with the actions he ultimately took? Nope, not at all.

The failure to reconcile with Ali Mahdi was disastrous, and the usc troops committed atrocities. Were such atrocities committed by trigger happy militia high on khat, or sanctioned by aidiid? I do not know. However, I have seen nothing of aidiid which suggests that he wanted to exterminate daroods, I see the opposite. His vision of a transitional and federal system, and to a degree the transitional system and federal system we had, are strikingly similar. Ultimately, he failed in this endeavor. Nuance is needed here, I'd argue.

 

[Woke1.4rm.Shibis]

Who gave you PTSD? I'm not even from the anywhere near the South. Wallahi people like you are the living "unuga leh" meme, can't even want what's good for Mogadishu without one of you lot chimping out. I don't want to take your city, I just want it to function like normal city

I come from the North walaal I have toilets that are situated in areas that don't blow up. I wish the same for the biggest city in Somalia simply because it's my country.

From the north ehh ?
Kkkk
Insulting my city and my people making bomb "blow up" jokes wont get you ictraaf walaal .

Inshallah once we get the b00n out office it will be back to bussines , there are many developments coming , maybe it wont take us long to become a developed city like your capital In the north

 

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

The failure to reconcile with Ali Mahdi was disastrous, and the usc troops committed atrocities. Were such atrocities committed by trigger happy militia high on khat, or sanctioned by aidiid? I do not know. However, I have seen nothing of aidiid which suggests that he wanted to exterminate daroods, I see the opposite. His vision of a transitional and federal system, and to a degree the transitional system and federal system we had, are strikingly similar. Ultimately, he failed in this endeavor. Nuance is needed here, I'd argue.

This is what I call a very reasoned and balanced argument. The nuance you speak of and speak with, is not the language of the Afweyne apologists I am afraid.

Caydiid was no angel and his troops committed atrocities. However, his intentions were clearly to drive out the Afweyne regime and then build a government that worked for everyone. The failure to do that was both his and all the other militia leaders in the south.

 

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

From the north ehh ?
Kkkk
Insulting my city and my people making bomb "blow up" jokes wont get you ictraaf walaal .

Inshallah once we get the b00n out office it will be back to bussines , there are many developments coming , maybe it wont take us long to become a developed city like your capital In the north

I suspect he is a Puntite and not a Somalilander. They often forget that when they say they are from the North, people will assume that they are from Somaliland. Although, technically and geographically, they are in the north, they are not who Somalis generally refer to as Reer Waqooyi.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

1st president - aden adde
2nd president - abdirashid ali sharmarke
3rd president - mohamed siad barre
4th president - meles zenawi

thats it.

Current President - Abiy Ahmed

 

[Based]

Personally, I think the coup in 1969 destined us for war but USC gave us absolute anarchy.

Aideed is single-handedly the worst leader in Somali history. I put Siyaad slightly above because he knew how to run a country, albeit horribly but better than the chaos of the 1990's.

Aideed was responsible for numerous massacres, desecrations of mosques, looting of public infrastructure etc. During the Kacaan, we had a public schooling system, universities (plus the ability to study in the West), a functioning government and other useful services.

As much as I despite Siyaad, at least Somalia was in good condition when he left. All it needed was for a government to be formed and some aid packages to rebuild Hargeisa. But Aideed wanted to live a Mad Max fantasy and scorched Mogadishu.

Somalia wasn't in good condition when Siyaad was sent running off lol. Maybe the church and the arch in xamar was in good shape because that's all they show you in "Somalia before civil war" videos we are better now than we were in 1990

 

[Woke1.4rm.Shibis]

I suspect he is a Puntite and not a Somalilander.

The cuqdad is strong with him .

 

[Woke1.4rm.Shibis]

@Crowe86 maybe if we feed our buntland brother @Yukon_Niner some cambuulo he would lose that cuqdad

 

[Periplus]

Somalia wasn't in good condition when Siyaad was sent running off lol. Maybe the church and the arch in xamar was in good shape because that's all they show you in "Somalia before civil war" videos we are better now than we were in 1990

I do not disagree with that. As I said numerous times, Siyaad ran Somalia horribly but that was better than anarchy. There were schools, universities, public services and basic governance.

When Aideed took over, most skilled people were still in the country, no massive structural damage happened to the cities except for Hargeisa and Burco and most major powers decided to keep their hands off.

That situtation was ripe for a nation-building conference with all qabiils to set up a transitional government until we were in a position to have elections. Instead we had a decade of anarchy before we even had a transitional government on paper.

 

[Gantaal97]

I do not disagree with that. As I said numerous times, Siyaad ran Somalia horribly but that was better than anarchy. There were schools, universities, public services and basic governance.

When Aideed took over, most skilled people were still in the country, no massive structural damage happened to the cities except for Hargeisa and Burco and most major powers decided to keep their hands off.

That situtation was ripe for a nation-building conference with all qabiils to set up a transitional government until we were in a position to have elections. Instead we had a decade of anarchy before we even had a transitional government on paper.

We have more schools and universities than before where there was only one university in the country for the last 30 years since somali state was established