T-M184 Discussion

[Prince Abubu]

I don’t think T-Y44591 is Arabian at all.

It so far has a demographic expansion exactly like R-Y8452 - a non-Afroasiatic branch (R-Y7771) and a Semitic branch, with respective Jewish specific (R-FGC20980) and Arab subclades.

The Somali Y44591 ancestor is already bound to head to a period o civilizations. It better matches matches the Ethiosemitic entrance into Northeast Africa. It also post dates the camel in the Horn of Africa. But if Habeshas don’t carry it - and it’s near non-existence especially outside Arabia, I doubt it has anything to do with Ethiosemites. I am very certain if we have a Rendille T-M70 year, they will increase the mrca by a couple hundred years, and up to several thousand.

It is very useless to use Arab matches as evidence of a non-Cushitic origin - every Somali subclade will have Arabs, like the Hawiye V32 guys are sharing with an Arab tribe from Yemen (Hubaysh). Clearly however the subclade is Somali.

If the ydna is

1) too localized

2) lacks a wide ethnic distribution and regional character

It can be ruled out as having a Eurasian origin.

If it is indeed Semitic, with its age we would expected for the largest demographic testers on ftdna (Jews and peninsular Arabs) to have shown up. Arabs are enriched for all ydna in Africa, even super rare African ydna like E-V16 and some unknown Central African HG ydna. If it is truly not from Africa - you need a wide ethnic distribution otherwise. And Y44591 does not have that - Z19971 does.

Statistically it is very unlikely Y44591 to be from Eurasia as it stands. Especially without the T-L208 Southeast Africans with Cushitic ancestry like the Karamoja Nilote and Iraqws and Bantus untested. The Arsi Oromo and other Ethiopian T-M70 heavily belong to young Semitic and West Asian subclades - not shocking because Arsi Oromos have a lot of J-P58 and even J2-M172, and very little T-M70. The Saho subclade is hard to make sense of, but does nothing to really dismiss the case at hand. Sahos and Afars have a lot of Ethiosemitic ancestry and have many clans with various P56 and P58 subclades.

Somali J guys also belong to a major Khawlan branch that they share with the other sibling clade housing a Ma’rib Khawlan tribe. The Somali-Khawlan mrca is way too young to be from classical pre-Arab South Arabia, it almost certainly comes from some Khawlan Arab that came to the Horn recently.

On Sahra and Afars - Afars from within the Afar region less than 100 miles from Djibouti are around 25% J-M304, and they are very similar to Amharas and Habeshas ydna-wise, the major difference is really just founder-effected for specific E-V6 and E-V22 and because of this have less E-M34 and E-V42. These Afars lack much T (around 5%) and have much more A3b2 (more than 10%) - so Afars in Djibouti must have gotten a lot of their T from Somalis, which is why they are so close.

Arab Y17859 also come from a diversity of clans - some are Hubaysh, others have a surname Badawi (Bedouin), an unidentified guy from Tripolitania, and Yemenis. So some few Arab guys from Bani Malik doesn’t mean anything - otherwise we have an easier case for E-Y17859 being Arabian.

The Garhajis T-FGC92488 subclade and the Dir T-BY181210* are past 1600 and now have an mrca of 1900 years. I know there is a Habr Gidir T-L208 aside from the Djibouti Hawiye T-L208, because of this I think T-BY18210 Somali ancestor will go further back and soon E-Y17859 and T-BY181210 will have similar mrca - since they already have identical similar formation dates.

How do you explain the complete absence of T-Y16897 in Africans, except Somalis then? While I agree with you that we should be skeptical until further information comes out, aren't you making the same mistake by assuming that if we test the Rendille and Southern Cushites that they test positive for T-Y44591?

If T-Y16897 has a TMRCA of 6900 bp (4000-5000BCE), then that would still mean some Eurasian HGs or pastoralists came fairly recently into the Somali Genepool.

 

[Apollo]

Arab Y17859 also come from a diversity of clans - some are Hubaysh, others have a surname Badawi (Bedouin), an unidentified guy from Tripolitania, and Yemenis. So some few Arab guys from Bani Malik doesn’t mean anything - otherwise we have an easier case for E-Y17859 being Arabian.

I think that Libyan with E-BY8081 descends from a Benadiri who moved to Libya or North Africa. Apparantly the E-BY8081 Somali guy is a Benadiri or a ''Somali Arab'' and his TMRCA with the Libyan is only 500 years (probably same tribe or they may know each other). E-Y18637 (which E-BY8081 belongs to) looks to be South Somali specific.

 

[Asrafael]

How do you explain the complete absence of T-Y16897 in Africans, except Somalis then? While I agree with you that we should be skeptical until further information comes out, aren't you making the same mistake by assuming that if we test the Rendille and Southern Cushites that they test positive for T-Y44591?

If T-Y16897 has a TMRCA of 6900 bp (4000-5000BCE), then that would still mean some Eurasian HGs or pastoralists came fairly recently into the Somali Genepool.

6900 would be very close to when the early Cushitic group lived in the eastern Sahara. I think this Y16897 and V88 brought a new form of cattle and form of pastoralist into Northeast Africa and admixed into the early Egyptian-Chadian and Cushitic people in the eastern Sahara.

The complete absence really only means we haven’t tested any non-Semitic admixed Cushitic group at a higher level. We don’t even know which branch of T-L208 the Habr Gidir belong to, same for all those L208 and M70 men recorded in the Masai, Turkana, Iraqw, and various Bantus.

Remember so far alot of the T we find in the Horn is clearly not Cushitic, like the Arsi. Some Habesha T carriers also carry the same branch as the Saho. The T samples we have clarified so far come from groups that have a lot of non-Cushitic ydna and very low amounts of T in general. And the Saho Y15711 share the subclass with a lot of Arabs, more so than Y44591.

The Asaworta are clan alone also have a lot of non-Cushitic ydna, such as several J-P58 and R1b. It isn’t a very large clan that assimilated all sorts of elements, like the Afar, but on a smaller scale. All the northern Cushitic groups have a bee heterogenous makeup and interacted heavily with both Habeshas and Sudanese Arabs.

I think Y44591 arrived with mtdna like HV1b1 and HV1a3, which arrived in Africa during a similar time interval (8-6kya). HV1 and T-M70 both have a northern West Asian - south Caucusus distribution, not a Arabian or Levantine one, and There presence in Arabia is most likely due to gene flow from the greater Northeast Africa.

 

[Asrafael]

I think that Libyan with E-BY8081 descends from a Benadiri who moved to Libya or North Africa. Apparantly the E-BY8081 Somali guy is a Benadiri or a ''Somali Arab'' and his TMRCA with the Libyan is only 500 years (probably same tribe or they may know each other). E-Y18637 (which E-BY8081 belongs to) looks to be South Somali specific.

Funny - I’ve seen the reverse. Amazigh ydna in branch of the Sheikhaale.

What’s the clan of the Benadiri guy?

 

[EDsomali]

The T in Rendile and South Cushities comes from a Southern Nilotic migration from Sudan 2000 years ago.

T in Somalis and Rendile are unrelated.

 

[Prince Abubu]

The T in Rendile and South Cushities comes from a Southern Nilotic migration from Sudan 2000 years ago.

T in Somalis and Rendile are unrelated.

The T-carrier ancestors in Southern Cushites were from Nilotes? Hmmm.

So there are three separate T-carrier populations in the Horn?

1) T-Y44591 in Somalis

2) T-Y15711 in Eritrea Sudan and Ethiopian Cushites

3) Whatever the South Cushitic speakers and Rendille T-carriers have.

 

[Apollo]

T in Somalis and Rendile are unrelated.

I doubt that. We need more data for it, especially full Y ones. I think they will have the Somali related one.

Funny - I’ve seen the reverse. Amazigh ydna in branch of the Sheikhaale.

What’s the clan of the Benadiri guy?

I don't know much about that tester besides that he is a Benadiri. I don't think he considers himself Hawiye or belonging to the big clans.

They don’t even show any significant Nilotic ancestry.

What they do show though is Southwest Ethiopian or Omotic type of admixture. They also got E-M329 (previously known as E-P2*) and slightly more Mota affinity than other Somalis.

 

[Asrafael]

The T in Rendile and South Cushities comes from a Southern Nilotic migration from Sudan 2000 years ago.

T in Somalis and Rendile are unrelated.

Ridiculous. Rendilles did not assimilate Nilotic peoples and are very exclusive. They don’t even show any significant Nilotic ancestry.

Nilotes get all their T from Cushitic groups. No way around this.

Dinkas, Nuers, and South Sudanese Nilotes don’t have T. Only Nilotes that do have a history of assimilating Cushitic groups.

This is really off the charts. How is T-M70 in Southeast Africa Nilotic?

So T-M70 in Somalis is somehow very exclusive and a few Arabs and 1 clan is all we need?

Then how do you explain away Boni, Garre, Gabra T-M70? And why does T-M70 peak in Cushitic and groups with higher Cushitic with no Nilotic ancestry? These are our closest ethnic-linguistic relatives, and sorry but I put much more weight in the uniform distribution of T-M70 in Sam groups then unicorn Arab samples with rainbow pedigrees.

 

[EDsomali]

Ridiculous. Rendilles did not assimilate Nilotic peoples and are very exclusive. They don’t even show any significant Nilotic ancestry.

Nilotes get all their T from Cushitic groups. No way around this.

Dinkas, Nuers, and South Sudanese Nilotes don’t have T. Only Nilotes that do have a history of assimilating Cushitic groups.

This is really off the charts. How is T-M70 in Southeast Africa Nilotic?

So T-M70 in Somalis is somehow very exclusive and a few Arabs and 1 clan is all we need?

Then how do you explain away Boni, Garre, Gabra T-M70? And why does T-M70 peak in Cushitic and groups with higher Cushitic with no Nilotic ancestry? These are our closest ethnic-linguistic relatives, and sorry but I put much more weight in the uniform distribution of T-M70 in Sam groups then unicorn Arab samples with rainbow pedigrees.

They do carry extra Nilotic ancestry alongside some Anatolian N ancestry that comes from a North Africa.

T is not a Cushitic haplogroup, it was introduced by migrations.

The T in Somalis is restricted to northern Somalis and a single subclade with a TMRCA about the time Somalis reached Northern Somalia.

 

[Asrafael]

They do carry extra Nilotic ancestry alongside some Anatolian N ancestry that comes from a North Africa.

T is not a Cushitic haplogroup, it was introduced by migrations.

The T in Somalis is restricted to northern Somalis and a single subclade with a TMRCA about the time Somalis reached Northern Somalia.

There is no proof of this. Unstable models are never going to pin down the non-Iran Chl ancestry in Africans. It is so unstable me and my siblings will show very different makeups. Somalis who cluster alike will show very different sources and proportions in these models. They are absolutely useless in this. You can model any fantasy - it does not make it real.

Which is why you need to temper it with real world situations. If not - we would’ve modeling Indo-Europeans as half Iranian farmer - which sounds a lot more reasonable than what your suggesting.

If any Eurasian ancestry was received by early Nilotes not of Cushitic and early Egyptian and Chadic origin - it is completely absent in their uniparentals. This is very suspicious. Their Eurasian mtdna is has nothing extra than what Somalis have - the usual M1 and U6.

I also do not think Somalis have a recent southern origin. We have an ancient origin in the north with a very prehistoric origin in the south. More like Proto-Somalis came from NFD-Juba-Mandera area to the north than late Somalis migrating from the south. Somalis are an late and intrusive element there, and all the clans have a north to south not south to north migration origin. We don’t have Tunni and Garre loanwords and influence - but we have Ge’ez and South Arabian influences. The entire northern Somali coastline was inhabited almost 2000 years ago - I seriously doubt those people were somehow not Somali or ancestral Somalis. The archeological and linguistic evidence to support such disruption as population displacement and a pre-Somali population is not there. And our Afar-Sahro linguistic influence does not fulfill any such criteria.

Also - stop with this retarded north Somali vs south Somali talk. There are T-M70 dominant clans in the south and E-V32 dominant clans in the north. And those T-M70 clans like the Isaaq and Dir have northeastern origins, not northwestern ones. Sanaag is where the diversity of Dir exists, where Isse was from. And those southern Somalia have recent origins from the north. All mainstream Somali clans are northerners in a genetic and ethnic sense. North Somalia have both predominely T-M70 and E-V32 clans, and very recent founder effects like Garhajis T-M70 (750 years ago) and Isse (roughly 700 years) do not your case. These bottlenecks for T-M70 also occurred in other clans, some which are within the Darood and Hamite umbrellas, and some which will be of a distant relation to the Garhajis-Dir subclade.

There are going to be clans that are T-M70 majority that will be found in the Rendille and Garre. I have confirmed a Habr Gidir T-L208 sample, and I have heard of Abgaal ones. I expect these guys like the Djibouti sample to have a more basal subclade like the Djibouti paper lone Hawiye.

There is a ydna paper focused on North Kenyan pastoralist groups - including Turkanas, Rendilles, and Boranas. It will focus on the various clans and their ydna - so expect to see some T-M70 clans there. Hopefully we can see if they are Y44591 or Y16897 and upload them to yfull.

I will reiterate - R1b-V88 and T-M70 have the same history in Africa. T-Y44591 and R-Y8452 have similar ages and bifurcation between a Semitic subclade with Arabs and Jews, and non-Semitic but Cushitic or Chadic African subclade (with Arabian samples). So this is not a unique conundrum. Chadics have a similar thing going on for them as well.

A question - E-V32 and T-M70 have a close ancestral cohabitation and ancestral association in another part of the world - hundreds of miles away from the Horn of Africa. I want you to guess, where?

 

[Asrafael]

I doubt that. We need more data for it, especially full Y ones. I think they will have the Somali related one.



I don't know much about that tester besides that he is a Benadiri. I don't think he considers himself Hawiye or belonging to the big clans.



What they do show though is Southwest Ethiopian or Omotic type of admixture. They also got E-M329 (previously known as E-P2*) and slightly more Mota affinity than other Somalis.

@Apollo, it’s actually South Cushitic E-M293 that Rendilles have. Around 25%. I haven’t seen any E-M329 in them. Their E-P2* I think was resolved as being E-V1515, like a lot of the Ethiopian samples.

 

[EDsomali]

There is no proof of this. Unstable models are never going to pin down the non-Iran Chl ancestry in Africans. It is so unstable me and my siblings will show very different makeups. Somalis who cluster alike will show very different sources and proportions in these models. They are absolutely useless in this. You can model any fantasy - it does not make it real.

Which is why you need to temper it with real world situations. If not - we would’ve modeling Indo-Europeans as half Iranian farmer - which sounds a lot more reasonable than what your suggesting.

If any Eurasian ancestry was received by early Nilotes not of Cushitic and early Egyptian and Chadic origin - it is completely absent in their uniparentals. This is very suspicious. Their Eurasian mtdna is has nothing extra than what Somalis have - the usual M1 and U6.

I also do not think Somalis have a recent southern origin. We have an ancient origin in the north with a very prehistoric origin in the south. More like Proto-Somalis came from NFD-Juba-Mandera area to the north than late Somalis migrating from the south. Somalis are an late and intrusive element there, and all the clans have a north to south not south to north migration origin. We don’t have Tunni and Garre loanwords and influence - but we have Ge’ez and South Arabian influences. The entire northern Somali coastline was inhabited almost 2000 years ago - I seriously doubt those people were somehow not Somali or ancestral Somalis. The archeological and linguistic evidence to support such disruption as population displacement and a pre-Somali population is not there. And our Afar-Sahro linguistic influence does not fulfill any such criteria.

Also - stop with this retarded north Somali vs south Somali talk. There are T-M70 dominant clans in the south and E-V32 dominant clans in the north. And those T-M70 clans like the Isaaq and Dir have northeastern origins, not northwestern ones. Sanaag is where the diversity of Dir exists, where Isse was from. And those southern Somalia have recent origins from the north. All mainstream Somali clans are northerners in a genetic and ethnic sense. North Somalia have both predominely T-M70 and E-V32 clans, and very recent founder effects like Garhajis T-M70 (750 years ago) and Isse (roughly 700 years) do not your case. These bottlenecks for T-M70 also occurred in other clans, some which are within the Darood and Hamite umbrellas, and some which will be of a distant relation to the Garhajis-Dir subclade.

There are going to be clans that are T-M70 majority that will be found in the Rendille and Garre. I have confirmed a Habr Gidir T-L208 sample, and I have heard of Abgaal ones. I expect these guys like the Djibouti sample to have a more basal subclade like the Djibouti paper lone Hawiye.

There is a ydna paper focused on North Kenyan pastoralist groups - including Turkanas, Rendilles, and Boranas. It will focus on the various clans and their ydna - so expect to see some T-M70 clans there. Hopefully we can see if they are Y44591 or Y16897 and upload them to yfull.

I will reiterate - R1b-V88 and T-M70 have the same history in Africa. T-Y44591 and R-Y8452 have similar ages and bifurcation between a Semitic subclade with Arabs and Jews, and non-Semitic but Cushitic or Chadic African subclade (with Arabian samples). So this is not a unique conundrum. Chadics have a similar thing going on for them as well.

A question - E-V32 and T-M70 have a close ancestral cohabitation and ancestral association in another part of the world - hundreds of miles away from the Horn of Africa. I want you to guess, where?

The admixture is real.

There was a Nilotic migration 2000 years ago, the south cushitic paper confirmed this.

T is not a cushitic haplogroup, none of the Ken_Pastoralist carried it despite the highest frequencies being with them today.

T in Somalis was introduced from Arabia, it's not really debatable.

 

[Prince Abubu]

The admixture is real.

There was a Nilotic migration 2000 years ago, the south cushitic paper confirmed this.

T is not a cushitic haplogroup, none of the Ken_Pastoralist carried it despite the highest frequencies being with them today.

T in Somalis was introduced from Arabia, it's not really debatable.

@Asrafael

What would take to have a definitive answer on this?

 

[Arabsiyawi]

People claiming YDNA T-Y45591 is not localised are delusional. We know for sure that the overwhelming majority of YDNA T in Somalis is almost entirely restricted to the North-West of Somalia, and is present in the South and East through Dir migration. (Surre for exemple). There are probably T Somalis that are not Dir or Isaaq or from Northwestern Somalia, but I’m 100% convinced that it is nothing really meaningful statistically.

I’d also like to remind you guys that the TMRCA of the Somali T (n=21) has already been calculated in a study that didn’t take into account tribes. The calculated TMRCA closely matches the YFull one, suggesting it would probably never get any older with upcoming Somalis on YFull.


(https://www.nature.com/articles/5201390#Tab4)

« In Somalis, the TMRCA was estimated to be 4000–5000 years for the haplogroup E3b1 cluster γ and 2100–2200 years for the haplogroup K2 assuming a generation time of 25 years.»


I could see how we might think Rendille would also belong to our clade, but given the time we split from them I believe it is not meaningful either to prove a « Cushitic » origin of the haplotype.
Although I don’t necessarily think they will because of how localised T-Y45591 is. Probably spread North to South, while Somalis as a whole might’ve originated further south before going North and leaving Rendilles behind lol.

 

[Apollo]

@Apollo, it’s actually South Cushitic E-M293 that Rendilles have. Around 25%. I haven’t seen any E-M329 in them. Their E-P2* I think was resolved as being E-V1515, like a lot of the Ethiopian samples.

On the phone right now so I can't look up the study, but I saw in one that they had E-P2* somewhere in the low double digits. E-P2* in Ethiopians and Kenyans is almost always the Omotic/Paleo-Ethiopian lineage E-M329. I think that study did test for E-M215, so their E-P2* should be the aforementioned clade.

 

[Timo Jareer and proud]

The localized nature in Eurasia of Y44591 makes this very unlikely if we are being honest. It doesn’t even look Semitic.

It has a distribution similar to E-Y17859 in Eurasia - very patchy localized founder effects throughout Arabia but not found in other Semitic groups and most importantly Jews.

The day I see an Iranian Jewish, Assyrian, and Italian T-Y44591 is when a Eurasian origin becomes very likely - and despite over testing, we don’t have any any of these samples despite very large testing in all concerned groups.

Again - statistically a Eurasian origin is very unlikely. Where are all these Y44591 men hiding in Eurasia if it is truly Eurasian?

Yibir = Hebrew is most likely a recently concocted myth. Yibir themselves do not claim a Hebrew origin - they claim Arab origins. Just ask them. The Jewish thing is not accepted by them and they usually see it as a slur. I only saw them claim it when they want to benefit from claiming Jewish, like some Eelay who some Somalis say have a Hebrew origin. Somalis use Jewish origin as a slur against outcaste groups which they never originally claimed and is probably an Islamic era phenomenon.

Which is why you should stop with all the pseudo-history and naive trust of Somali folklore. Literally everything we claimed about our origins and the origins of the clans has been destroyed by genetics.

I do not think the Yibir are any different. If they did have Jewish or foreign origins, we would probably have had some weird ydna that seeps into regular Somali clans that we would have noticed. We should get some tested just to see.

Al Faraj subdivision of the Banu Malik Arab clan has been found to test positive for T-Y44591. Same for a Banu Malik man in Makkah.


And I know two Yibir men who claim that the Hebrew decent myth is what their clan legitimately believes.

 

[Arabsiyawi]

Al Faraj subdivision of the Banu Malik Arab clan has been found to test positive for T-Y44591. Same for a Banu Malik man in Makkah.


And I know two Yibir men who claim that the Hebrew decent myth is what their clan legitimately believes.

where are the receipts sxb

 

[Prince Abubu]

There is a ydna paper focused on North Kenyan pastoralist groups - including Turkanas, Rendilles, and Boranas. It will focus on the various clans and their ydna - so expect to see some T-M70 clans there. Hopefully we can see if they are Y44591 or Y16897 and upload them to yfull.

When will the results be available?

I will reiterate - R1b-V88 and T-M70 have the same history in Africa. T-Y44591 and R-Y8452 have similar ages and bifurcation between a Semitic subclade with Arabs and Jews, and non-Semitic but Cushitic or Chadic African subclade (with Arabian samples). So this is not a unique conundrum. Chadics have a similar thing going on for them as well.

A question - E-V32 and T-M70 have a close ancestral cohabitation and ancestral association in another part of the world - hundreds of miles away from the Horn of Africa. I want you to guess, where?

I'm assuming North Africa/Egypt?

 

[Asrafael]

Al Faraj subdivision of the Banu Malik Arab clan has been found to test positive for T-Y44591. Same for a Banu Malik man in Makkah.


And I know two Yibir men who claim that the Hebrew decent myth is what their clan legitimately believes.

How do you to feel about saying that knowing that even the Rendille have Yibirs?

There are entire clans of Rendille and Gabra which are called Ibire, and they have the specialized function of being able to give blessings and curses - just like the Yibir.

Again - instead of blindly attacking my backed up ideas, confront the insanity of your theories.

Like I discussed in another thread - people (esp. Isaaqs, like folks here) use to claim that E-V32 had an entire Arabian branch which ended up being a Chadic/Central Cushitic branch, as I had alway believed.

And also - their is a guy from Somalia (unknown ethnicity) who is not Y45591 but Z19971, and under a huge Arab branch.

This is the only guy so far that has anything to do with a Eurasian Y16897 ancestor.

Also - like I stated months ago, Yemeni Y45591 is essentially non-existent. How retarded can your theories be.

Literally no evidence, if you don't want to be Somali then just dont claim it, it's so damn fucking simple. Just dont act like daddy Esteban is anything but a racist Iberian crackpot.

 

[Cuneo]

How do you to feel about saying that knowing that even the Rendille have Yibirs?

There are entire clans of Rendille and Gabra which are called Ibire, and they have the specialized function of being able to give blessings and curses - just like the Yibir.

Again - instead of blindly attacking my backed up ideas, confront the insanity of your theories.

Like I discussed in another thread - people (esp. Isaaqs, like folks here) use to claim that E-V32 had an entire Arabian branch which ended up being a Chadic/Central Cushitic branch, as I had alway believed.

And also - their is a guy from Somalia (unknown ethnicity) who is not Y45591 but Z19971, and under a huge Arab branch.

This is the only guy so far that has anything to do with a Eurasian Y16897 ancestor.

Also - like I stated months ago, Yemeni Y45591 is essentially non-existent. How retarded can your theories be.

Literally no evidence, if you don't want to be Somali then just dont claim it, it's so damn fucking simple. Just dont act like daddy Esteban is anything but a racist Iberian crackpot.

You’re driven by emotions and pseudo ethno-nationalism.

Wether Y45591 is South Arabian in origin or not doesn’t refute the fact that it was introduced to the Somali gene pool quite recently, approximately 2000 years ago.

What you’ve presented is your own theories and unlike Esteban you don’t have any credentials when it comes to genetics.

Just look at this sentence:

“This is the only guy so far that has anything to do with a Eurasian Y16897 ancestor.”

Truly a bizarre chain of thought!