The Origin of the Sudanese 'Africans'

[HiraanBorn]

They're not larping at all; they legitimately have significant Arab DNA on their paternal side.

Simply mind-boggling

 

[Nilus]

That Sub-Saharan phenotype is some strong stuff

It’s the dominant phenotype. Otherwise we would have looked like Natufians.

 

[Nilotic]

@HiraanBorn

There is no better summary of the impact of the Arab nomadic tribes than that given by the great historian Ibn Khaldun:


With the Nubians' conversion to Islam the payment of the jizya (capital tax) ceased. Then several clans of the Juhayna Arabs spread over their country and settled in it; they assumed power and filled the land with rapine and disorder. At first the kings of Nubia tried to repulse them by force but they failed in it; so they changed their tactics and tried to win them over by offering their daughters in marriage. Thus was their kingdom disintegrated, for it passed to the sons of the Juhayna from their Nubian mothers according to the non-Arab practice of inheritance by the sister and her sons. So their kingdom fell to pieces and their country was inherited by the nomad Arabs of the Juhayna."(The Cambridge History of Africa, Vol. 2: c. 500 B.C.-A.D. 1050 (Volume 2)

Due to Nubian customs of matrilineal succession, lands increasingly passed into Arab hands when Nubian women married Arab men who followed laws of patrilineal succession and inheritance. Despite the resistance of Nubians against this gradual dispossession of their lands, Arab concepts of ownership prevailed, and by the fourteenth century had replaced preexisting Nubian concepts of land ownership. (Muslim Societies in Africa: A Historical Anthropology)

 

[HiraanBorn]

@HiraanBorn

I think this quote is fitting:

"Woe to the conquered." - Brennus, Chief of the Gallic Senones who sacked Rome in 390 BC

 

[Burqad]

@HiraanBorn

Same reason the scots speak English and not gaelic.

 

[Nilotic]

I think this quote is fitting:

"Woe to the conquered." - Brennus, Chief of the Gallic Senones who sacked Rome in 390 BC

The Nubians weren't conquered; it was a gradual wave of Arab infiltration that was very difficult to stem.

You have to understand that the Arabs of that time were a significant military power and this is evinced by the fact that they swept through the Levant, Egypt, Persia and the Maghreb with relative ease, however, they couldn't directly conquer the Nubians, so they changed their strategy -- and their slow and methodical (Fabian-like approach) worked over a significant period of time.

 

[Nilotic]

military prowess brings clout. so at the time it was common sense to have political marriages. arabization of sudan wasnt through conquest it was gradual.

Political marriages do make sense, however, I do wish that the Nubians hadn't been infiltrated.

Nubians are known for being moral, honest and seem to be regarded as almost dovish by the Egyptians, so I think that the North-South wars wouldn't have happened if the Nubians weren't infiltrated. Arabs have an entirely different psychology.

 

[HiraanBorn]

The Nubians weren't conquered; it was a gradual wave of Arab infiltration that was very difficult to stem.

You have to understand that the Arabs of that time were a significant military power and this is evinced by the fact that they swept through the Levant, Egypt, Persia and the Maghreb with relative ease, however, they couldn't directly conquer the Nubians, so they changed their strategy -- and their slow and methodical (Fabian-like approach) worked over a significant period of time.

If you have to give your own noble daughters as prizes because you can't force the enemy out of your land then that's called submission AKA conquered sxb. Whether it's gradual or swift, indirect or direct is besides the point.

 

[Garaad diinle]

Arab presence in sudan is very ancient i remember reading a greek or a roman historian mention arab presence in the east coast of sudan. Arabization on the other hand is recent and happened gradually. There wasn't a plan to conquer sudan it simply happened naturally much like how nilotes expanded to kenya, uganda and tanzania. It's not only arabs that were found in sudan but also copts from egypt.

 

[JackieBurkhart]

Arab presence in sudan is very ancient i remember reading a greek or a roman historian mention arab presence in the east coast of sudan. Arabization on the other hand is recent and happened gradually. There wasn't a plan to conquer sudan it simply happened naturally much like how nilotes expanded to kenya, uganda and tanzania. It's not only arabs that were found in sudan but also copts from egypt.

I think we're talking about Arabs post-Islam, they did attempt to conquer out right but failed. So they did the next best thing, becoming part of the society/people.

 

[HiraanBorn]

@Nilotic I respect your people because they never gave up and fought for the freedom to have their own identity. It's a shame however that they can't separate Islam from being Arab. Islam if understood for what it truly is, is like a bright light that overwhelms every else.

Mankind are a fickle bunch. Sometimes I think we're no better than the animals you find in the forests.

 

[Garaad diinle]

I think we're talking about Arabs post-Islam, they did attempt to conquer but failed. So they did the next best thing, becoming part of the society/people.

While there might be some truth to it i remember egyptions trying to infiltrate norther sudan but the vast majority of these who claim arab origin claim the hjaz not egypt and even their arabic dialect closest relative is the hijazi dialect.

I've once watched a series on sudanese arabs where a lot of them speak of how they come from hijaz, yemen and even one of them said that they are jabartis from zaylac. Sudan had a christian kingdom as recent as the 16th century so the process of arabization took literally centuries. There are still many sudanese of nilotic origin found in sudan so in terms of genetics it's not a complete arabization.

 

[JackieBurkhart]

While there might be some truth to it i remember egyptions trying to infiltrate norther sudan but the vast majority of these who claim arab origin claim the hjaz not egypt and even their arabic dialect closest relative is the hijazi dialect.

I've once watched a series on sudanese arabs where a lot of them speak of how they come from hijaz, yemen and even one of them said that they are jabartis from zaylac. Sudan had a christian kingdom as recent as the 16th century so the process of arabization took literally centuries. There are still many sudanese of nilotic origin found in sudan so in terms of genetics it's not a complete arabization.

Somalis in Sudan?

 

[Garaad diinle]

Somalis in Sudan?

There is a group of people in sudan that call themselves jabarties. They claim to have come from yemen to zaylac where they stayed for a while then moved on to sudan where they were teaching people islam. I think they're know as sheikhs and teachers of islam and they live in central sudan.

 

[JackieBurkhart]

There is a group of people in sudan that call themselves jabarties. They claim to have come from yemen to zaylac where they stayed for a while then moved on to sudan where they were teaching people islam. I think they're know as sheikhs and teachers of islam and they live in central sudan.

I don't trust Somali origin groups claiming they came from Arabs unless they got genetic evidence.

(Sorry if the gif seems rude. My sense of humor doesn't translate well on the internet.)

 

[Nilotic]

@Nilotic I respect your people because they never gave up and fought for their freedom to have their own identity.

Thank you, walaal

I am proud of the fact that we never lost our Identities despite the immense costs, however, it's clear that Nilotes don't value their own lives either; I mean why would people continue to fight amongst themselves after going through such an ordeal?

Nilotes are easily the most violent people in Africa

It's a shame however that they can't separate Islam from being Arab. Islam if understood for what it truly is, is like a bright light that overwhelms every else.

Mankind are a fickle bunch. Sometimes I think we're no better than the animals you find in the forests.

It's very difficult to separate the two in light of the interactions we've had with the Arabs.

I don't really believe, however, I do see the value in Orthodox Islam, but ethnic pride should always be present -- like in the Turks and the Persians.

 

[Garaad diinle]

I don't trust Somali origin groups claiming they came from Arabs unless they got genetic evidence.

(Sorry if the gif seems rude. My sense of humor doesn't translate well on the internet.)

I'd agree. I belong to the great e-v32 which is what most somalis have and therefore i see myself as a somali, can't argue with evidence can we? In regard to the jabarties in sudan it's nothing extraordinary. Jabartii simply use to mean somalia with emphasis on zaylac but then later it expanded to mean east african muslims.

Have you ever heard of the famous egyptian historian named abd al-rahman al-Jabarti who meet napoleon? His 5th ancestor according to him came from zaylac. Many somalis use to travel to north africa so i wouldn't be surprised if these so called jabarties in sudan came from somalia.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

Kkkkk don't jump the gun calm down i know you're not an ana 3arab. I meant the other guy. He said that his been perceived as a "fake arab" which means he must of seen himself as an arab. I use to think that he was a nilo-saharan i mean it's right in his username name but i guess he has some arab blood in him.

I never mentioned anything about "seeing myself as arab" and I have also clearly stated I am against Sudanese people identifying with or associating with Arabs. I speak from experience but the whole "Fake-arab" thing isn't exclusive to me, I've heard it used to broadly insult Sudanese people regardless of their tribe.

As far as Arab blood is concerned we'll leave it as a mystery, maybe I have it maybe I don't.

 

[JackieBurkhart]

I never mentioned anything about "seeing myself as arab" and I have also clearly stated I am against Sudanese people identifying with or associating with Arabs. I speak from experience but the whole "Fake-arab" thing isn't exclusive to me, I've heard it used to broadly insult Sudanese people regardless of their tribe.

As far as Arab blood is concerned we'll leave it as a mystery, maybe I have it maybe I don't.

Can you address the article I linked? I want to see if you think it's accurate and covers the bases.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

@Nilo-Saharan. I found this article.
What do you think?
https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2020/12/04/are-sudanese-arabs/

Sorry if I miss important details that you may want me to talk about, maybe mention them if you have specific areas of confusion, but I just skimmed through this article for a minute or two and it kind of brushes surface-level knowledge for the most part but it also seems to get a couple of things totally wrong.

The regions they've proposed for Sudan are straight wrong, the unfound classification of the Nubian language family as Afro-Asiatic is based on nothing but possibly a mere speculation from the author, the even more catastrophic assumption that all Ancient Sudanese Nile-Valley languages were Afro-Asiatic, it also talks about Kushite identity vanishing in the 16th Century?! (Kush ceased to exist in 300AD ) some other more minor errors also come about specifically in the ancient section of the article however they aren't as hilarious to point out as these errors. It also uses outdated ethnological terms. The article looks like something out of the 70s in this regard.

The literature section does a decent job at briefly summarising the different perspectives on the whole identity problem, so I give merit to that but the previous nearly unacceptable mistakes made in previous sections of the article make me seriously doubt the value of this given merit.
The literature section does list a lot of their sources though, so it is instantly more reliable than the rest of the article.