I was providing a reason as to why armour fell out of use in post-16th century Horn history and kept it focused. I don’t agree with the degrading rhetoric and language you guys are using in this thread with regards to the Oromo.
The oromo question.
- Thread starter Soul Kaizer
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I was providing a reason as to why armour fell out of use in post-16th century Horn history and kept it focused. I don’t agree with the degrading rhetoric and language you guys are using in this thread with regards to the Oromo.
Of course, ambush and attack a foe who has firearms, that you lack. Makes sense.
Sounds like guerrilla warfare in a sense and is perfectly sensible and logical. It's like blaming somalia for attacking ethiopia in 1978, who was destabilized due to internal conflicts.
OR blaming wslf for using guerrilla and ambush tactics on the better equipped endf, instead of facing them in conventional war.
''it appears that Darrell Bates made a valid observation in 1979 when he stated: ''The Oromo people... watched the struggle between the Christians and Muslims .. with interest.
They had suffered in their time from both parties, and were waiting in the wings for opportunities to exact revenge and to recover lands which had been taken from them.''
(Darrell Bates, the abyssinian difficulty: the emperor theodorus and the magdala campaign, (oxford: oxford university press, 1979), 7.)
and!
''They were committed troops according to Almeida, because... they go to war and into battle determined and firmly resolved to conquer or die.''
Their pastoralism gave them the mobility to manuever strategically and tactically and to succeed against the better equipped and armed Christians and Muslims.''
{Almeida, the history of high ethiopia, pp. 136-137)
Soul Kaizer
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I understand the concept of guerrilla warfare and even the dervish used against the colonial powers.
However the means didn’t justify the end.
If only you guys created some sort of civilisation that surpassed Adal and Abbysinya I would be less salty but you guys just took over and nothing worth nothing until the modern period.
Why couldn’t you niggas go south.
Lol I see, you're just bitter about something none of us have any say over. Okay cool.
What happened is done bro, focus on today, if you're from somalia, you have a lot of work to do on that country bro, from hunger to fighting al shabab, to stopping nonsensical clan wars, etc.
Garaad diinle
When we talk about the oromo invation of the 16th century we must not neglect to mention the somali reconquista. After 250 years of the aforementioned invasion somalis fully recovered their fighting force and subsequently lunched a southward reconquista of both jubaland and nfd. Although they were unorganized and uncoordinated it was extremely successful.
The initial vanguard did more than 60% of the job and the additional reinforcement followed suit with a clean victory. The reconquista was so successful that it almost turned into a reverse conquest. Somalis infiltrated deep into dire alongside the dawa river in what is now the borana region. If it weren't for menelik and british involvement the sheer momentum would've pushed beyond the abaya all the way to the jimma sultanate.
Soul Kaizer
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Of course I’m bitter every major issue we have today can be linked back to the fall of adal.
oh ok, so you guys hating each other and fighting along clan lines (SNM, SPM, USC, and others), al shabab, state collapse, etc, is because of that? oh ok bro, cool story.
Soul Kaizer
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After the fall of adal many trade routes and cities were abandoned and people reverted back to pastoralist.
The petty clan squabble started as there was no unifying force for all Somalis in the north.
Had the fall of adal not happened people would’ve stay sedentary and these Qabil would have dissolved or their effect would be weak.
There wouldn’t be no battle for resources as adal had fertile land and access for trade.
Plus Ogaden war wouldn’t happened
Garaad diinle
Not to mention a mass conversion into paganism. Although the oromo religion inherently doesn't call for conversion, the overall religion seems to be ethno-centric the gada system decrees full conversion into their pagan religion as a form of cultural assimilation. The athan might not have been heard in places such as hararghe up until the 19th century when islam started to spread again into the interior.
Sounds like a lot of deflection and blaming others, when in reality, you guys fought each other on clan lines willingly. You guys weren't forced to not try creating another sultanate later on, right? Even in modern times, instead of siad barre and communism and etc, no?
Did we not have sultanates after the empires fell? It's just they were smaller and did not reach the power and coverage of Adal and Ajuuran.
That's good, just don't blame us, for doing what everyone else was doing (competing for land and resources) and certainly do not blame us for divisions amongst yourselves.
Garaad diinle
Precisely after the collapse of adal and ajuraan numerous small sultanates sprang up to fill the void and reorganise their ranks some even started to grow to assume the power of their predecessor such as the geledi who aspired to become the new ajuraan.
If we talk about modern history while it's true that somalia has been through a civil war the real question is who hasn't? Even the united states had a civil war of their own. What is really puzzling is that neighbouring countries that were supposed blitz somalia and became a successful developing country aren't doing that well. Kenya is 30% urbanized with the vast majority non urban and to a large degree pastoralist too not mention the country is very corrupted and is in debt to china.
Ethiopia filled with insurgents and liberation fronts is currently in a civil war of their own. The authoritarian country consist of numerous ethnic groups most of whom doesn't fancy each other. The economy isn't growing as fast it's population and the country isn't well devolved with many of it's population also being non-urbanized. You'd think with head start and a larger population not to mention 30 years of relative peace they'd be leaps and bound above somalia but as things stands now 30 years haven't made a substantial difference. Meanwhile the debt free somali government have been unlocking all kinds of achievement and somalia as a whole has a huge untapped potential.
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Ethiopia already had internal conflicts for decades ongoing, and still invaded Somalia in 1964 only to be repulsed by an ill-equipped Somali Republic. At-least in 77’ Somalia invaded an Ethiopia which had a bigger army, had more accumulated state resources and one which had enjoyed 50 years of uninterrupted Western arms shipments. It was not the poor innocent lamb your portraying it to be. Even today it’s riddled with internal conflicts that have reached conventional levels and death toll figures that put any Somali conflict of the last 30 years (or any period in our history) to shame.
Yeah Al-Shabaab is annoying, yes the pirates made a lot of noise, and sure the regional states are divided along clan lines but the majority of the civil-war post-Siad Barre consisted of low-intensity fighting or no fighting at all, never the conventional scale carnage seen in the Tigray War where 500 thousand people got wiped out in just 2 years or the other major conflicts raging in Ethiopia. In fact our biggest killer has been famine related not gun-violence, and even here the figures pale in comparison with Ethiopia or even North Korea.
Also, be aware that it’s much easier in the long term to put Somalia back together after state collapse, than it would be an Ethiopia post-state collapse, regardless of how long it takes. Eritrea for example will never return to Ethiopia, but a reunification between North and South Korea? Well, we already have the historic examples of North and South Yemen, East and West Germany, North and South Vietnam. In all those examples the countries could break up, re-unify, break up and re-unify as many times as they please because their bond is eternal even if geopolitics at times separates them.
The Soviet Union? In history’s dustbin. Yugoslavia? A dead blast from the past. Somalia is only going to emerge stronger from this situation, with clear checks and balances and regional distribution of national wealth, which is something that should have already been in place decades ago, but at-least its happening now.
As @Garaad diinle pointed out above, countries in the region had decades to leave Somalia completely in the dust but they didn’t, and now its definitely too late, as Somalia with its multiple deepwater ports, rich natural resources, robust economy, debt free status, and arms embargo lifted will remind you of what made our country great, just like your grandfathers knew back in the day when they ran Radio Afaan Oromo from Mogadishu.
Is there Somalispot Oromo version out there
can you give us the linkFrom what I've read on the 1964 incident/war/clash, it was a stale-mate, not a Somali victory. If you have objective/impartial sources that prove you claims, post them and I am glad to admit when/if I'm wrong.
Secondly, during the 1978 war, ethiopia was not only fighting other rebel groups, there was fighting from within (the derg was at war within); which of course, is the perfect time for somalia to invade. NEVER EVER did I say it was ''an innocent lamb,'' but a destabilized and easy to pick on, foe. Big difference between the two.
Regarding the rest of what you said, of course you are going to be optimistic regarding your homeland, fair enough, cannot blame you for that; but until it actually occurs.. it's theoretical.
When it does happen, I will definitely applause and salute Somalis. Until then, we focus on what's currently occurring, as opposed to what could, would, or should occur.
They invaded and were pushed back across the border, and then came to a peace agreement in Sudan. For Haile Selassie, which for at-least the preceding 30 years had been heavily lobbying and claiming that the whole of Somalia should be given to him like Eritrea, 64’ had to have been a bloody nose.
A stalemate for a young Somalia with a small army against a much larger neighbour (3 million vs 30 million) was tantamount to a victory, especially when that bigger neighbour immediately afterwards signed a mutual defence pact with another country. It would be like Kuwait repulsing Iraq all on its own in the First Gulf War and then Iraq signing a defensive agreement with Syria against Kuwait. I’m sure you wouldn’t need ‘impartial’ sources to come to that same conclusion.
Here is the issue I have with this position, all of the years before 77’, Ethiopia was fighting internal rebels, and all of the years after 77’ it was fighting internal rebels, so when was Somalia supposed to have invaded? Ethiopia had an intelligence service which was well aware of Somalia’s military buildup, and Somalia over the years made it no secret that it wanted to free various parts of the Ethiopian Empire.
In any case, at the start of the invasion, the Derg was a unified entity and Mengistu’s grip on Ethiopia was solid, and definitely not an easy foe to pick on. Their military also did not diminish in quality or hardware.
Well, Somalia has 4 to 5 deepwater ports, more than any other country in Africa. That’s not theoretical. Economy is also growing steadily. Debt has been cleared through a sound financial system, and the arms embargo has been lifted which will boost the Somali Armed Forces. There is a lot to be optimistic about.
Fair enough, but who invaded who? If ogaden is considered ethiopian, and somali militias invaded it; is that not considered to be an invasion of ethiopia?
from what i read, even from somali sources, it started when ethiopian forces were trying to forcefully tax the people, along with other things. It started when people elected Mukhtal Dahir at hodayo, north of werder, to lead them against Ethiopia.
the war started in july of 1977, but mengistu didn't eliminate his last rival in the derg (atnafu abate) until November of 1977. That's when he really solidified his control, and then began to stabilize things, but the war had already been raging for months by then, giving somalia a decisive advantage initially.
Yes, I didn't say somalia should or shouldn't have invaded, but I am merely pointing out that an already destabilized country is much easier to fight, than a stable and strong one.
That's great bro, when it happens, then we can all celebrate and salute you guys. When it happens though, not before.
Garaad diinle
Right on the spot. The ethiopian army historically speaking never been very functional and you don't need to look far back in time, just look at the tigre conflict a region that's not even 10% of the overall population was able to overwhelm the numerically larger and better equipped ethiopian army. The ethiopian state military apparatus was completely useless up until the intervention of neighbouring eritria and the purchase of turkish military drones.
Currently the ethiopian army is fully mobilised to take care of the fano insurgent but still they're unable to suppress them despite the air superiority and the use of the turkish drones. The "mighty" ethiopian army was also unable to keep eritria and eventually recognized their independent. In 1977 war somalis completely dominated the ground and would've also dominated the air if they were allowed to purchase advanced air defence systems but not only were the soviets unwilling to sell us these weapons but they also changed sides providing the ethiopian army with advanced weapons. Furthermore despite the numerical advantage the ethiopian army had during the war most of these reroutes weren't very useful making them a paper army which is why they also had an additional cuban support.
In 1964 haile selassie never agreed on the southern border line between somalia and ethiopia that still isn't demarcated till this day. He tried his luck and used his western trained and western armed army to encroach on the somali territory but a smaller yet braver somali army made sure to protect the front line and ethiopia would eventually sign a peace treaty despite there not being an international pressure to do so. There is a clear pattern in here, wither they're numerically larger or better equipped the ethiopian army unless there is a foreign support they're unable to do anything which is very reminiscent of the battle of shimbir kure where the small army of the imam was able to defeat the much larger solomonic army.
The reason for the non functional nature of the ethiopian army is that ethiopia as it's stands is a amharic/habasha project initially conquered by the solomonic dynasty led by menelik. Most of the inhabitant weren't allowed to participate in the government and were considered for a long time subjects to the amharic ruling power. Most of the population if not oppressed were considered cannon fodder or foot soldiers for the amharic state. Things are slowly changing now and ethiopianism is slowly being spread throughout the country. I've seen a number of people online speaking proudly of ethiopia despite them never really being part of "ethiopia's" history and were considered oppressed and discriminated against by the ethiopian government who've always seen them as cannon fodder. It almost feels like they're experiencing stockholm syndrome.
If you were to look at this from a poetical lens somalia and djibouti are the only muslim countries in east africa and despite muslims living in eretria, ethiopia, kenya, tanzania, uganda and south sudan non of these countries call themselves muslim states. In kenya somalis are the largest muslim ethnic group and in ethiopia they're the second largest muslim ethnic group meaning in east africa at large somalis are the largest muslim ethnic group and have a long history of islam stretching for more than a millennia. The somali coast was the gate ways of islam towards the interior of east africa and somalis as far back as the period of adal that was ruled by the walashma descendants from aw barkhadle were considered suzerans and leaders of the muslim communities in eastern africa. Somalia represents the islamic defiance to the habashi hegemony in east africa and somalis are the continuation of muslim resistance. Somalis are these who succeed adal and still carrying the banners of islam up high as the muslim country of somalia and djibouti.
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