This cushtic nonsense needs to die

Garaad Awal

Former African
There’s also those with Mota who cluster in “Somali range” with those who don’t. The Mota is real in these folks like myself. Even shows up for myself and my father on qpadm. We both get Ethiopian Highland matches from as far away as Shewa. There is definitely diversity among Somalis that @Shimbiris might be overlooking.
 

Shimbiris

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My Mother doesn’t have it show up on Ancestry, generally falls in the Somali range of WE/SSA but knows about her recent Yemeni ancestry and has plenty of Peninsular Arab matches to prove it. I get where you are coming from but there are a lot of Somalis with Yemeni ancestry that 23&me doesn’t pick up and you can generally tell from qpadm or G25z

@giire12 for example is only 15% Arabian according to 23&me but on G25 once using Cushitic vs Arabian type model can hit 25-30% range. 22&me has Somali samples who are generally West Eurasian shifted. Ancestry has the opposite problem which is why every Somali picks up a minor Habesha component.

If your mother falls within the normal admixture range then it's probably been "bred out" as any really noticeable admixture, walaal. Highly doubtful someone clustering so close to the Somali average has very recent noticeable Yemeni admixture autosomally speaking. They would show it in admixture levels. But her matches and history confirm for sure it at least exists as actual ancestry going back somewhere in her lineage.

I shouldn't have used the 23andme example, knew someone would fixate on it when it's just an off-hand. The main point is that the admixture levels are too uniform among all these samples and the truth is, you know as well as I do, that you can make almost every single sample's Arabian scores vary depending on how you structure the model. You're really wasting your time trying to suss this stuff out with G25.

There’s also those with Mota who cluster in “Somali range” with those who don’t. The Mota is real in these folks like myself. Even shows up for myself and my father on qpadm. We both get Ethiopian Highland matches from as far away as Shewa. There is definitely diversity among Somalis that @Shimbiris might be overlooking.

This is a bit of a poor comparison. Don't you show signs in terms of admixture levels? I remember your admixture levels being different from the average?
 
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Shimbiris

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Below is a good example of Somalis with real outside autosomal admix:


Notice how with them it also shows in their admixture levels being plainly off the average. Now, explain logically how someone can be 5-10% more Yemeni than other Somalis yet still fall within the normal ~2% variation of Somali admixture. That’s impossible.

And let’s be serious, walaal—bringing up DNA matches doesn’t prove anything in this context. Matches simply show shared segments, not that your autosomal breakdown reflects recent admixture. If your admixture levels fit within the Somali norm, then you cannot have real, recent foreign ancestry. Not even recombination could explain that.
 

Garaad Awal

Former African
This is a bit of a poor comparison. Don't you show signs in terms of admixture levels? I remember your admixture levels being different from the average?
Not a poor comparison at all. Both my father and I fall in the average. In fact there are Southerners who are less West Eurasian than my father and I who show no Mota or Neolithic Iranian. So again your theory that no diversity among Somalis exist falls flat. One can have Mota or recent Arabian ancestry and still fall within the general range from Somaliweyn. You are ignoring or even rejecting the idea of regional differences despite this being the case. So someone from a region that tends to be less West Eurasian than let’s PL folks but has recent Yemeni admixture in the last 5 generations can end up looking very similar to PL Somalis and atleast appear pure which is what’s happening with my mother.
 

Shimbiris

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Not a poor comparison at all. Both my father and I fall in the average. In fact there are Southerners who are less West Eurasian than my father and I who show no Mota or Neolithic Iranian. So again your theory that no diversity among Somalis exist falls flat. One can have Mota or recent Arabian ancestry and still fall within the general range from Somaliweyn. You are ignoring or even rejecting the idea of regional differences despite this being the case. So someone from a region that tends to be less West Eurasian than let’s PL folks but has recent Yemeni admixture in the last 5 generations can end up looking very similar to PL Somalis and atleast appear pure which is what’s happening with my mother.

What I explained below is pretty simple and inarguable, to be honest:

Below is a good example of Somalis with real outside autosomal admix:


Notice how with them it also shows in their admixture levels being plainly off the average. Now, explain logically how someone can be 5-10% more Yemeni than other Somalis yet still fall within the normal ~2% variation of Somali admixture. That’s impossible.

And let’s be serious, walaal—bringing up DNA matches doesn’t prove anything in this context. Matches simply show shared segments, not that your autosomal breakdown reflects recent admixture. If your admixture levels fit within the Somali norm, then you cannot have real, recent foreign ancestry. Not even recombination could explain that.

It is impossible to be 5-10% more Yemeni than other Somalis, or 5-10% more Mota with significant Oromo or Xabashi admixture, and still fall within the normal ~2% variation of Somali autosomal makeup. If your overall genetic composition were truly distinct, it would show in your overall admixture levels—there’s no way around that. Not even recombination can explain it. It just isn’t possible.

What’s far more likely happening is exactly what I explained in that other thread about G25 getting thrown off by drift patterns and affinities—especially when individual samples, rather than population averages, are used. This effect is even worse with modern samples, where genetic noise can create misleading interpretations.

Most likely, what’s being picked up are segments your mom shares with Yemenis, inflating her shared drift with them and thus deflating her Natufian and inflating her Arabian because she shares extra drift with them in some segments other Somalis do not—but her actual autosomal admixture per component remains within the Somali norm, or she simply would not cluster with Somalis the way she does. Even qpAdm is completely susceptible to this type of skewing caused by your hooyo's shared drift with Yemenis.

If she truly had recent, significant foreign admixture, it would be reflected in her overall admixture levels plainly like with those Kenyans. It’s that simple.
 
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Garaad Awal

Former African
What I explained below is pretty simple and inarguable, to be honest:



It is impossible to be 5-10% more Yemeni than other Somalis, or 5-10% more Mota with significant Oromo or Xabashi admixture, and still fall within the normal ~2% variation of Somali autosomal makeup. If your overall genetic composition were truly distinct, it would show in your overall admixture levels—there’s no way around that. Not even recombination can explain it. It just isn’t possible.

What’s far more likely happening is exactly what I explained in that other thread about G25 getting thrown off by drift patterns and affinities—especially when individual samples, rather than population averages, are used. This effect is even worse with modern samples, where genetic noise can create misleading interpretations.

Most likely, what’s being picked up are segments your mom shares with Yemenis, inflating her shared drift with them and thus deflating her Natufian and inflating her Arabian because she shares extra drift with them in some segments other Somalis do not—but her actual autosomal admixture per component remains within the Somali norm, or she simply would not cluster with Somalis the way she does. Even qpAdm is completely susceptible to this type of skewing caused by your hooyo's shared drift with Yemenis.

If she truly had recent, significant foreign admixture, it would be reflected in her overall admixture levels plainly like with those Kenyans. It’s that simple.
I have verified everything even on qpadm. My Mota & father’s Mota on qpadm & G25 were similar. My mother also has extra Yemeni/W.Eurasian compared to me and my father on qpadm & G25z So unless you are willing to throw out qpadm because it doesn’t fit your theory then I don’t know what other tool you can use. Only PCAs?
 

Shimbiris

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I have verified everything even on qpadm. My Mota & father’s Mota on qpadm & G25 were similar. My mother also has extra Yemeni/W.Eurasian compared to me and my father on qpadm & G25z So unless you are willing to throw out qpadm because it doesn’t fit your theory then I don’t know what other tool you can use. Only PCAs?

Did you not read when I wrote:

Even qpAdm is completely susceptible to this type of skewing caused by your hooyo's shared drift with Yemenis.

That you would even answer with this shows you don't seem to understand how these tools work and think qpAdm is some statistical magic that's somehow magically better than G25 based nMonte. Neither is better than the other, they come at the same issue differently. It is just as easily skewed by drift sharing. It's actually cool that both appear to match closely according to you as they're both clearly picking up on shared drift your parents have with Yemenis and Xabashis respectively and thus deflating their Natufian-like in favor of elevating their Yemeni and Mota affinities respectively.

But again, it is near completely impossible to be within the normal ~2% Somali admixture range and have real variation for the individual components. Simply impossible, saaxiib. I don't know why I have to keep explaining this.
 

johnsepei5

Head of Somalia freemasonry branch
VIP
The guy looked like the brits from 1800s who went to Greece and tried to inspire the revolutionaries by reciting homers verses in ancient Greek, the Greek he was talking to were like: What the f*ck he is saying I can't understand his weird language. The OP had same moment with r/Sudan members

Bruh what
Nothing Reddit op said was a lie

are you saying Sudanese are intellectually null and can’t comprehend genetics
 

Shimbiris

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VIP
they never identified as cushitic nor knew they are perceived as cushitic

All the groups under the linguistic grouping of Cushitic did in fact practice a very similar culture just a hundred years ago right down to their clothes:

We belong to the same cultural region. Even in the early modern era the inhabitants of the Horn, Sudan, Southern Egypt (Lower Nubia) and Chad largely dressed in that white-robes motif:

The Tobe, or Abyssinian “Quarry,” is the general garment of Africa from Zayla to Bornou. In the Somali country it is a cotton sheet eight cubits long, and two breadths sewn together. An article of various uses, like the Highland plaid, it is worn in many ways; sometimes the right arm is bared; in cold weather the whole person is muffled up, and in summer it is allowed to full below the waist. Generally it is passed behind the back, rests upon the left shoulder, is carried forward over the breast, surrounds the body, and ends hanging on the left shoulder, where it displays a gaudy silk fringe of red and yellow. This is the man’s Tobe. The woman’s dress is of similar material, but differently worn: the edges are knotted generally over the right, sometimes over the left shoulder; it is girdled round the waist, below which hangs a lappet, which in cold weather can be brought like a hood over the head. Though highly becoming, and picturesque as the Roman toga, the Somali Tobe is by no means the most decorous of dresses: women in the towns often prefer the Arab costume,—a short-sleeved robe extending to the knee, and a Futah or loin-cloth underneath. -First footsteps in East Africa

Egypt, Sudan & Chad:

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Abyssinia and Eritrean coast:

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Somalia:

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I strongly suspect that by its strong resemblance to Ancient Nubian and Egyptian reliefs this style of dressing is thousands of years old and it may have also once been just as common in Arabia as well given the Hajj dress-code and some examples I've seen of Bedouin attire across Arabia around the 19th century.

They were also definitely in regular contact and aware of one another and their affinities at least just based on looks and vibes. When Sayyid Maxamed Cabdulle Xasan was starting out with his movement he saw the Mahdi of Sudan as inspiration and the Brits mention in their accounts of fighting the Daraawiish that there even men from Sudan among the Somalis fighting:


Our ancestors even practiced "racism" when practicing slavery and treated Oromo slaves better than Bantu ones. And this is to say nothing of how outsiders pretty much perceived us all as a cultural block:

 

Aurelian

Forza Somalia!
VIP
All the groups under the linguistic grouping of Cushitic did in fact practice a very similar culture just a hundred years ago right down to their clothes:



They were also definitely in regular contact and aware of one another and their affinities at least just based on looks and vibes. When Sayyid Maxamed Cabdulle Xasan was starting out with his movement he saw the Mahdi of Sudan as inspiration and the Brits mention in their accounts of fighting the Daraawiish that there even men from Sudan among the Somalis fighting:


Our ancestors even practiced "racism" when practicing slavery and treated Oromo slaves better than Bantu ones. And this is to say nothing of how outsiders pretty much perceived us all as a cultural block:

Haa, but the (modern) Sudanese had no concept of cushinimo, most of them, as expected, don't feel connected to horn Africans through cushitinmo.
 
Again, you're overstating it. There aren't a lot of such people They're at best a tiny minority and usually recent and know about the admixture like my cousin. I've been in the pop gen game for like 15 years and have never noticed some notable commonness of Arabian admixture in coastal northerners that isn't already in all other Somalis.

If you're referencing something like how the Yemeni in Somalis using nMonte and G25 can vary, even in interior Somalis, that's not really "Yemeni admixture variance", saaxiib:



If you're fitting within the ~44-46% MENA admixture range of all other Somalis and can probably form the "Ethio-Somali" cluster with them or fit 95-100% within the Somali cluster on 23andme then, trust me, the variance in Yemeni nMonte is showing you is nothing.

If you actually show notable MENA on something like 23andme and/or vary from other Somalis notably in terms of admixture levels then have elevated elevated Yemeni that doesn't even look al-Jawf using nMonte like with all other Horners and you know about recent admixture then we can talk and that almost never happens.
You were right when you said that the samples that turned 12% Arabian were wrongly designated.

I have proved this:

1741962550937.png


I used the least Arabian samples 0-3% as representative of the source, while I added Bronze Age Levantine (reflects the Arabian-like because it neatly reflects this ancestry type) as a stand-in for Arab, then I added Nilo-Saharan. Notice how when the Levantine ancestry rises, Nilo-Saharan elevates in direct proportionality? Well, this is because it is Cushitic ancestry. To know if these people are more or less Arabian, you subtract the NS from the BA Levant and then you will get a decrease or increase. So sample SOMALI6 that is supposedly 12% Arab is likely just 4%.

This makes perfect sense because the basal similarity between the most "Arab" samples was effectively in the same range without much discernment. It's simply because Somalis don't have a lot of Arabian ancestry. Outliers will score higher. I am an outlier, and let me demonstrate how I look using that same source:

1741962942197.png


This is in the ballpark of my 23andme readings:
1741963014661.png


See, no Nilo-Saharan.

Using the averages by Michalis:
1741963381287.png


Somalilanders who have the sample size of 9 barely got anything higher than the selected source samples which were the least Arabian. They're not exceptionally Arabian.

You might ask, but why is the number from Somali less and the BA and NS increased? Because there is an internal signature dimension that is entirely Somali but has differences within Somalis. Meaning, although the source samples who represent southern, northeastern, and central Somalis, there are slight shifts in what is Somali ancestry. Basically one pure sample that is fully Somali might account for 80% of Somali genetics.

To illustrate what I mean (the most outer circle represents the signature extent and boundary, hypothetically, whereas anything outside that is admixture):
1741968726080.png


These are overlapping circles that represent parts of Somali ancestry with the entire thing representing that extent of the internalized diversity without any admixture. However, it does not mean that if samples are 90% overlapping, that the other 10% is foreign. No. That sample is going to soak up the entire 100% because it is Somali ancestry but still, the fit is going to increase. Still, the other 10% is just a homogenous cluster with the rest of the 90%, it's just that no one sample is representative of all non-admixed Somalis to a perfect extent, although as far as homogenity goes, they do represent better than anything else, especially compared to other population internal differences.

Within-signature dimensionality can strictly be because of zero admixture, theoretically speaking.

Look at the Kenyan Somalis, they have higher NS than BA Levant and this checks out. Some of those samples received increased non-Cushitic DNA that was not Eurasian.

To summarize, the Arab ancestry in non-admixed Somalis is greatly exaggerated, where people who have 8% are actually outliers.

We have Giire, who is a Habar Awal (from what I recall) who clearly is very Arab:
1741970329531.png


On par with the Saho:
1741970560171.png


There are some samples taken from a research on UAE that seem to show Somalis:

1741969981299.png


They show fluctuations. The first one clearly has more than the average Arab ancestry, but its like tops 7%. The second one likely fits in the normal range. The third one is similar to the Somalilander samples (does not mean its from there). The fourth one is very similar to the source samples but with slightly higher Arabian. Maybe it's from the south central or Puntland. The third one is a bit higher but we have to remember the taforalt typically levels toward the non-NS needs, so you can roughly group it with the Levant. Then the last one, which is kind of within the norm.

It seems like Somalis are in general 0-5% Arabian.

Look at the average of all the samples (removed the samples from Kenya and likewise did not include the heavy Arab ones):
1741970709849.png


It shows parity between the Jordan EBA and Sudanese, which shows that on average, most Somalis are not that Arab when they don't have any recent admixture. But that does not mean there are not outliers. Many of them exist, but they don't make up a bulk that shifts anything tremendously. Most of the Arab stuff you see is something that was likely soaked up many centuries ago.

These are the Somali Emirati samples:

Emirati_(Somali_Profile):GSM5579195,-0.293664,0.092413,-0.028284,-0.0646,0.005847,-0.032351,-0.016216,-0.001154,0.117806,-0.075628,-0.016401,-0.010341,0.008028,0.004129,0.030266,-0.015115,0.017211,-0.004814,0.014455,-0.005753,0.005865,0.01558,-0.008134,0.005422,-0.003592
Emirati_(Somali_Profile):GSM5579197,-0.291387,0.098506,-0.032809,-0.060401,0.005232,-0.036535,-0.017391,0.004846,0.121692,-0.084375,-0.00065,-0.018583,0.009663,-0.00867,0.017915,-0.018695,0.029467,-0.001267,0.002137,-0.002626,0.000624,0.002473,0.001479,-0.001446,-0.00491
Emirati_(Somali_Profile):GSM5579207,-0.294802,0.089367,-0.025267,-0.069445,0,-0.027889,-0.019741,0.010846,0.106352,-0.081095,-0.007145,-0.002098,0.00892,0.007294,0.02348,-0.016839,0.019818,-0.010135,0.012444,-0.007629,-0.008235,0.015828,0.001602,0.001928,0.003473
Emirati_(Somali_Profile):GSM5579215,-0.303908,0.092413,-0.034318,-0.082688,0.004616,-0.030678,-0.023031,0.006,0.128032,-0.086744,-0.012342,-0.000599,0.003568,-0.003991,0.019951,-0.020286,0.019166,-0.001774,0.013575,-0.000375,0.004492,0.004946,-0.00037,-0.004338,0.003473
Emirati_(Somali_Profile):GSM5579217,-0.310737,0.085304,-0.023381,-0.071706,0.012002,-0.038487,-0.023971,0.009461,0.114329,-0.077633,-0.01429,3.00E-04,0.00223,-0.005643,0.029858,-0.017502,0.016298,-0.003294,0.006788,-0.006628,-0.000749,0.007419,-0.001972,0.002289,-0.007185
Emirati_(Somali_Profile):GSM5579227,-0.29594,0.094444,-0.01697,-0.070091,0.004616,-0.037929,-0.024441,0.004154,0.122919,-0.077086,-0.009094,-0.009142,0.002676,-0.004954,0.025651,-0.011403,0.036247,-0.004434,0.014707,-0.004002,0.001373,0.001855,-0.006039,0.013616,0.002155

For example, this was designated as Sudanese Arab, but really is half Somalis, half Arab:

Emirati_(Sudanese_Arab_Profile(50%_Somali-50%_Arab):GSM5578682,-0.130897,0.122879,-0.046009,-0.093347,-0.007386,-0.037371,-0.019271,0.002769,0.085491,-0.042461,0.002111,-0.013788,0.028692,0.003441,0.019272,-0.005436,-0.007953,-0.005321,0.005782,-0.002126,0.013351,0.014096,-0.011955,0.002771,-0.00479

My own description is on the right side.

There are Sudanese, and seemingly Beja samples available from that UAE dataset that I should also post about. They are interesting. I had to correct some of the readings from the original labelling.
 
You were right when you said that the samples that turned 12% Arabian were wrongly designated.

I have proved this:

View attachment 357030

I used the least Arabian samples 0-3% as representative of the source, while I added Bronze Age Levantine (reflects the Arabian-like because it neatly reflects this ancestry type) as a stand-in for Arab, then I added Nilo-Saharan. Notice how when the Levantine ancestry rises, Nilo-Saharan elevates in direct proportionality? Well, this is because it is Cushitic ancestry. To know if these people are more or less Arabian, you subtract the NS from the BA Levant and then you will get a decrease or increase. So sample SOMALI6 that is supposedly 12% Arab is likely just 4%.

This makes perfect sense because the basal similarity between the most "Arab" samples was effectively in the same range without much discernment. It's simply because Somalis don't have a lot of Arabian ancestry. Outliers will score higher. I am an outlier, and let me demonstrate how I look using that same source:

View attachment 357031

This is in the ballpark of my 23andme readings:
View attachment 357032

See, no Nilo-Saharan.

Using the averages by Michalis:
View attachment 357033

Somalilanders who have the sample size of 9 barely got anything higher than the selected source samples which were the least Arabian. They're not exceptionally Arabian.

You might ask, but why is the number from Somali less and the BA and NS increased? Because there is an internal signature dimension that is entirely Somali but has differences within Somalis. Meaning, although the source samples who represent southern, northeastern, and central Somalis, there are slight shifts in what is Somali ancestry. Basically one pure sample that is fully Somali might account for 80% of Somali genetics.

To illustrate what I mean (the most outer circle represents the signature extent and boundary, hypothetically, whereas anything outside that is admixture):
View attachment 357036

These are overlapping circles that represent parts of Somali ancestry with the entire thing representing that extent of the internalized diversity without any admixture. However, it does not mean that if samples are 90% overlapping, that the other 10% is foreign. No. That sample is going to soak up the entire 100% because it is Somali ancestry but still, the fit is going to increase. Still, the other 10% is just a homogenous cluster with the rest of the 90%, it's just that no one sample is representative of all non-admixed Somalis to a perfect extent, although as far as homogenity goes, they do represent better than anything else, especially compared to other population internal differences.

Within-signature dimensionality can strictly be because of zero admixture, theoretically speaking.

Look at the Kenyan Somalis, they have higher NS than BA Levant and this checks out. Some of those samples received increased non-Cushitic DNA that was not Eurasian.

To summarize, the Arab ancestry in non-admixed Somalis is greatly exaggerated, where people who have 8% are actually outliers.

We have Giire, who is a Habar Awal (from what I recall) who clearly is very Arab:
View attachment 357038

On par with the Saho:
View attachment 357039

There are some samples taken from a research on UAE that seem to show Somalis:

View attachment 357037

They show fluctuations. The first one clearly has more than the average Arab ancestry, but its like tops 7%. The second one likely fits in the normal range. The third one is similar to the Somalilander samples (does not mean its from there). The fourth one is very similar to the source samples but with slightly higher Arabian. Maybe it's from the south central or Puntland. The third one is a bit higher but we have to remember the taforalt typically levels toward the non-NS needs, so you can roughly group it with the Levant. Then the last one, which is kind of within the norm.

It seems like Somalis are in general 0-5% Arabian.

Look at the average of all the samples (removed the samples from Kenya and likewise did not include the heavy Arab ones):
View attachment 357040

It shows parity between the Jordan EBA and Sudanese, which shows that on average, most Somalis are not that Arab when they don't have any recent admixture. But that does not mean there are not outliers. Many of them exist, but they don't make up a bulk that shifts anything tremendously. Most of the Arab stuff you see is something that was likely soaked up many centuries ago.

These are the Somali Emirati samples:



For example, this was designated as Sudanese Arab, but really is half Somalis, half Arab:



My own description is on the right side.

There are Sudanese, and seemingly Beja samples available from that UAE dataset that I should also post about. They are interesting. I had to correct some of the readings from the original labelling.
What study was this?
 

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