Were the Fakr al Din and Muzaffar dynasties Somali or Arab/Persian

[Som]

Do you honestly believe a foreign ship can come and settle into the coast to establish their own settlement? You make it seem like there was no settlement before their arrival. Trading cities have existed throughout Horn of Africa for thousands of years.

Why did you ignore this source when @Mckenzie showed you? Arabs did not found Mogadishu or any Benadir port.

Founded by Somalis, the city was majority Somalis and ruled by Somalis. Immigrants assimilated into the society and Somalis controlled the flow of them, being able to deny and expel them at will.


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And these three tidbits.

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So it is established by this book that Somalis, and our ancestors lived in the Horn of Africa and had trading cities as noted by Greek and Arab cartographers. It is also known that 200 years before Ibn Battuta came to Mogadishu and described it as a predominately Somali city ruled by a Somali Sultan, al-Idrisi described Merca, Mogadishu and the settlements inbetween them around the 'Nile of Mogadishu' to be predominately Somali, infact It is also established that Mogadishu was one of the original coastal settlements of the Somali people. 100 years after that and before Ibn Battuta came, another Arab cartographer described it as the homeland of a Somali people.

It is established that Mogadishu amongst other coastal cities, were founded and inhabited by the ancestors of the Somali. After a long while the city grew more and more after inital trade with Arab, Persian, Indian, Chinese traders. Arab and Persian traders who would later settle in the city. There is a reason they were drawn to the city. And later the city would turn into a Sultanate led by a Somali Sultan, who would turn the city into a religious and trading center, that allowed for more immigrants to arrive.

Thank you. As I said I'm open abour changing my mind . If I'm not mistaken arab contributions were also exaggerated on the swahili coast, historians now believe that many of the Shirazi and Arab "founders" were actually local muslims who wanted to take pride in prestigious linesge from established muslim communities.
Anyway What can you tell me about the whole "somalis came to mogadishu in the 17th century and killed the muzzafar Sultan" that Grant is talking about? I also read from Cerulli about the fact that Hawiye were not allowed in the city after dark and that they became dominant only after killing the arab rulers. What's your opinion on what grant is saying? I trust you as a fairly knowledgeable guy on this website.

 

[Factz]

Thank you. As I said I'm open abour changing my mind . If I'm not mistaken arab contributions were also exaggerated on the swahili coast, historians now believe that many of the Shirazi and Arab "founders" were actually local muslims who wanted to take pride in prestigious linesge from established muslim communities.
Anyway What can you tell me about the whole "somalis came to mogadishu in the 17th century and killed the muzzafar Sultan" that Grant is talking about? I also read from Cerulli about the fact that Hawiye were not allowed in the city after dark and that they became dominant only after killing the arab rulers. What's your opinion on what grant is saying? I trust you as a fairly knowledgeable guy on this website.

That is a false blog supporting false traditions. The earlier source I showed you debunked their traditions and claimed "it is widely accepted" (key word) that there were preexisting native African communities before the arrival of Arab immigrants. In fact, it went further and claimed they were numerically and politically inferior compared to the local Somalis. The source also debunks the Shirazi and Arab traditions for founding the Swahili ports.

The Ajuran Sultanate was founded in 1251 by Dayle, the first king of Ajuran, and according to Ajuran tradition, they conquered Mogadishu in 1274 and took over and ruled Mogadishu after killing the last sultanate of Mogadishu. A sub-clan of Ajuran called Moorshe flood into Mogadishu and became the predominant inhabitants of the city.

It was therefore the Ajuran who ruled Mogadishu as a hereditary monarchy when Ibn Battuta arrived in 1331, but not THE ruler of Ajuran, who did not reside in Mogadishu but rather a local governor, the Sheikh, from some branch of the Gareen dynasty, perhaps the Abdallah Dayle branch.

It is noted Mogadishu was a province of the Ajuran Sultanate.

The Mudaffar dynasty was actually an Ajuran family that ruled Mogadishu.

Even during the fall of the Ajuran when the Yaquub dynasty took over Mogadishu. The Ajuran lived in the key quarter of Mogadishu.

 

[Som]

That is a false blog supporting false traditions. The earlier source I showed you debunked their traditions and claimed "it is widely accepted" (key word) that there were preexisting native African communities before the arrival of Arab immigrants. In fact, it went further and claimed they were numerically and politically inferior compared to the local Somalis. The source also debunks the Shirazi and Arab traditions for founding the Swahili ports.

The Ajuran Sultanate was founded in 1251 by Dayle, the first king of Ajuran, and according to Ajuran tradition, they conquered Mogadishu in 1274 and took over and ruled Mogadishu after killing the last sultanate of Mogadishu. A sub-clan of Ajuran called Moorshe flood into Mogadishu and became the predominant inhabitants of the city.

It was therefore the Ajuran who ruled Mogadishu as a hereditary monarchy when Ibn Battuta arrived in 1331, but not THE ruler of Ajuran, who did not reside in Mogadishu but rather a local governor, the Sheikh, from some branch of the Gareen dynasty, perhaps the Abdallah Dayle branch.

It is noted Mogadishu was a province of the Ajuran Sultanate.

View attachment 142424

The Mudaffar dynasty was actually an Ajuran family that ruled Mogadishu.

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Even during the fall of the Ajuran when the Yaquub dynasty took over Mogadishu. The Ajuran lived in the key quarter of Mogadishu.

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Thank you.
Do you have the names of the books you quoted from? especially the one that debunks the arab traditions about the founders of Xamar.

 

[Factz]

Thank you.
Do you have the names of the books you quoted from? especially the one that debunks the arab traditions about the founders of Xamar.

Ajuran Sultanate history: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...HEKHdptCuIQ6AEwAHoECAEQAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Debunking false traditions: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...BUIHbbAClEQ6AEwAHoECAUQAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Grant]

Who is the Barbar sultan ibn battuta talked about? It's a clear indication that non-arabs played a significant role in Xamar way before the Muzzaffars.

The court titles and function of the court given by Ibn Battuta are clearly not Somali. My best guess is that he was a descendant of Fakr al Din by a native woman, which by Somali reckoning would still be Arab.. The Wiki article has been cleaned up.

Sultanate of Mogadishu - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The Fakhr al-Din dynasty ruled 1269 up until the late 16th century or start of 1600's until it got replaced by the Muzaffar dynasty in the late 16th century.[4]Subsequently the ruling Muzaffar dynasty formed an alliance with the emerging Ajuran Sultanate and ended around 1623 with the demise of the Ajuran who were raided by pastoral Somalis of the Hawiye."

There is no indication of a break in the Fakr al Din dynasty until about 1600, so Muzzaffar rule was brief. Some authors give a date as early as 1590 and as late as 1625 or 1634.

Texts and Pretexts : the Unity of the Rasulid State under al-Malik al-Muzaffar - Persée

The Rasulide trading empire under al-Malik al-Muzaffar. The dynasty continued in Yemen after the Muzaffar governor was killed in Mogadishu. They controlled Dhofar and even Mecca at times.

 

[Som]

That is a false blog supporting false traditions. The earlier source I showed you debunked their traditions and claimed "it is widely accepted" (key word) that there were preexisting native African communities before the arrival of Arab immigrants. In fact, it went further and claimed they were numerically and politically inferior compared to the local Somalis. The source also debunks the Shirazi and Arab traditions for founding the Swahili ports.

The Ajuran Sultanate was founded in 1251 by Dayle, the first king of Ajuran, and according to Ajuran tradition, they conquered Mogadishu in 1274 and took over and ruled Mogadishu after killing the last sultanate of Mogadishu. A sub-clan of Ajuran called Moorshe flood into Mogadishu and became the predominant inhabitants of the city.

It was therefore the Ajuran who ruled Mogadishu as a hereditary monarchy when Ibn Battuta arrived in 1331, but not THE ruler of Ajuran, who did not reside in Mogadishu but rather a local governor, the Sheikh, from some branch of the Gareen dynasty, perhaps the Abdallah Dayle branch.

It is noted Mogadishu was a province of the Ajuran Sultanate.

View attachment 142424

The Mudaffar dynasty was actually an Ajuran family that ruled Mogadishu.

View attachment 142426

Even during the fall of the Ajuran when the Yaquub dynasty took over Mogadishu. The Ajuran lived in the key quarter of Mogadishu.

View attachment 142427

Anyway some time ago i made a post with my own "timeline of the history of mogadishu "according to arab and portoguese sources i found online.
I'll post it here feel free to correct me.
2nd century AD , Sarapion is mentioned by greek geographers. Scholars place ancient sarapion between modern day Mogadishu and Warsheikh. The coast of somalia was inhabited by barbaroi(barbarians in greek) but not much is said about their identity.
-9th-10th century. Arabs and persians settled in what is now Mogadishu.
12th century. Al idrisi mentions the Hawiye in Merca for the first time . This proofs somalis already lived on the coast.
-12th century ibn Sa'id mentions Merca as the capital of the Hawiye country. Note evidence of somali presence south of Mogadishu.
-13th century Yaqut Hamawi mentions Merca as a city inhabited by black berbers.
-13th century Hamawi mentions Mogadishu as a city inhabited by dark skinned people but says blacks aren not the majority
-14th century Ibn Battuta visits Mogadishu, the sultan is described as a berber who spoke both arabic and "mogadishan".. This is the first medieval source clearly suggesting a somali ruled over Mogadishu.
-15th century Vasco da Gama describes Xamar as a moorish city inhabited by tawny, black and white skinned people. This means Mogadishu was probably a multiethnic city with , somalis, arabs and maybe some bantus.
-16th century other Portuguese sources mention black and brown people living in Mogadishu. Duarte Barbosa says that most inhabitants are either brown/dusky or black ( probably somalis) and a few are fair (probably arabs) . This indicates that Somalis were already a majority in the city but an arab minority lived there
-Late 16th - early 17th century . Mogadishu starts to decline , omanis occupy the city for a brief period but leave shortly after. Portuguese try to establish a stable presence in Mogadishu, Barawe and Merca but fail.
-17th century Mogadishu is captured by Hawiyes who defeated the Ajuuraan in the interior and the muzzafar(arabized somali dinasty?).
-From the late 17th century the city started to become even more somalized and arabs(cadcads) lost most of their power.
-17th century An ottoman explorer Evliya Celebis(died in 1682) describes Mogadishu as a city of merchants with a strong nomadic carachter.He describes the people as practicing muslims who speak arabic and a strange local dialect(af somali),
-18th century, Hawiyes become imams of the city but arabs are still allowed to nominate Qadi. Present day benadiri clans change their arabic names to somali ones.
It's pretty unique because arabs in most cases in Africa arabs arabize locals , but in this case arabs have been somalised.
- mid 19th century Omanis from Zanzibar start to get interested in the city which is ruled by then and the Geledi Somalis untill the arrival of the italians.
The rest is recent history.

My conclusion is that Mogadishu was a somali settlement, when arabs arrived in the 9th century they developed the city together with locals and they formed a unique somali arabised(muslim) city. The city hosted many different ethnicities mainly somali, arabs and mixed arab-somalis. By the 16th -17th century Xamar declined after being bombed by the portoguese, nomadic hawiye somalis conquered the city from the muzzafar and ruled it untill the mid 19th century when Omanis established garrison there.

 

[Som]

The court titles and function of the court given by Ibn Battuta are clearly not Somali. My best guess is that he was a descendant of Fakr al Din by a native woman, which by Somali reckoning would still be Arab.. The Wiki article has been cleaned up.

Sultanate of Mogadishu - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The Fakhr al-Din dynasty ruled 1269 up until the late 16th century or start of 1600's until it got replaced by the Muzaffar dynasty in the late 16th century or 1600.[4]Subsequently the ruling Muzaffar dynasty formed an alliance with the emerging Ajuran Sultanate and ended around 1623 with the demise of the Ajuran who were raided by pastoral Somalis of the Hawiye."

There is no indication of a break in the Fakr al Din dynasty until about 1600, so Muzzaffar rule was brief.

Texts and Pretexts : the Unity of the Rasulid State under al-Malik al-Muzaffar - Persée

The Rasulide trading empire under al-Malik al-Muzaffar. The dynasty continued in Yemen after the Muzaffar governor was killed in Mogadishu. They controlled Dhofar and even Mecca at times.


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So you are guessing.
Let's look at the source. Ibn battuta says the sultan was a barbar. If he was an arab why not say he was arab? Half arabs were considered arabs as you point out so why not mentioning this?
This is the quote by ibn battuta
CONCERNING THE SULTAN OF MOGADISHU
As we have said, the Sultan of Mogadishu is called Shaikh by his subjects. His name is Abu Bark ibn Shaikh Omar, and by race he is a Berber.(huwa fi'l-asl min al-Barbara). He talks in the language of Mogadishu but knows Arabic.

be honest for once, every thing in tbis description indicates that the sultan was NOT arab. Even Cerulli guessed he wasn't arab and proposed he spoke either sonali or a local language

 

[Factz]

Anyway some time ago i made a post with my own "timeline of the history of mogadishu "according to arab and portoguese sources i found online.
I'll post it here feel free to correct me.
2nd century AD , Sarapion is mentioned by greek geographers. Scholars place ancient sarapion between modern day Mogadishu and Warsheikh. The coast of somalia was inhabited by barbaroi(barbarians in greek) but not much is said about their identity.
-9th-10th century. Arabs and persians settled in what is now Mogadishu.
12th century. Al idrisi mentions the Hawiye in Merca for the first time . This proofs somalis already lived on the coast.
-12th century ibn Sa'id mentions Merca as the capital of the Hawiye country. Note evidence of somali presence south of Mogadishu.
-13th century Yaqut Hamawi mentions Merca as a city inhabited by black berbers.
-13th century Hamawi mentions Mogadishu as a city inhabited by dark skinned people but says blacks aren not the majority
-14th century Ibn Battuta visits Mogadishu, the sultan is described as a berber who spoke both arabic and "mogadishan".. This is the first medieval source clearly suggesting a somali ruled over Mogadishu.
-15th century Vasco da Gama describes Xamar as a moorish city inhabited by tawny, black and white skinned people. This means Mogadishu was probably a multiethnic city with , somalis, arabs and maybe some bantus.
-16th century other Portuguese sources mention black and brown people living in Mogadishu. Duarte Barbosa says that most inhabitants are either brown/dusky or black ( probably somalis) and a few are fair (probably arabs) . This indicates that Somalis were already a majority in the city but an arab minority lived there
-Late 16th - early 17th century . Mogadishu starts to decline , omanis occupy the city for a brief period but leave shortly after. Portuguese try to establish a stable presence in Mogadishu, Barawe and Merca but fail.
-17th century Mogadishu is captured by Hawiyes who defeated the Ajuuraan in the interior and the muzzafar(arabized somali dinasty?).
-From the late 17th century the city started to become even more somalized and arabs(cadcads) lost most of their power.
-17th century An ottoman explorer Evliya Celebis(died in 1682) describes Mogadishu as a city of merchants with a strong nomadic carachter.He describes the people as practicing muslims who speak arabic and a strange local dialect(af somali),
-18th century, Hawiyes become imams of the city but arabs are still allowed to nominate Qadi. Present day benadiri clans change their arabic names to somali ones.
It's pretty unique because arabs in most cases in Africa arabs arabize locals , but in this case arabs have been somalised.
- mid 19th century Omanis from Zanzibar start to get interested in the city which is ruled by then and the Geledi Somalis untill the arrival of the italians.
The rest is recent history.

My conclusion is that Mogadishu was a somali settlement, when arabs arrived in the 9th century they developed the city together with locals and they formed a unique somali arabised(muslim) city. The city hosted many different ethnicities mainly somali, arabs and mixed arab-somalis. By the 16th -17th century Xamar declined after being bombed by the portoguese, nomadic hawiye somalis conquered the city from the muzzafar and ruled it untill the mid 19th century when Omanis established garrison there.

Just a few corrections.

Ibn Sa'id also mentions the Benadir coast being predominantly inhabited by Somalis with Arab, Persian and Indian merchants living in these towns.

According to Ibn Battuta who was a medieval scholar and traveller who visited Mogadishu and the Benadir coast confirmed they were neither Arab or Persian enclaves but largely African towns that were dominated and ruled by the native dark skin Africans that spoke their own native African tongue (Somali).

Sultan of Mogadishu, Abu Bakr, who built mosques and welcomed Ibn Battuta himself, who would describe the inhabitants as "dark skinned Berbers", aka Somalis. Also, note that he claimed the Sultan was of darker complexion and spoke in his native tongue? If he was actually Arab then Ibn Battuta wouldn't mention this.

Ajuran Sultanate rule still continued till the late 17th century and Mogadishu was still under their control until Hawiye overthrew them, established the Hiraab Imamate with Mogadishu being their capital a seat for Yaquub Dynasty. Omanis only arrived in the late 1800's after the collapse of Hiraab Sultanate due to tribal in-fighting but Mogadishu was actually independent just economically dependent on Geledi Sultanate. Zanzibar only established a Garrison under the permission of Sultan Ahmed Yusuf Gobroon.

 

[Octavian]

Just a few corrections.

Ibn Sa'id also mentions the Benadir coast being predominantly inhabited by Somalis with Arab, Persian and Indian immigrants living in these towns.

View attachment 142461

According to Ibn Battuta who was a medieval scholar and traveller who visited Mogadishu and the Benadir coast confirmed they were neither Arab or Persian enclaves but largely African towns that were dominated and ruled by the native dark skin Africans that spoke their own native African tongue.

View attachment 142463


Sultan of Mogadishu, Abu Bakr, who built mosques and welcomed Ibn Battuta himself, who would describe the inhabitants as "dark skinned Berbers", aka Somalis. Also, note that he claimed the Sultan was of darker complexion and spoke his in native tongue. If he was actually Arab then Ibn Battuta wouldn't mention this.

View attachment 142469

Ajuran Sultanate rule still continued till the late 17th century and Mogadishu was still under their control until Hawiye overthrew them, established the Hiraab Imamate with Mogadishu being their capital a seat for Yaquub Dynasty. Omanis only arrived in the late 1800's after the collapse of Hiraab Sultanate due to tribal in-fighting but Mogadishu was actually independent just economically dependent on Geledi Sultanate. Zanzibar only established a Garrison under the permission of Sultan Ahmed Yusuf Gobroon.

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what happened to the persians that settled in the benadir coast ?

 

[Factz]

what happened to the persians that settled in the benadir coast ?

Benadiri have sub-clans of Arab origin, Persian origin, Indian origin and I heard there is one with Turkish origin but Benadiri also have sub-clans with Somali origin (Ajuran, ancient Rahanweyn and medieval Hawiye clans).

Nothing happened to them they just integrated into the Somali society and became one of us. They adopted our language and culture and played a prominent role in Islam.

 

[Factz]

@Som Zeila in the north was equal to Mogadishu that served as the capital for both Ifat & Adal Sultanates. It was a large multi-cultural city, a major trade hub and an Islamic center.

According to Ibn Sa'id just like he said the Benadir coast was predominantly Somali. He also said Zeila was predominantly inhabited by Somalis.

According to Ibn Battuta just like he said with Mogadishu being mostly blacks. He also confirmed the inhabitants of Zeila were mostly blacks that follow Shafi'i school. We Somalis follow the Shafi'i school.

 

[Som]

@Som Zeila in the north was equal to Mogadishu that served as the capital for Ifat & Adal Sultanates. It was a large multi-cultural city, a major trade hub and an Islamic center.

Ibn Sa'id just like he said the Benadir coast was predominantly Somali. He also said Zeila was predominantly inhabited by Somalis.

View attachment 142476

According to Ibn Battuta just like he said with Mogadishu was also mostly inhabited by blacks.

View attachment 142477

Interesting. Zeila and Xamar are basically twins on opposite sides of the somali peninsula.
Let me ask you another question that I still can't answer
What about the shia and the christians?
I can't remember the exact quote but i read that Zeila was under the influence of abyssinian christians (there is also evidence of christian burials in Somaliland according to sada mire) in the 10th century and there are also a few quotes rafidi (shias) in Zeila. Al masudi described the city as christian in majority with a muslim minority.Are you familiar with this? Is it possible some somalis were christian or shia at some point? Sada Mire's book seems to suggest that What's your opinion?

 

[Grant]

So you are guessing.
Let's look at the source. Ibn battuta says the sultan was a barbar. If he was an arab why not say he was arab? Half arabs were considered arabs as you point out so why not mentioning this?
This is the quote by ibn battuta
CONCERNING THE SULTAN OF MOGADISHU
As we have said, the Sultan of Mogadishu is called Shaikh by his subjects. His name is Abu Bark ibn Shaikh Omar, and by race he is a Berber.(huwa fi'l-asl min al-Barbara). He talks in the language of Mogadishu but knows Arabic.

be honest for once, every thing in tbis description indicates that the sultan was NOT arab. Even Cerulli guessed he wasn't arab and proposed he spoke either sonali or a local language

Kindly don't insult my honesty. We don't know what Ibn Batuta was told, or how many generations passed from the original Sultan to the man Batutta met. He could have looked like a light Barbar, or possibly not even light. For sure Batutta mistook the court titles and ritual for Somali, when they clearly were not.

Scott Reese, Renewers of the age, as above, p. 42-44:

According to a manuscript given by the Banu Qahtan to Cerulli and recorded by him, prior to the 13th century Mogadishu was ruled by a council drawn from 39 lineages of the town and headed by four notables known as the arba 'a rukn. This was supplanted by an hereditary dynasty founded by a foreign merchant sometime during the 13th century with the help of the hereditary ulama. According to the story, Abu Bakr was a stranger with no wealth of his own.

This is translated from the Arabic and has some transcription errors from the printers. Still, I think it makes the point.

"He did, however, have a wealthy wife who was the daughter of Shaykh 'Abd al-Jabbar {a local notable}. One day, a poor man came to the Friday mosque reciting verses from the Qur'an and asking for alms. But no one gave anything. Then { two prominent members of the Ulama} Shaykh al-Hajj Husayn and Shaykh al-Hajj Musa arrived {and asked for alms on the man's behalf} But still, no one offered them anything and they were saddened by such stinginess. Abu Bakr Fakhr al-Din {saw this and} promised the Shaykhs a hundred dirhams even though he didn't have them; they were happy with this and blessed him...."

"Fakhr al-Din went home distraught, as he had no way to give the shaykhs what he had promised except by borrowing it from his wife, which would mean his utter humiliation. That night, however, divine providence lent a hand. While washing his master's clothes along the seashore, one of Fakhr al-Din's slaves discovered a massive block of ambergris that his master was able to sell at an enormous profit. Literally overnight this boon, interpreted as a sign of God's pleasure with his act of generosity in the mosque, made Fakhr al-Din one of the wealthiest and most powerful individuals in town."

"Eventually, according to the story, the elders of the town met and agreed to appoint Fakhr al-Din sultan based on his pious reputation as well as his wealth. Others among the local lineages objected, each arguing that they were more deserving of {leadership} than this stranger. "How is he to be sultan over we who have had no sultan in three hundred years?" They then declared, "If we are to invest one {as sultan} it should be the Banu Qahtan, who are more worthy of it as they are our qadis and khatibs." Other elements of the learned class agreed, admonishing the elders that Fakhr al-Din was "a stranger," whom they should "abandon so that he does not bring pride upon us." The impasse was only broken when the Banu Qahtan demurred from assuming political power and threw their support behind Fakhr al-Din instead. In return they received a monopoly over the positions of qadi and khatib (preacher in the Friday mosque) in perpetuity."

This created both the sultanate and the Reer Faqi.

Please don't try to tell me the 39 lineages of the council were Samaale. Same for the foreign merchant.

 

[Factz]

Interesting. Zeila and Xamar are basically twins on opposite sides of the somali peninsula.
Let me ask you another question that I still can't answer
What about the shia and the christians?
I can't remember the exact quote but i read that Zeila was under the influence of abyssinian christians (there is also evidence of christian burials in Somaliland according to sada mire) in the 10th century and there are also a few quotes rafidi (shias) in Zeila. Al masudi described the city as christian in majority with a muslim minority.Are you familiar with this? Is it possible some somalis were christian or shia at some point? Sada Mire's book seems to suggest that What's your opinion?

There were a Shia community in Zeila but they were mostly Persians and during the antiquity period in northern Somalia there was a Christian influence from the neighbouring Axumites and a small Jewish influence from Himyarites while southern Somalia managed to retain their traditional beliefs (waaq).

Ah, yes, Al masudi I read about that but here is where people get mixed up. Zeila was also considered a region because it served as a major port that exported goods from the Ethiopian highlands and lowlands from Afar to Hawd. "The country of Zeila" also composed of Christian regions despite not being a single polity.

But Al-Yaqubi who also came from the 9th century confirmed Zeila was an Islamic city and mentioned "Adal kingdom" this suggests the Adalites dated back even in the 9th century.

Before the formation of Ifat Sultanate. This was Adal kingdom in the 9th century.

 

[Som]

Kindly don't insult my honesty. We don't know what Ibn Batuta was told, or how many generations passed from the original Sultan to the man Batutta met. He could have looked like a light Barbar, or possibly not even light. For sure Batutta mistook the court titles and ritual for Somali, when they clearly were not.

Scott Reese, Renewers of the age, as above, p. 42-44:

According to a manuscript given by the Banu Qahtan to Cerulli and recorded by him, prior to the 13th century Mogadishu was ruled by a council drawn from 39 lineages of the town and headed by four notables known as the arba 'a rukn. This was supplanted by an hereditary dynasty founded by a foreign merchant sometime during the 13th century with the help of the hereditary ulama. According to the story, Abu Bakr was a stranger with no wealth of his own.

This is translated from the Arabic and has some transcription errors from the printers. Still, I think it makes the point.

"He did, however, have a wealthy wife who was the daughter of Shaykh 'Abd al-Jabbar {a local notable}. One day, a poor man came to the Friday mosque reciting verses from the Qur'an and asking for alms. But no one gave anything. Then { two prominent members of the Ulama} Shaykh al-Hajj Husayn and Shaykh al-Hajj Musa arrived {and asked for alms on the man's behalf} But still, no one offered them anything and they were saddened by such stinginess. Abu Bakr Fakhr al-Din {saw this and} promised the Shaykhs a hundred dirhams even though he didn't have them; they were happy with this and blessed him...."

"Fakhr al-Din went home distraught, as he had no way to give the shaykhs what he had promised except by borrowing it from his wife, which would mean his utter humiliation. That night, however, divine providence lent a hand. While washing his master's clothes along the seashore, one of Fakhr al-Din's slaves discovered a massive block of ambergris that his master was able to sell at an enormous profit. Literally overnight this ****, interpreted as a sign of God's pleasure with his act of generosity in the mosque, made Fakhr al-Din one of the wealthiest and most powerful individuals in town."

"Eventually, according to the story, the elders of the town met and agreed to appoint Fakhr al-Din sultan based on his pious reputation as well as his wealth. Others among the local lineages objected, each arguing that they were more deserving of {leadership} than this stranger. "How is he to be sultan over we who have had no sultan in three hundred years?" They then declared, "If we are to invest one {as sultan} it should be the Banu Qahtan, who are more worthy of it as they are our qadis and khatibs." Other elements of the learned class agreed, admonishing the elders that Fakhr al-Din was "a stranger," whom they should "abandon so that he does not bring pride upon us." The impasse was only broken when the Banu Qahtan demurred from assuming political power and threw their support behind Fakhr al-Din instead. In return they received a monopoly over the positions of qadi and khatib (preacher in the Friday mosque) in perpetuity."

This created both the sultanate and the Reer Faqi.

Please don't try to tell me the 39 lineages of the council were Samaale. Same for the foreign merchant.

Honestly, I'm open to all opinions but you are completely ruling out that the barbar sultan was a somali when everything from ibn battuta writings and historians interpretation point to that direction. Ibn battuta met with a black non arab sultan, at least let's agree on that. You are litteraly disputing ibn battuta account because it contradicts your idea.
Barbar was a term used for horn africans , why call him barbar if the dude was arab? Ibn battuta and other arab historians usually make a difference between arab and non arab muslims

 

[Grant]

Honestly, I'm open to all opinions but you are completely ruling out that the barbar sultan was a somali when everything from ibn battuta writings and historians interpretation point to that direction. Ibn battuta met with a black non arab sultan, at least let's agree on that. You are litte
disputing ibn battuta account because it contradicts your idea.
Barbar was a term used for horn africans , why call him barbar if the dude was arab? Ibn battuta and other arab historians usually make a difference between arab and non arab muslims

In my opinion, the Reer Faqi were in a far better position to describe the situation than was Ibn Batutta, who was definitely talking about Arab court titles and ritual and could have made other errors of interpretation. The dynasty was founded in 1269, well into the period of clan formation, and it lasted roughly 330 years. What clan has bragging rights? Where are the collateral lineages?

You are disputing the Reer Faqi, who make much more sense and have much more history behind them than Ibn Batutta. If the dynasty were Samaaale, what happened to them?

 

[Som]

In my opinion, the Reer Faqi were in a far better position to describe the situation than was Ibn Batutta, who was definitely talking about Arab court titles and ritual and could have made other errors of interpretation. The dynasty was founded in 1269, well into the period of clan formation, and it lasted roughly 330 years. What clan has bragging rights? Where are the collateral lineages?

You are disputing the Reer Faqi, who make much more sense and have much more history behind them than Ibn Batutta. If the dynasty were Samaaale, what happened to them?

I never said the dinasty was samaale. Bro, you are knowledgeable but you miss many points because you have an agenda. I simply said that the Sultan who met ibn battuta was a non-arab somali. This doesn't disprove rer faqi's aeab ancestry, muslim dinasty were open to rulers from different backgrounds. Even today Reer Faqi are heavily somalized fo the point that many benadiris look almost 100% somali . How can an arab dinasty be assimilated by a nomadic population? It's pretty obvious that somalis came in contact with arab settelers and ruled with them as muslims.

 

[Som]

In my opinion, the Reer Faqi were in a far better position to describe the situation than was Ibn Batutta, who was definitely talking about Arab court titles and ritual and could have made other errors of interpretation. The dynasty was founded in 1269, well into the period of clan formation, and it lasted roughly 330 years. What clan has bragging rights? Where are the collateral lineages?

You are disputing the Reer Faqi, who make much more sense and have much more history behind them than Ibn Batutta. If the dynasty were Samaaale, what happened to them?

Anyway ibn battuta was a light skinned arabized berber. I'm pretty sure he was able to recognize an arab if he saw one.
I'm wondering why you keep dismissing Somalis from the picture, most of your post have interesting sources but it seems you want to claim that somalis played no role in mogadishu or any other important somali Kingdom (adal for example) this is historically incorrect and it's shows an anti somali bias.

 

[Factz]

Anyway ibn battuta was a light skinned arabized berber. I'm pretty sure he was able to recognize an arab if he saw one.
I'm wondering why you keep dismissing Somalis from the picture, most of your post have interesting sources but it seems you want to claim that somalis played no role in mogadishu or any other important somali Kingdom (adal for example) this is historically incorrect and it's shows an anti somali bias.

Interestingly enough Ibn Battuta records are not rocket science. He distinguished Arabs from Somalis. He referred Somalis from Zeila to Mogadishu as Bilad Al-Berber a medieval term to describe the Somali population from that region. He mentioned the Sultan of Mogadishu was of darker skin complexion and spoke in his native tongue but knew Arabic. If he was Arab why would Ibn Battuta distinguish his native tongue with Arabic? He also mentioned the demographics of the Benadir ports being largely black African towns so to deny any of his words are pure dishonesty that is why every historian agrees the Sultan of Mogadishu was of Somali origin as it's mentioned in various of books. Somalis have historically also followed the Arab court system like the Ajurans for example so it's nothing unusual.

But that doesn't interest me as many travellers before him mentioned the same thing. The best part is when he mentioned the Sultan of Mogadishu originated from Berbera further proving he was no doubt a Somali.

Here is what Ibn Battuta said about Berbera. Also, note that the word "negro" in Spanish simply means black so the Sultan of Mogadishu who Ibn Battuta spoke to originated from this town.

According to the tradition of Ajuran. The Balad's ancestor originated from Berbera and they migrated to the fertile plains of Shabelle in now known as the Somali region of Ethiopia. They founded a city there called Qelafo and established a kingdom in 1251. They conquered Mogadishu in 1274 and made Merka their seat of power in 1285 so are you seeing the correlation?

 

[Grant]

Anyway ibn battuta was a light skinned arabized berber. I'm pretty sure he was able to recognize an arab if he saw one.
I'm wondering why you keep dismissing Somalis from the picture, most of your post have interesting sources but it seems you want to claim that somalis played no role in mogadishu or any other important somali Kingdom (adal for example) this is historically incorrect and it's shows an anti somali bias.

I am glad to see a more rational voice here on the forum. Hyper patriots like Facts would have Samaales sailing ships and establishing a colony in Sofala centuries before the clans even formed. Claiming commercial empires in the Indian ocean while your ports are being blockaded and all you can put to sea are rudderless inshore boats is just silly.

The first mention of a Somali ethnicity is only 15th century. Few Somali abtirses are even a thousand years old. Per 23andme I am as b1b1b as you are, but my ancestors left Africa 20,000 years ago. V32 comes from the Sudan. T1a is also not native. On the basis of linguistics, Christopher Ehret places both Maay and Maxaa Somalis and camels in the Afgoi area only in the 5th century AD. So don't get any ideas of ancient Samaale habitation in the Horn.

My book collection relates mostly to the South. I know little about the North and stay generally out of those discussions. I try to go where the evidence leads, and I repeat my questions to you. If Fakhr al-Din was a Somali, what clan was he and where are his descendants?
My inclination is to believe the Reer Faqi , who were there at the beginning and claimed for centuries prerogatives based on their initial decision and support.

I do not believe Ibn Batutta's rendition of what he saw. The court titles and ritual are NOT Somali. Whichever it is, I also doubt the Berbera, Barbara thing. There is another story that says he was one of four brothers who came from the Hejaz.