Were the Fakr al Din and Muzaffar dynasties Somali or Arab/Persian

[Factz]

Total BS and misdirection. Everybody's information on Mir Ali Bey is from the Portuguese archives, which is Welch, and which you have clearly not read. The Turkish expedition is a fantasy from Baadiyow, where he confused Mir Ali in the 1580s with Suleiman the Magnificent in the 1560s. {https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_expedition_to_Aceh} Mir Ali made one trip to Muscat, one to Lamu and one to Mombassa, where he and all his ships and men were captured by the Portuguese. Mir Ali died a Catholic in Lisbon.

You can't find a single shipyard, let alone a navy. Your comments on Welch are just bizarre. The book only goes to 1640. The Somali ports were entrepots. They had pangaios (lighters), but not their own ships.

Go actually read Batutta, Welch, Menkhaus and Luling. It will give you a whole new vision of the reality of that period. What little you have now is just waaaaayyy off base.

Terrible response. You didn't dismiss any of my sources. You just spewed garbage.

Firstly, Abdurahman Abdullahi Baadiyow is a credible source when it comes to Somali history far better than Luling and Menkhaus. He is also specialized in Ajuran history as other historians barely go in full details as him. He didn't confuse Mir Ali in the 1580s with Suleiman the Magnificent in the 1560s. That just proves you didn't read his book. Mir Ali Bey attacked the Swahili coast and Ajuran aided him.

Stop running away. You claimed Mogadishu were not ruled by Somalis and Mogadishu boats that helped Mir Ali Bey were not maned by Somalis but here we have Welch refuting your falsehood.

There is a whole Ottoman archive talking about Mir Ali Bey legacy in the Indian Ocean. His Turkish fleet and allies liberated the Swahili coast from Portuguese rule. However, the Portuguese armada managed to re-take most of the lost cities and began punishing their leaders, but they refrained from attacking Ajuran ports, securing the kingdom's autonomy in the Indian Ocean. What happened to Mir Ali bey in the end doesn't matter because everyone knows Portuguese re-established their control in the Swahili coast.

I think you should read Ibn Battuta records when he talked about the demographics of the Benadir coast.

Go read some more: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ROZs6lqW9RYC&pg=PA124&dq=were+neither+arab+or+persian+enclaves+largely+inhabited+by+african+descent&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJi6PYwIzsAhVlR0EAHYZjDQcQ6AEwAHoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=were neither arab or persian enclaves largely inhabited by african descent&f=false

Welch, Ibn Sa'id and Ibn Battuta all described Mogadishu being a Somali city, not an Arab/Persian enclave. That is the key of this discussion so if you're an honest human being. Accept you were wrong and end your ridiculous revisionism.

 

[Grant]

Terrible response. You didn't dismiss any of my sources. You just spewed garbage.

Firstly, Abdurahman Abdullahi Baadiyow is a credible source when it comes to Somali history far better than Luling and Menkhaus. He also specialized in Ajuran history as other historians barely go in full details as him. He didn't confuse Mir Ali in the 1580s with Suleiman the Magnificent in the 1560s. That just proves you didn't read his book. Mir Ali Bey attacked the Swahili coast and Ajuran aided him.

Stop running away. You claimed Mogadishu were not ruled by Somalis and Mogadishu boats that helped Mir Ali Bey were not maned by Somalis but here we have Welch refuting your falsehood.

There is a whole Ottoman archive talking about Mir Ali Bey legacy in the Indian Ocean. His Turkish fleet and allies liberated the Swahili coast from Portuguese rule. However, the Portuguese armada managed to re-take most of the lost cities and began punishing their leaders, but they refrained from attacking Ajuran ports, securing the kingdom's autonomy in the Indian Ocean. What happened to Mir Ali bey in the end doesn't matter because everyone knows Portuguese re-established their control in the Swahili coast.

I think you should read Ibn Battuta records when he talked about the demographics of the Benadir coast.

View attachment 143319

Go read some more: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ROZs6lqW9RYC&pg=PA124&dq=were+neither+arab+or+persian+enclaves+largely+inhabited+by+african+descent&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJi6PYwIzsAhVlR0EAHYZjDQcQ6AEwAHoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=were neither arab or persian enclaves largely inhabited by african descent&f=false

Welch, Ibn Sa'id and Ibn Battuta all describe Mogadishu being a Somali city, not an Arab/Persian enclave. That is the key of this discussion so if you're an honest human being. Accept you were wrong.

Baadiyow is an embarrassment to his school and not a credible source. Besides confusing Mir Ali Bey with Suleiman the Magnificent, he says the Periplus was written by the Red Sea, etc, etc, etc.
Utterly useless. I specifically asked you not to use him.

Somali is not Samaale, is not Ajuraan. You conflate and confuse.

The Portuguese archive says Ottoman influence in the Indian Ocean ends with Mir Ali's capture at Mombassa. His second African trip only lasted three months. If you have an Ottoman archive, let's see it.

Read the original Ibn Batuta. I gave you a copy above. Lay off the secondary stuff.

If you had actually read Welch you would have quotes and a totally different perspective. You haven't read Luling or Menkhaus either and you are just making stuff up.

I know a short pier you need to take a long walk on...... You are just wasting everybody's time.

 

[Factz]

Baadiyow is an embarrassment to his school and not a credible source. Besides confusing Mir Ali Bey with Suleiman the Magnificent, he says the Periplus was written by the Red Sea, etc, etc, etc.
Utterly useless. I specifically asked you not to use him.

Somali is not Samaale, is not Ajuraan. You conflate and confuse.

The Portuguese archive says Ottoman influence in the Indian Ocean ends with Mir Ali's capture at Mombassa. His second African trip only lasted three months. If you have an Ottoman archive, let's see it.

Read the original Ibn Batuta. I gave you a copy above. Lay off the secondary stuff.

If you had actually read Welch you would have quotes and a totally different perspective. You haven't read Luling or Menkhaus either and you are just making stuff up.

I know a short pier you need to take a long walk on...... You are just wasting everybody's time.

The most pathetic response I've seen so far. If anyone here is wasting anyone's time it's you because you have not responded to most of my sources proving to me you didn't have any answers and failed massively on discrediting few of these sources. It shows your agenda here but I will happily correct you.

What do you mean Samaale is not Somali? They're both the same thing. Stop playing mental gymnastics with me. You claimed Mogadishu was ruled by Arabs. If you were right Welch would've called them Arabs but he didn't. He said it was ruled by Somalis. Lay of the alcohol.

Slandering Baadiyow only proves how wrong you are which has you annoyed. Baadiyow is considered one of the most credible sources when it comes to Somali history whether you like it or not.

Luling is one of the worst sources I've checked out. According to the archeologists, Bantus reached Kenya in the 8th century while proto-Somalis have been living in South Somalia for 4 thousand years so for that book to suggest Bantus pre-dated Somali expansion is a major red flag and only proves why that book is not worth reading.

I suggest you don't bring up Luling again because it's not a credible source. It has too many errors.

This is the Ottoman archive. You were saying I made up stuff? Get real!

Excuse me about lay off the secondary stuff? Ross Dunn is the most credible interpreter of Ibn Battuta accounts. It is an authentic source when it comes to explaining the travel of Ibn Battuta and breaking it down for idiots like you to understand. All historians use his work when they talk about Ibn Battuta travels. Ross Dunn is a world class historian way bigger than any other historian you've mentioned.

For your information, I've read the original. Ross Dunn only quotes his original description then breaks it down, for example, when Ibn Battuta referred the Sultan of Mogadishu as ethnic Berber which was a medieval term to describe Somalis by Arab geographers. He brings in evidences too so I suggest you read it because I don't want you to go by your false theory and follow the correct perception which is agreed upon by all historians.

 

[Grant]

The most pathetic response I've seen so far. If anyone is wasting anyone's time it's you because you have not responded to a single source I've shown and you have ignored most of the them because you knew from there you lost the argument.

What do you mean Samaale is not Somali? They're both the same thing. Stop playing mental gymnastics with me. You claimed Mogadishu was ruled by Arabs. Welch said it was ruled by Somalis. Lay of the alcohol. You can't argue from there.

Slandering Baadiyow only proves how wrong you are which has you annoyed. Baadiyow is considered one of the most credible sources when it comes to Somali history whether you like it or not.

Luling is one of the worst sources I've checked out. According to the archeologists, Bantus reached Kenya in the 8th century while proto-Somalis have been living in South Somalia for 4 thousand years so for that book to suggest Bantus pre-dated Somali expansion is a major red flag and only proves why that book is not worth reading.

I suggest you don't bring up Luling again because it's not a credible source. It has too many errors.

This is the Ottoman archive. You were saying I made up stuff?

View attachment 143367

Excuse me about lay off the secondary stuff? Ross Dunn is the most credible interpreter of Ibn Battuta accounts. It is an authentic source when it comes to explaining the travel of Ibn Battuta and breaking it down for idiots like you to understand. All historians use his work when they talk about Ibn Battuta travels. Ross Dunn is a world class historian bigger than any other historian.

For your information I've read the original. Ross Dunn only quotes his original description then breaks it down when Ibn Battuta referred the Sultan of Mogadishu as Berber which was a medieval term to describe Somalis by Arab geographers. He brings in evidences too so I suggest you read it.

Somalis are inhabitants of Somalia, including Bantus, Benaadiris, Bajunis, Eile, etc. Samaales are the ethnic tribal folks who claim descent from Samaale. The Ajuraan are an Hawiyya offshoot you keep trying falsely to claim ruled Mogadishu.

Your Ottoman "archive" quote has no source and reads like one of your juvenile encyclopedias. I was hoping for the real thing.

Do you even have a copy of Luling? How about Menkhaus or any of the UN papers on the Minorities? Fyi: the Bantus that left somalia during the Samaale expansion settled in the Lamu peninsula and along the coast. They are several, but not all, of the Mijikenda peoples. Luling is the preeminent authority on the Geledi. Her chapter on slaves and slavery is a classic. You're missing out. Some time check out the Madow Aaytire subclan of the Geledi, the Macallin Cumar and the Sabti Cumar.

Menkhaus was the one that said the Bantus came before the Samaale expansion, which is the sequence almost everyone gives after the Hunter-Gatherers. Among many others, see Christopher Ehret in The Invention of Somalia edited by Ali Jimale Ahmed. Your "red flag" denial just shows your ignorance. The Bantus cleared the Shebelli plain so the Samaale pastoralists could graze their flocks and herds without tse-tse.

If you have read Ibn Batutta in the original you are certainly misrepresenting him. Som was right. The Shaykh did not say he was from Berbera.

Who considers Baadiyow a credible source? The author of the Periplus of the Red Sea is anonymous. Suleiman the Magnificent sent the expedition to Aceh in the 1860s. Mir Ali only made it three months on his second excursion down the coast in the 1880s, was captured and died a Catholic in Lisbon. Reread Baadiyow. Provided you have the background, you will find many more oopsies.

 

[Factz]

Somalis are inhabitants of Somalia, including Bantus, Benaadiris, Bajunis, Eile, etc. Samaales are the ethnic tribal folks who claim descent from Samaale. The Ajuraan are an Hawiyya offshoot you keep trying falsely to claim ruled Mogadishu.

Your Ottoman "archive" quote has no source and reads like one of your juvenile encyclopedias. I was hoping for the real thing.

Do you even have a copy of Luling? How about Menkhaus or any of the UN papers on the Minorities? Fyi: the Bantus that left somalia during the Samaale expansion settled in the Lamu peninsula and along the coast. They are several, but not all, of the Mijikenda peoples. Luling is the preeminent authority on the Geledi. Her chapter on slaves and slavery is a classic. You're missing out. Some time check out the madow Aaytire subclan of the Geledi, the Macallin Cumar and the Sabti Cumar.

Menkhaus was the one that said the Bantus came before the Samaale expansion, which is the sequence almost everyone gives after the Hunter-Gatherers. Among many others, see Christopher Ehret in The Invention of Somalia edited by Ali Jimale Ahmed. Your "red flag" denial just shows your ignorance. The Bantus cleared the Shebelli plain so the Samaale pastoralists could graze their flocks and herds without tse-tse.

If you have read Ibn Batutta in the original you are certainly misrepresenting him. Som was right. The Shaykh did not say he was from Berbera.

Who considers Baadiyow a credible source? The author of the Periplus of the Red Sea is anonymous. Suleiman the Magnificent sent the expedition to Aceh in the 1860s. Mir Ali only made it three months on his second excursion down the coast in the 1880s, was captured and died a Catholic in Lisbon. Reread Baadiyow. Provided you have the background, you will find many more oopsies.

Archeologist debunk Menkhaus and Luling misinformation. Khoisan's are not Bantus and they were driven out by ancient Cushites many thousand years ago. Bantus first migrated into Kenya in the 8th century. Bajunis are Swahilis that live around Lamu areas but they never predated proto-Somalis. The Bantus that live in the interior of southern Somalia are slave decedents. Far too many errors in those books that go against archeological evidences. They're not credible sources.

I have the book of Ibn Battuta. Who is misrepresenting him? Ross Dunn is a world class historian who has done the biggest study on Ibn Battuta records. All his works are authentic. If you disagree with his interpretation then clearly not only it shows how ignorant you are but how dishonest you are at the same time and to have both is a serious problem.

When you read the original description of Ibn Battuta. He said the ruler of Mogadishu was "Berber". I've shown you at least three medieval Arab geographers who referred to Somali people as Berber. Arabs were never referred as "Berbers". In fact, they also mentioned the Arab immigrants living on the coast and called them "Arab" to distinguish them from the local Berber majority. These collections were used by Ross Dunn. This proves Mogadishu along with the Benadir coast have historically been dominated by Somalis. You can stop your bullshit now.

I was checking what errors Abdurahman Abdullahi has as you suggested and you've pretty much lied. He said the author of the Periplus was a Greek explorer and it's true because according to the Romans. The Periplus, by an unknown Greco merchant living in Egypt in the first century A.D. Written by the Red Sea? Man you are dyslexic. That's not a person but a sea. The book is called Periplus of the Red Sea. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.


He never confused the timeline between Suleiman the Magnificent and Mir Ali Bey. He never said they did an expedition to Aceh. You're just making things up out of your ass. Now that is what you call misinterpreting.

When it comes to African history and Islamic history. The universities call upon Abdurahman Abdullahi to represent Somali history. That is how much of a big figure he is. He's one of the most credible historians when it comes to Somali history. I can't say the same for yours.

 

[Grant]

Archeologist debunk Menkhaus and Luling misinformation. Khoisan's are not Bantus and they were driven out by ancient Cushites many thousand years ago. Bantus first migrated into Kenya in the 8th century. Bajunis are Swahilis that live around Lamu areas but they never predated proto-Somalis. The Bantus that live in the interior of southern Somalia are slave decedents. Far too many errors in those books that go against archeological evidences. They're not credible sources.

I have the book of Ibn Battuta. Who is misrepresenting him? Ross Dunn is a world class historian who has done the biggest study on Ibn Battuta records. All his works are authentic. If you disagree with his interpretation then clearly not only it shows how ignorant you are but how dishonest you are at the same time and to have both is a serious problem.

When you read the original description of Ibn Battuta. He said the ruler of Mogadishu was "Berber". I've shown you at least three medieval Arab geographers who referred to Somali people as Berber. Arabs were never referred as "Berbers". In fact, they also mentioned the Arab immigrants living on the coast and called them "Arab" to distinguish them from the local Berber majority. These collections were used by Ross Dunn. This proves Mogadishu along with the Benadir coast have historically been dominated by Somalis. You can stop your bullshit now.

I was checking what errors Abdurahman Abdullahi has as you suggested and you've pretty much lied. He said the author of the Periplus was a Greek explorer and it's true because according to the Romans. The Periplus, by an unknown Greco merchant living in Egypt in the first century A.D. Written by the Red Sea? Man you are dyslexic. That's not a person but a sea. The book is called Periplus of the Red Sea. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.


He never confused the timeline between Suleiman the Magnificent and Mir Ali Bey. He never said they did an expedition to Aceh. You're just making things up out of your ass. Now that is what you call misinterpreting.

When it comes to African history and Islamic history. The universities call upon Abdurahman Abdullahi to represent Somali history. That is how much of a big figure he is. He's one of the most credible historians when it comes to Somali history. I can't say the same for yours.

Man are you confused.

 

[Factz]

Man are you confused.

Because you have no answers after being disproven. I still can't fathom after saying ridiculous stuff like "iT's sOmAli nOt sAmAaLe"

Like it makes any difference and Welch was very clear the rulers of Mogadishu weren't Arabs but Somalis. Tried to discredit Abdurahman Abdullahi who is one of the biggest Somali historians but massively failed because you were misinterpreting him.

Anyways, learn to accept information without being stubborn. Thank you for your worthless time.

 

[Diaspora ambassador]

Traditional accounts put the first Arab settlement of Mogadishu at around the second half of the 8th century of which 2 Arabic inscriptions in the town are attributed too. Although the height of influx occurred in the beginning of the 10th century when Arabs from al-Ahsa left their homeland in the Persian gulf and settled in Mogadishu for religious reasons. Eventually, this inspired many more Arab, but also Persian migrants to settle in Mogadishu which gave birth too the Mogadishu confederation of tribes up which ruled the city until the creation of the Mogadishu Sultanate by Sultan Fakhr-Ad-Din. Enrico Cerulli published many Arabic inscriptions of prominent Arab and Persian individuals from that time. There are 3 surviving structures from that era of which the Jami', Arba' Rukun and Fakhr ad-Din mosques. The Jami' mosque bears the inscription date 1238
Source cambridge history of africa.

This doesn't mean xamar is not a somali city, wallahi I'm not pushing propaganda.
If you bring me evidence that ethnic somalis founded Xamar I will retract my statements and apologize. Wallahi.

I have some new insides for you, the forgein settlements inside and around mogadishu, benadir and souther somalia are all in the style of their very own culture mixed with somali culture. This is how we got mixtures of peoples down south. This actually means the somali territories acted as sanctuaries for forgein groups of peoples.
Such as when the ajuran sultanate welcomed refugees from the fallen andalous kingdom. There are many with their very own identity mixed with somali culture and with their own twist on the somali language. A good example is the barawenese people they are somali but also mixed with forgein dna. They are just as nationalistic as any other somali.

 

[Diini23]

No bro. Sarapion was an ancient port city close to Mogadishu but it wasn't the same city
Modern day mogadishu was founded un the 8-9th century by a few arab clans. After a few years somalis started to enter the city . By the 14th century the rulers of xamar were somalis as ibn battuta suggests .
In the 17th century hawiye somalis conquered xamar from the mixed arab-somali , arabs were allowed some to still have some important positions in religion and judiciary system but they gradually lost their influence.
This is based on accounts of historians, there are many early arabic inscriptions that mention the arab clans that migrated to Mogadishu.
I'm not belittling our history, just being accurate.
Arabs founded medieval Xamar, we came over ans took the city .
I'm ready to accept any evidence that contradicts my claims.

Sources? I do find that notion very intuitive to be honest but I want to see the sources for my own reading comprehension

 

[Khaem]

Persians and Arabs had very detailed records during the period.

These people are yet to provide a single persian or arab source saying they founded or ruled anything in Somalia. No MENA people claim Somali states as theirs. Except some weird Omanis who claim they ruled Somali coast for a short time during the 1700s which is false. And even then no Omani claims they were the actual owners of any city or settlement in Banadir.

Our only sources for Arab or Persian rule in Somalia comes from orientalist British authors in the 20th century. These men, IM Lewis and Cerulli never provided any sources for their claims but it was accepted by Europeans.

This Arabisation of Muslim states in Africa by the Europeans also affected West africa, where french authors claimed that African Muslim medieval cities like Timbuktu were founded by arab tribes.

And now these idiotic claims made by Europeans in the 20th century have permanently stained Muslim African history and these claims are also pushed by other foreigners