What was the territorial extent of Axum

[kaahin13]

Afars are nomads but they are genetically closer to Amhara farmers than Somali people. There are also Somali farmers but I get what you mean bro/sis

It’s bro my guy lol. There was an interesting theory that dirs could be a somalized Cushitic people. I saw this one post on a diff site what do you think of his theory?

The origin story of the Darod clan, despite supposedly being about a Muslim saint, has clear Waqist themes often found in Ethiopia. Saint appears atop a sacred tree, local people give him a local daughter so he comes down, marries her and guides them. This is a common Waqist story and the "daughter" in this context is the daughter of the Dir clan chief. Darods, a clan rich in V32, according to oral tradition, intermarry with Dirs, a clan rich in T-M70, through the maternal line to become Somalis like them. I think what Somalis are recounting here is actually the Somalization of North-Central Somalia. Similar to Arabians with the "Adnan" & "Qahtan" story, Somalis probably have things assed backwards and the Somalized people are in fact Dir in this story and the Darod in this story are a representation of a people from further south and west in the Horn coming into North-Central Somali territories and bringing Proto-Coastal-Northern Somali with them. The prior inhabitants probably spoke some other form of Cushitic. I doubt it was that close to Saho-Afar like Ehret thinks cos I see no proof for this but I'm becoming somewhat convinced this more or less was the case

 

[mahamdov]

We are the oldest somalis out there how are we ever habeshas???
We beefed every tribe on our doorstep for millennia

There may be a relationship between Haplogroup T of Habshies and the Dir Somalis for this reason they may be

 

[Khaemwaset]

There may be a relationship between Haplogroup T of Habshies and the Dir Somalis for this reason they may be

We may have some vague genetic similarities since we Ciise border many other ethnicities and have had a long tradition of making our neighbours women our concubines but it's not enough to say we are related people's. Just some genetic overlapping here and there due to close proximity

 

[mahamdov]

We may have some vague genetic similarities since we Ciise border many other ethnicities and have had a long tradition of making our neighbours women our concubines but it's not enough to say we are related people's. Just some genetic overlapping here and there due to close proximity

Not just mixing, man. Zeila has been mentioned as being a Christian in the ninth century. And there is a great history shared between the northwest and Abyssinia. Literally, the situation was Once the Somalis dir rule the region and once again by the Abyssinians.

 

[Khaemwaset]

Not just mixing, man. Zeila has been mentioned as being a Christian in the ninth century. And there is a great history shared between the northwest and Abyssinia. Literally, the situation was Once the Somalis dir rule the region and once again by the Abyssinians.

Oh my family is coastal and has roots in Djibouti and Zelia so I didn't know that it used to be conquered by abyssinnians. At most I knew they sacked it a few times but never conquered.
I expect some mixing because we were a trading city but not too much

 

[kaahin13]

Oh my family is coastal and has roots in Djibouti and Zelia so I didn't know that it used to be conquered by abyssinnians. At most I knew they sacked it a few times but never conquered.
I expect some mixing because we were a trading city but not too much

Were cisse always in the vicinity of zeila or did you come from the east?

 

[Khaemwaset]

Were cisse always in the vicinity of zeila or did you come from the east?

I'm pretty sure we always lived generally around where we are today but I'm not an expert on somali history so you may need to ask someone else

 

[JackieBurkhart]

I'm pretty sure we always lived generally around where we are today but I'm not an expert on somali history so you may need to ask someone else

Lol, Somalis were never conquered by Ethiopians. Nor were we Christian. @Shimbiris, what do you think of this?

 

[Shimbiris]

Lol, Somalis were never conquered by Ethiopians. Nor were we Christian. @Shimbiris, what do you think of this?

Aksum had no rule into the Somali peninsula. Their extent was basically northern Ethiopia, the Eritrean coast, some of what is now Djibouti and parts of what are now Yemen and Northern Sudan only at certain points in their history. There is however evidence of contact such as Christian burials, ancient Ge'ez bibles, and strange old customs among some northwestern and galbeed Somalis as well as Oromos near the latter area where they visit Sufi shrines and draw crosses on their foreheads with residue from the shrine's plaster so there was clear influence and trade contact but no accounts or evidence of direct rule.

In the Periplus around the 1st Century CE it's made very clear the ports along the Somali coast are unruly and independent, each presided over by its individual chieftain so a clearly similar arrangement to the middle ages and early modern era with the Suldaans/Garaads/Ugaasaha.

 

[Odious Delirium]

Lol, Somalis were never conquered by Ethiopians. Nor were we Christian. @Shimbiris, what do you think of this?

Somalis were independent from the habashis however they were friendly/allies with the proto somalis. A somali historian I know Mohammad artan said that the actual war of the elephants had somali mercs join as reinforcements from zeila's ports they went across into Arabia and the Ethiopians also used the zeila to cross into Arabia during their conquest of Arabia. As for the somali mercy there is no info on wether they made it back to somalia best case scenario they got assimilated somewhere in Arabia since foreign mercs where heavily used in Arab clan warfare and they were assimilated into or even formed there own arab clans or worst case scenario they got wiped out by birds sent by Allah with the main Ethiopian force that marched on makkah.

 

[Maintainnnin]

Axum was probably much larger than what people are willing to accept on this site tbh. It ruled & subjugated tribes well into the Arabian peninsula at its peak under the rule of Abraha. We also know that it bordered all the way up to Roman Egypt during the reign of King Ezana.

There's a stelle during Ezana's rule which states the following: "Ezana, son of Ella Amida, king of the Aksumites, the Himyarites, Raeidan, the Ethiopians, the Sabaeans, Silei (Salhen), Tiyamo, the Beja and Kasou."

This notably also included the Kingdom of Rauso which is believed to be around the Hawd/Nugaal area. This well into the Somali peninsula.

Zeila was also a Axumite port during various times. It was most likely under Axumite control when the companions fled to the city & built the Masjid there.

 

[kaahin13]

Axum was probably much larger than what people are willing to accept on this site tbh. It ruled & subjugated tribes well into the Arabian peninsula at its peak under the rule of Abraha. We also know that it bordered all the way up to Roman Egypt during the reign of King Ezana.

There's a stelle during Ezana's rule which states the following: "Ezana, son of Ella Amida, king of the Aksumites, the Himyarites, Raeidan, the Ethiopians, the Sabaeans, Silei (Salhen), Tiyamo, the Beja and Kasou."

This notably also included the Kingdom of Rauso which is believed to be around the Hawd/Nugaal area. This well into the Somali peninsula.

Zeila was also a Axumite port during various times. It was most likely under Axumite control when the companions fled to the city & built the Masjid there.

aksumites mainly embellished what they controlled plus they preferred indirect rule so long as they got tribute. It’s funny how Habeshas constantly try to refute any Somali involvement in sophiscated statecraft whether it be Adal sultanate or others, yet there is more proof that the aksumite kingdom wasn’t even a habesha kingdom. I was reading how the nobles and high officials of Aksum lived in massive stone buildings yet the Abyssinians were living in mud huts and tents lmao. Massive civilizational decline does not happen unless some form of population replacement occurs

 

[Maintainnnin]

I was reading how the nobles and high officials of Aksum lived in massive stone buildings yet the Abyssinians were living in mud huts and tents lmao. Massive civilizational decline does not happen unless some form of population replacement occurs

The common people live in "mud huts" & primitive structures while the noble & powerful live in stone buildings/forts, you'd see this same thing with Somalis. This is a poor argument.

Can you guess the homes of the common people & of the high officials in this photo of Bosaso below?

aksumites mainly embellished what they controlled plus they preferred indirect rule so long as they got tribute.

In the middle ages when the Amharas took over with the Solomonic dynasty they relied on tribute & indirect rule. This wasn't always the case tho, for example, the Aksumites were driven out of Arabia because they lost a series of wars to the Sassanid Persians. They had an army of over 10,000 stationed across the Arabian peninsula & waged war with the Persians. This in no way can be classified as indirect rule.

It’s funny how Habeshas constantly try to refute any Somali involvement in sophiscated statecraft whether it be Adal sultanate or others, yet there is more proof that the aksumite kingdom wasn’t even a habesha kingdom.

The Ifat & Awdal Sultanates were governed by a Somali dynasty & at times ruled most of Ethiopia & Eritrea. For example, Ifat annexed & ruled Shewa for over 100 years before becoming a Abyssinian tributary. They deny this out of ethnic hubris & your doing the exact same thing when talking about the Axumite empire here tbh.


You don't need to downplay the achievements of other Horners out of ethnic hubris just because they also engage in the same behavior.

 

[Garaad diinle]

The common people live in "mud huts" & primitive structures while the noble & powerful live in stone buildings/forts, you'd see this same thing with Somalis. This is a poor argument.

Can you guess the homes of the common people & of the high officials in this photo of Bosaso below?
View attachment 265201


In the middle ages when the Amharas took over with the Solomonic dynasty they relied on tribute & indirect rule. This wasn't always the case tho, for example, the Aksumites were driven out of Arabia because they lost a series of wars to the Sassanid Persians. They had an army of over 10,000 stationed across the Arabian peninsula & waged war with the Persians. This in no way can be classified as indirect rule.

View attachment 265214


The Ifat & Awdal Sultanates were governed by a Somali dynasty & at times ruled most of Ethiopia & Eritrea. For example, Ifat annexed & ruled Shewa for over 100 years before becoming a Abyssinian tributary. They deny this out of ethnic hubris & your doing the exact same thing when talking about the Axumite empire here tbh.


You don't need to downplay the achievements of other Horners out of ethnic hubris just because they also engage in the same behavior.

It would be helpful if you can point us to some sort of evidence detailing their exact border from around that time. Is there perhaps an axumaite fort or camp found in southern eritrea or even somalia? Is there gee'z vocabularies found in the somali dialect in the north as opposed to the south that was free from any foreign rule? Is there some old oral stories or any semblance of knowledge about axumite presence in somalia? I know of no such source wither it's greek, roman or even arabic that recount axumaite presence in southern eritrea or even somalia.

 

[Maintainnnin]

It would be helpful if you can point us to some sort of evidence detailing their exact border from around that time. Is there perhaps an axumaite fort or camp found in southern eritrea or even somalia? Is there gee'z vocabularies found in the somali dialect in the north as opposed to the south that was free from any foreign rule? Is there some old oral stories or any semblance of knowledge about axumite presence in somalia? I know of no such source wither it's greek, roman or even arabic that recount axumaite presence in southern eritrea or even somalia.

Historical research in the horn is very limited. We can only go off bits & pieces of information for now. To give an example we only know the names of the successive rulers of the Mogadishu Sultanate because of coins they minted, without this their names would be lost to history.


Of the little information we have, we know that King Ezana had written in his stelle that he subdued & conquered the Kingdom/land of Rauso, this is comfortably in the Somali peninsula.

We also have a Byzantine source from the martyrology of martyrium an old manuscript written by a writer called Symeon the Metaphrast. It notes that in one of Axum's invasions of Southern Arabia under Emperor Kaleb, they conscripted Nubian, Beja & Somali mercenaries.

This along with evidence of Christian burials & practices in northern Somalia from the work of Sada Mire, it shows that there was definitely some cultural influence & maybe political influence as well.


There's also this guy who alludes to very Ethiopian Orthodox Christian like practices that were practiced during his adolescence. This jahil practice reinforces that there was once a Somali Christian community in the North.

 

[Garaad diinle]

Historical research in the horn is very limited. We can only go off bits & pieces of information for now. To give an example we only know the names of the successive rulers of the Mogadishu Sultanate because of coins they minted, without this their names would be lost to history.


Of the little information we have, we know that King Ezana had written in his stelle that he subdued & conquered the Kingdom/land of Rauso, this is comfortably in the Somali peninsula.
View attachment 265251

We also have a Byzantine source from the martyrology of martyrium an old manuscript written by a writer called Symeon the Metaphrast. It notes that in one of Axum's invasions of Southern Arabia under Emperor Kaleb, they conscripted Nubian, Beja & Somali mercenaries.
View attachment 265255


This along with evidence of Christian burials & practices in northern Somalia from the work of Sada Mire, it shows that there was definitely some cultural influence & maybe political influence as well.


There's also this guy who alludes to very Ethiopian Orthodox Christian like practices that were practiced during his adolescence. This jahil practice reinforces that there was once a Somali Christian community in the North.

Well walaal if historical research in the horn of africa is very limited anything we say is conjunction and mere speculation. How can we confidently say that the ezana tablet is not a boast an empty bravado by the axumite king? We need at the very least another outside source to confirm the claim. If anything the descendent of the axumite today are well known for their outrageous claims.

The presence of somali mercenaries is also known by the arabs and you could find reference to it in sirat ibn hashim. That being said the presence of somali mercenaries or berbers as they were called doesn't mean much. There were berber mercenaries in the kinda armies does that mean that kinda also ruled northern somali?

The presences of christians back then is no proof of any axumite rule. Does the presence of islam in somalia means yemeni ruled northern somali? In fact in the case of islam almost the whole of somalia in the 15th century were muslims does that mean that yemen ruled all of somalia? Socotra had orthodox christians community up until the 16th century does that mean axumite ruled socotra? Kerala in india had orthodox christians does that mean axumite ruled southern india?

At the very least the yemeni theory have somethings to go off of such as some letters writing by somalis in the 20th century appears to have a yemeni dialect in them, somalia and yemen follow the shafi' madhab and some somali not only claim to have come from yemen but also a lot of somalis would travel there for seeking knwoledge. Plus somali presence in yemen is well known and very old.

 

[Ibn Amer]

yet there is more proof that the aksumite kingdom wasn’t even a habesha kingdom.

There is absolutely no proof for this whatsoever, give it up its just pathetic at this point

 

[Ibn Amer]

Aksum had no rule into the Somali peninsula. Their extent was basically northern Ethiopia, the Eritrean coast, some of what is now Djibouti and parts of what are now Yemen and Northern Sudan only at certain points in their history. There is however evidence of contact such as Christian burials, ancient Ge'ez bibles, and strange old customs among some northwestern and galbeed Somalis as well as Oromos near the latter area where they visit Sufi shrines and draw crosses on their foreheads with residue from the shrine's plaster so there was clear influence and trade contact but no accounts or evidence of direct rule.

In the Periplus around the 1st Century CE it's made very clear the ports along the Somali coast are unruly and independent, each presided over by its individual chieftain so a clearly similar arrangement to the middle ages and early modern era with the Suldaans/Garaads/Ugaasaha.

"I subjugated the peoples of Rauso who live in the midst of incense-gathering Barbarians between great waterless plains, and I subjugated the people of Solate, whom I ordered to guard the coasts of the sea. All these people, enclosed by mighty mountains, I myself conquered in person in battle and brought them under my rule. I allowed them the use of all their lands in return for the payment of tribute. Many other peoples voluntarily subjected themselves to me by paying tribute…”

Incense gathering barbarians between great waterless plains could be a reference to Somalis, either way it says they were allowed to use their land as the please as long as they pay tribute, which was common whenever Habeshas conquered foreign land, they generally preferred to let the locals have a lot of autonomy under the condition they paid tribute.

 

[Shimbiris]

"I subjugated the peoples of Rauso who live in the midst of incense-gathering Barbarians between great waterless plains, and I subjugated the people of Solate, whom I ordered to guard the coasts of the sea. All these people, enclosed by mighty mountains, I myself conquered in person in battle and brought them under my rule. I allowed them the use of all their lands in return for the payment of tribute. Many other peoples voluntarily subjected themselves to me by paying tribute…”

Incense gathering barbarians between great waterless plains could be a reference to Somalis, either way it says they were allowed to use their land as the please as long as they pay tribute, which was common whenever Habeshas conquered foreign land, they generally preferred to let the locals have a lot of autonomy under the condition they paid tribute.

That's not Somali territory. I remember a guy who carefully read the accounts you're referencing while doing some reconstructions and I did too years ago. It seemed pretty apparent he was talking about the Eritrean and Djiboutian coasts at best.

 

[Ibn Amer]

That's not Somali territory. A remember a guy who carefully read the accounts you're referencing and I did too years, ago. It seemed pretty apparent he was talking about the Eritrean and Djiboutian coasts.

I never said it was 100% Somali territory I said it could be, there is nothing else in the specific text I referenced that gives any other details about where these "incense gathering barbarians" were exactly from so you can't just write it off as Eritrea or Djibouti.