What was the territorial extent of Axum

[Maintainnnin]

Well walaal if historical research in the horn of africa is very limited anything we say is conjunction and mere speculation. How can we confidently say that the ezana tablet is not a boast an empty bravado by the axumite king? We need at the very least another outside source to confirm the claim. If anything the descendent of the axumite today are well known for their outrageous claims.

The presence of somali mercenaries is also known by the arabs and you could find reference to it in sirat ibn hashim. That being said the presence of somali mercenaries or berbers as they were called doesn't mean much. There were berber mercenaries in the kinda armies does that mean that kinda also ruled northern somali?

The presences of christians back then is no proof of any axumite rule. Does the presence of islam in somalia means yemeni ruled northern somali? In fact in the case of islam almost the whole of somalia in the 15th century were muslims does that mean that yemen ruled all of somalia? Socotra had orthodox christians community up until the 16th century does that mean axumite ruled socotra? Kerala in india had orthodox christians does that mean axumite ruled southern india?

At the very least the yemeni theory have somethings to go off of such as some letters writing by somalis in the 20th century appears to have a yemeni dialect in them, somalia and yemen follow the shafi' madhab and some somali not only claim to have come from yemen but also a lot of somalis would travel there for seeking knwoledge. Plus somali presence in yemen is well known and very old.

I'll be frank bro, I'm not well researched when it comes to the topic of the Axumite kingdom, I'm just recalling bits & pieces of information I came across of it over the years. I don't have spare time to delve into further research of it either which is why I'm mostly linking wikipedia

There obviously needs to be more research to determine for sure that Axum governed Somali territories, and with such little information on the history of the horn in general the most we can do is speculate at the moment. I still think that it's likely Axum ruled parts of Somali territory during its peak which isn't anything to be ashamed about, we also ruled them during various periods, and have an illustrious history of own to be proud of.

there is more proof that the aksumite kingdom wasn’t even a habesha kingdom. I was reading how the nobles and high officials of Aksum lived in massive stone buildings yet the Abyssinians were living in mud huts and tents lmao. Massive civilizational decline does not happen unless some form of population replacement occurs

The only reason I even bothered getting into the topic is because I found the reasoning of the person above to be very cringe. His logic can also easily be turned against Somalis & makes us come off as jealous of other peoples history.

 

[Garaad diinle]

I'll be frank bro, I'm not well researched when it comes to the topic of the Axumite kingdom, I'm just recalling bits & pieces of information I came across of it over the years. I don't have spare time to delve into further research of it either which is why I'm mostly linking wikipedia

There obviously needs to be more research to determine for sure that Axum governed Somali territories, and with such little information on the history of the horn in general the most we can do is speculate at the moment. I still think that it's likely Axum ruled parts of Somali territory during its peak which isn't anything to be ashamed about, we also ruled them during various periods, and have an illustrious history of own to be proud of.

No matter walaal i myself don't know much about it either kkkkk. I don't mind getting in the occasional lively discussion where you'll find deferring opinions cause i often times than not come out learning something new from it.

 

[Shimbiris]

I never said it was 100% Somali territory I said it could be, there is nothing else in the specific text I referenced that gives any other details about where these "incense gathering barbarians" were exactly from so you can't just write it off as Eritrea or Djibouti.

If one reads the whole text, from what I remember, it paints a picture where it's pretty apparent these aren't nomads who are awfully far away from the northern highlands. They're seemingly nearby to Agaws and whatnot, for example. "incense gathering barbaroi" is nothing to really go on. That was semi-true everywhere from just south of Berenice to Xaafuun back then. And like I said, all other accounts make no mention of any Aksumite rule and the few we do have keep painting the "Barbaroi" of the Somali coast as independent of the Aksumites/Abyssinians. Even around the 6th century or so when I recall this Cosmas fellow writing about them.

 

[Ibn Amer]

We can say with certainity Aksum ruled over pretty much of all modern Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia probably not much further south than Lake Tana, Yemen and parts of Saudi Arabia bordering Yemen aswell as parts of the Hejaz, it would have looked something like this

Its possible that Aksum also conquered pretty much the rest of the Saudi Arabia Red Sea coast based on these texts:

And I sent a fleet and land forces against the Arabitae and Cinaedocolpitae who dwelt on the other side of the Red Sea, and having reduced the sovereigns of both, I imposed on them a land tribute and charged them to make travelling safe both by sea and by land. I thus subdued the whole coast from Leuce Come to the country of the Sabaeans.

Based on this then the terriotry of Aksum would look something like this:

Somaliland may have been part of Aksums territory buts that also speculative given the current information.

 

[kaahin13]

The common people live in "mud huts" & primitive structures while the noble & powerful live in stone buildings/forts, you'd see this same thing with Somalis. This is a poor argument.

Can you guess the homes of the common people & of the high officials in this photo of Bosaso below?
View attachment 265201


In the middle ages when the Amharas took over with the Solomonic dynasty they relied on tribute & indirect rule. This wasn't always the case tho, for example, the Aksumites were driven out of Arabia because they lost a series of wars to the Sassanid Persians. They had an army of over 10,000 stationed across the Arabian peninsula & waged war with the Persians. This in no way can be classified as indirect rule.

View attachment 265214


The Ifat & Awdal Sultanates were governed by a Somali dynasty & at times ruled most of Ethiopia & Eritrea. For example, Ifat annexed & ruled Shewa for over 100 years before becoming a Abyssinian tributary. They deny this out of ethnic hubris & your doing the exact same thing when talking about the Axumite empire here tbh.


You don't need to downplay the achievements of other Horners out of ethnic hubris just because they also engage in the same behavior.

lmao I was clearly trolling just wanted to see who would take the bait and turn into captain save a hoe. But since you took your time to respond in a serious way I have some things I'll need to add.

I was clearly referring to an equivalency between aksumite and abyssinian royals/nobles and not a comparison between lay people and aristocrats lol.

And yes the aksumites preferred (note the operative word here) to have rule indirectly, even the source you provided shows that. The aksumites went into yemen to depose the king and replace him with a christian Yemenite. So yes they preferred a satellite state but sht happens sometimes.

 

[Al hashimi]

We are the oldest somalis out there how are we ever habeshas???
We beefed every tribe on our doorstep for millennia

You have semitic habesha genes

 

[Internet Nomad]

I remember reading some where in the prime days of Axum they used to send delegations to Tokyo for trade. Yeah their borders expanded a lot during 34,000BC reaching upper Russia.Crazy how much they fell since.

 

[Cartan Boos]

cap, akzum had zero rule in somali peninsuls they tried to send 10,000 army to zeila and they disappeared and also somali mercenaries helped akzum colonize arabia, akzum was not just habesha it was diverse they had nilotics,cushitic kings

 

[Cartan Boos]

The common people live in "mud huts" & primitive structures while the noble & powerful live in stone buildings/forts, you'd see this same thing with Somalis. This is a poor argument.

Can you guess the homes of the common people & of the high officials in this photo of Bosaso below?
View attachment 265201


In the middle ages when the Amharas took over with the Solomonic dynasty they relied on tribute & indirect rule. This wasn't always the case tho, for example, the Aksumites were driven out of Arabia because they lost a series of wars to the Sassanid Persians. They had an army of over 10,000 stationed across the Arabian peninsula & waged war with the Persians. This in no way can be classified as indirect rule.

View attachment 265214


The Ifat & Awdal Sultanates were governed by a Somali dynasty & at times ruled most of Ethiopia & Eritrea. For example, Ifat annexed & ruled Shewa for over 100 years before becoming a Abyssinian tributary. They deny this out of ethnic hubris & your doing the exact same thing when talking about the Axumite empire here tbh.


You don't need to downplay the achievements of other Horners out of ethnic hubris just because they also engage in the same behavior.

i mean he's right, this is shewa kingdom even the king lived in huts

 

[Internet Nomad]

cap, akzum had zero rule in somali peninsuls they tried to send 10,000 army to zeila and they disappeared and also somali mercenaries helped akzum colonize arabia, akzum was not just habesha it was diverse they had nilotics,cushitic kings

Incorrect here is my source

 

[Cartan Boos]

There is absolutely no proof for this whatsoever, give it up its just pathetic at this point

tell that to the kunama king

 

[Ibn Amer]

tell that to the kunama king

There is literally not a shred of evidence to support this, the culture of Aksum shows affinities only to South Arabian and the local Cushitic culture, nothing at all with Nilo Saharans, Somalis on this forum work overtime to tear down Habeshas anyway they can its pretty pathetic if you ask me

 

[SuperBantuWeyne]

There is literally not a shred of evidence to support this, the culture of Aksum shows affinities only to South Arabian and the local Cushitic culture, nothing at all with Nilo Saharans, Somalis on this forum work overtime to tear down Habeshas anyway they can its pretty pathetic if you ask me

Kunamas litteraly live in Eritrea(was part of Aksum) and are known as the first inhabitants by their countrymen, they were definitely part of this. What you call cushitic culture is in itself influenced by nilo-saharans.

 

[Cartan Boos]

Kunamas litteraly live in Eritrea(was part of Aksum) and are known as the first inhabitants by their countrymen, they were definitely part of this. What you call cushitic culture is in itself influenced by nilo-saharans.

cap, yes they were part of akzum but their culture did not influence the cushitics, what cushitic about this culture, actually the other way around some kunama dress like cushitics, do u have no shame boy these lies are pethatic

 

[SuperBantuWeyne]

cap, yes they were part of akzum but their culture did not influence the cushitics, what cushitic about this culture, actually the other way around some kunama dress like cushitics, do u have no shame boy these lies are pethatic
View attachment 265652

So you think they didn't influence them while intermarrying and living with them? You should look for the definition of the word influence before arguing. They obviously influenced each others. Your mere photo, doesn't prove anything unlike my screenshots, have a good read

More broadly speaking, Sudanic/nilo-saharan
influence is embedded amongst every modern cushitic cultures. Early cushitic and Nilo-saharan speakers interacted since their first contact in southern Egypt/Northern Sudan all along the read sea to Ethiopia then once again when southern cushites ventured out of the Horn and met Nilotics in Kenya. Genetics also support this.
Here's something for you to read:
"According to Ehret, the religious beliefs of the proto-Cushites were a mixture of two distinct religious traditions. Probably as early as the seventh millennium BCE, the Cushites in parts of eastern Africa blended their traditional Afro-Asiatic religion with aspects of the religious tradition of their Sudanic neighbours. Specifically, they exchanged their belief in a clan deity with the Sudanic concept of "Divinity", expanding the use of the old Cushitic root for "sky" (waak'a) to also extend to "Divinity". However, they retained their older institution of a clan priest-chief (or *wap'er), with the *wap'er's religious duties now re-directed toward Divinity. The Cushites also retained the old Afrasian practice of ascribing unfortunate occurrences to maleficent spirits, but also sometimes viewed evil as Divine retribution"

https://www.amazon.com/Civilizations-Afr

ica-History-1800/dp/081392085X

 

[Cartan Boos]

So you think they didn't influence them while intermarrying and living with them? You should look for the definition of the word influence before arguing. They obviously influenced each others. Your mere photo, doesn't prove anything unlike my screenshots, have a good read
View attachment 265659

View attachment 265661


More broadly speaking, Sudanic/nilo-saharan
influence is embedded amongst every modern cushitic cultures. Early cushitic and Nilo-saharan speakers interacted since their first contact in southern Egypt/Northern Sudan all along the read sea to Ethiopia then once again when southern cushites ventured out of the Horn and met Nilotics in Kenya. Genetics also support this.
Here's something for you to read:
"According to Ehret, the religious beliefs of the proto-Cushites were a mixture of two distinct religious traditions. Probably as early as the seventh millennium BCE, the Cushites in parts of eastern Africa blended their traditional Afro-Asiatic religion with aspects of the religious tradition of their Sudanic neighbours. Specifically, they exchanged their belief in a clan deity with the Sudanic concept of "Divinity", expanding the use of the old Cushitic root for "sky" (waak'a) to also extend to "Divinity". However, they retained their older institution of a clan priest-chief (or *wap'er), with the *wap'er's religious duties now re-directed toward Divinity. The Cushites also retained the old Afrasian practice of ascribing unfortunate occurrences to maleficent spirits, but also sometimes viewed evil as Divine retribution"

https://www.amazon.com/Civilizations-Afr

ica-History-1800/dp/081392085X

kunama lived and mixed with habesha not cushitic and again u own articles proves me right this is just laughable, as for cushitic they were influenced by pre nilotic not the modern ones as they not the same, kunama are modern nilotics they haven't influence any cushitic group, this is pethatic boy, i think u meant kunama influenced habesha instead of cushitic

 

[SuperBantuWeyne]

kunama lived and mixed with habesha not cushitic and again u own articles proves me right this is just laughable, as for cushitic they were influenced by pre nilotic not the modern ones as they not the

same, kunama are modern nilotics they haven't influence any cushitic group, this is pethatic boy

I'm not the one who mentioned cushitics first, read the thread and respond to the other guy before coming for me. The habeshas you're talking about are mostly descendants of semitized cushites(Agaw, Saho...) who obviously retained a great part of their culture despite their language shift that's why the Ibn Amer mentioned "south arabian and local cushitic culture.
Language ≠ culture and heritage. Cushitic speakers like Saho and afars live to this day in the former Aksum geographical area,do you consider them habeshas? Kunama aren't technically Nilotics by the way, their language doesn't fall under the Nilotic subfamily, they belong to another Nilo-saharan branch boy.
Outside of this region it depends on the area,
several cushitic groups received continuous or additional Nilo-saharan influences: the Rendille with Samburu, Kenyan oromos with Maasai, Agaw or Oromo from the Benishangul-Gumuz region with the Gumuz and Berta, Beja with Nubians. ..

 

[Ibn Amer]

Kunamas litteraly live in Eritrea(was part of Aksum) and are known as the first inhabitants by their countrymen, they were definitely part of this. What you call cushitic culture is in itself influenced by nilo-saharans.

There is absolutely no evidence for Kunamas being part of Aksum, Afars live in Eritrea they weren't part of Aksum either whats your point? Oromos live in Ethiopia the weren't part of Aksum, your arguments make no sense.

When i say no Nilo Saharan influence I mean anything on top of whats already within Cushitic influence, I can't believe I have to explain that are you being dense on purpose?

Your mere photo, doesn't prove anything unlike my screenshots, have a good read

I can post alternative etymologies for half of those words which indicate they are of Ethio Semitic or Cushitic origin, either way no one knows for sure where these words come from.

You need to address why Habeshas genetically have no more Nilotic than any other population in the Horn. Given the fact that they lived amongst them according to you they should have extra Nilotic-related ancestry relative to other Horners associated with Kunamas which is not the case at all. Also where is the Kunama influence in Ethio-Semitic languages? Post the data showing this, if Kunamas lived amongst Habeshas then there should be some Kunama influence on a lingustic level too.

 

[Al hashimi]

This was their greatest extent. They reached Socotra and Somali lands south to central Arabia View attachment 264907

Source

 

[Ibn Amer]

Language ≠ culture and heritage. Cushitic speakers like Saho and afars live to this day in the former Aksum geographical area,do you consider them habeshas? Kunama aren't technically Nilotics by the way, their language doesn't fall under the Nilotic subfamily, they belong to another Nilo-saharan branch boy.

Your own source says Aksums territory was no further east than Adulis lol Afars are not Aksumites they were at best, conquered people who were under Aksum and paid tribute to the King, your just throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks you lack an actual coherent argument

The only people who can truly claim Aksum is Tigrinya/Tigray, Tigre, certain Agaws like the Bilen and maybe Saho and Amharas.

Any other tribe was either peripheral, conquered, or had nothing to do with it at all.