Which character is most responsible for Somalia's destruction?

[Liibaan]

Waar stfu in the previous page I showed you these people were bunch of criminals who killed innocent yet here you are still pushing the same bs propaganda they push.
Look at the meth guy on this thread he knows the truth yet he continues to lie.
No one fucking needs these people to begin with f*ck em

I am sorry that you feel way.

 

[paragon]

Waar stfu in the previous page I showed you these people were bunch of criminals who killed innocent yet here you are still pushing the same bs propaganda they push.
Look at the meth guy on this thread he knows the truth yet he continues to lie.
No one fucking needs these people to begin with f*ck em

Both you and that meth guy have the same problem. You are mutually denying what was done to other people by a crocked group that belonged to your clans. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. It's also a widespread Somali problem of covering for evil committed by individuals that belong to your group/affiliate.

 

[Freebandz]

Both you and that meth guy have the same problem. You are mutually denying what was done to other people by a crocked group that belonged to your clans. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. It's also a widespread Somali problem of covering for evil committed by individuals that belong to your group/affiliate.

1. I think you got me confused I have not denied barre killing people ever.
2. What am questioning is if it was wrong or not which I don't think it was
You can't use personal feeling to run a country you use logic reasoning
You people all like to question and judge from your high seat but never seem to bring a better alternative
So lets your the country leader and some group got to greedy and decided to rebel
Now lets say the same group were going around killing innocent civilians who had nothing to do with the government(which was what lead the army to move up north and to fight them) Now lets say these same criminals were occupying your second biggest town/city now add to the fact the people in that city were aiding these fugitives ex giving them a place to hide in there house when the army was trying to capture the city
The country economy at the time wasSo can you genius come up with a cost effective way of getting the job done without depleting the small resources we have Compared to guerrilla warfare bombing was the best logical choice at the time.
I will say thoe some innocent people probably did get killed in the bombing but thats what we call civilian casualty

 

[KingSlayer]

Why do I always miss these threads

 

[SomaliSpotter]

There is no one single person who can be said was responsible for the demise of Somalia. It was a mixture of many individuals, political/tribal groups and circumstances that led to the destruction of the country.

Many Somalis from all walks of life (and from different tribes and regions) agree that the trouble of Somalia started at the end of the Ethiopian-Somalia war (The Ogaden War) in 1977-78. The demoralization caused by the loss of the war, the economic toll of the war on the country and the subsequent enmity between the regime and some of the well known leaders of the national army (whereas some of them were arrested and sent to jail with all kinds of accusations, and others had to flee the country and seek political asylum overseas etc) were the beginning of the end. I think it was in early '80's when the opposition groups started to form in the country and from then things only got worse until shit hit the fan in late '80's when the government back then decided to attack Northern Somalia (current Somaliland) with war planes and ground troops. That stupid attack on Somali citizens (which is also one of the other reasons many Somalis believe was part of Somalia's failure as a state) resulted in heavy losses of life, after the guerrilla warfare of the anti-government militia's in that part of the country, led by SNM, was causing the government to lose control (I think we all know about that unfortunate, dark history of our past so I'll leave it there). So when the regime back then thought to have got the matter under control, opposition groups started to form in the South (USC, SPM, SDM, SSDF etc) and a last ditch-effort to "save the country" through a national dialogue (the so called 'Sulux' conference) failed. There was an infamous order (from Omar Arte Qalib I think, who I can't remember what role he had within the government in those last few days before the civil-war) that the national army should surrender their weapons to the new militia's and vacate their positions (or something along that line) on Radio Mogadishu. Starting from the end of December 1990 to January 1991, Somalia officially descended into a catastrophic civil-war which (to me) is still going on to this day almost a quarter of a century later. I even heard people who believed that Omar Arte's order that the national army should surrender their weapons to the militia's and vacate their positions was an orchestrated plan to have the country plunge into a civil-war (between him and Aideed etc). I was young at the time and I personally didn't hear it on the radio so I would consider that as a concocted story.

Now, many people have their own different reasons of who to hold responsible for the destruction of the country. Understandably, a lot of people would point the finger at MSB, since he was the president of the country at the time. Others would throw that responsibility on the back of the opposition groups in general. And others would argue, regardless of the initial events, it is the people of the South who are entirely responsible why the country has been in civil-war for this long. As I said early, everyone has their own different reasons, with their own versions of evidence to back them up with. To me, I can't say it is the responsibility of a single person or a single opposition group. I believe all the concerned parties had some legitimate grievances and reasons of doing what they did (whether it is the generals and colonels who fled the country for fear of their lives or freedoms, the ones who formed the opposition groups or the the ruling government itself as well). It was the culmination of many things that led to a boiling point and no one was ready for the explosion that followed.

It is long, messy and unfortunate chain of events that got us into the shit-hole we are in now and I am afraid, seeing how scattered and dismantled we are becoming time after time, the future is even more bleak.

Soomaaliya cidina uma maqna ceelna uma qodna.

 

[paragon]

1. I think you got me confused I have not denied barre killing people ever.
2. What am questioning is if it was wrong or not which I don't think it was
You can't use personal feeling to run a country you use logic reasoning
You people all like to question and judge from your high seat but never seem to bring a better alternative
So lets your the country leader and some group got to greedy and decided to rebel
Now lets say the same group were going around killing innocent civilians who had nothing to do with the government(which was what lead the army to move up north and to fight them) Now lets say these same criminals were occupying your second biggest town/city now add to the fact the people in that city were aiding these fugitives ex giving them a place to hide in there house when the army was trying to capture the city
The country economy at the time wasSo can you genius come up with a cost effective way of getting the job done without depleting the small resources we have Compared to guerrilla warfare bombing was the best logical choice at the time.
I will say thoe some innocent people probably did get killed in the bombing but thats what we call civilian casualty

Say what you will. Barre had some fatal flaws himself and he's partly to blame for the formation of the rebel group, SNM. Since it was he that settled Ogaden refugees on the land of Issaq people, where the government encouraged them to dispossess them of their land. And it's well established that the regime targeted their clan, just like they did to the MJ. The only difference is he gave them the port of Bossaso. He did nothing to placate other groups. Better yet he agitated them. You still can't deny that innocent people were tortured because of their tribe as a consequence which was a form of collective punishment, even for noncombant civilians, which only fueled hatred for the regime and increased support for rebel groups. Although I don't think SNM were saints. I still can't justify the killing of all Issaq. I also think they are at fault for targeting innocent Gadabursi. In any case, who's fault was it for Ethiopia bombing Borama, and getting into debt to begin with - the regime.They made many and missteps. That really caused some wounds which probably won't heal. Hence, a deep reluctance for reconciliation and one of the drivers for self-determination. You also can't lie that Barre was a nepotist, like your typical Somali but he went overboard with it. Bandit did you're family gain any perks because they were a favored sub-clan? I'm trying to account for confirmation bias (interpreting information based on your own perception). You claim to be on the side of reason but judging by your comments I can tell there is some resentment there. Had it been your clan this happened to I doubt you'd write them off as civilian casualties.

 

[SuldaanMethylamine]

You know man just shut the f*ck up

http://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6ad8e24.html
This is talking about when your criminals fighting the regime forces in north somalia

http://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6a8544.html
don't come to me again unless you have proof to back up your shitty claim

Ok I'm not gonna lie you came back with a solid counterargument. I thought about going through all the sources this paper cited, but realized it served no purpose.

To me personally I think this paper makes some very strong claims; but not being there at the time I can neither confirm nor deny it.

If indeed what is said in the paper is true, then I admit that I was wrong in saying that SNM is completely devoid of any wrongdoing. I would like @Solid and @RoobleAlWaliid to share their thoughts on this, as they're the only active Gadabursis on here. One thing I wanna bring up though is that I've mentioned SNM ceased to function following the declaration of Independence od Somaliland. At this point, members of SNM split into various tribal factions that did clash with one another (we had our own civil war as well remember). So it is possible that the SNM this paper is mentioning is not the actual movement, but a faction that clashed with the Gadabursi subclans mentioned in the paper. Again I'd still like to hear what @Solid and @RoobleAlWaliid have to say about this.

 

[Kaafiye]

The first step We call it like it is which is Injustice!!

Somali people suffered injustice!! We have no time to squarell about the past. Completly meaningless and utter self defeating unless you want to provoke another civil war or inter clan conflic you better avoid that hebel hebel talk.

This issue is much broader and more complex than that one particular individual or that one particular clan. Focusing on it like that is very narrow and make it really hatefully simplistic and create this societal Victimization.

At the end of the day what happend was injustice! Once we call it that every clan will have interest in it

People will get on board to discuss how to make a just society for everyone you me my clan familiy everyone. A just society for everyone.. thereby Lay out a system that works for us caters to everyones needs , interests and greviances

The first step We call it like it is which is Injustice!!

Somali people suffered injustice!! We have no time to squarell about the past. Completly meaningless and utter self defeating unless you want to provoke another civil war or inter clan conflic you better avoid that hebel hebel talk.

This issue is much broader and more complex than that one particular individual or that one particular clan. Focusing on it like that is very narrow and make it really hatefully simplistic and create this societal Victimization.

At the end of the day what happend was injustice! Once we call it that every clan will have interest in it

People will get on board to discuss how to make a just society for everyone you me my clan familiy everyone. A just society for everyone.. thereby Lay out a system that works for us caters to everyones needs , interests and greviances

It isn't just injustice bro. It's a deep societal problem that enables the worst Somali criminals to get away with their crimes.

How else do you think a man like Hassan Dahir Aweys got away with his crimes? This man is responsible for introducing suicide bombing in Somalia, he brought this dangerous Salafi ideology into our country and is single-handedly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Somalis.

Yet when the Government captured him a couple years ago, his clan (Cayr) vouched for him and petitioned the Federal Government to give him amnesty! Imagine that! A man who should've been executed a long time ago is now living in a luxurious villa and is fully protected from harm.

These retarded Somalis don't realize that Dahir Aweys is responsible for the deaths of Cayr youth himself, yet they protect him from execution simply because he's their kinsman.

And this attitude exists all across Somalia.

 

[Geeljire]

It isn't just injustice bro. It's a deep societal problem that enables the worst Somali criminals to get away with their crimes.

How else do you think a man like Hassan Dahir Aweys got away with his crimes? This man is responsible for introducing suicide bombing in Somalia, he brought this dangerous Salafi ideology into our country and is single-handedly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Somalis.

Yet when the Government captured him a couple years ago, his clan (Cayr) vouched for him and petitioned the Federal Government to give him amnesty! Imagine that! A man who should've been executed a long time ago is now living in a luxurious villa and is fully protected from harm.

These retarded Somalis don't realize that Dahir Aweys is responsible for the deaths of Cayr youth himself, yet they protect him from execution simply because he's their kinsman.

And this attitude exists all across Somalia.

Bro like i said! We need to call it like its what you explained to me is injustice. Once we refer to it as such.

Every somali regardless of their clan will come together, cuz everyone has interests in creating a just society. So people will come into this discussion of how to make a just society for everyone.

The problem isnt specifically about that particular individual or that one clan, when i talked about it being a more complex and broad issue what i was talking about was the factors & systemic problems that enabled the injustice to happen in the first place and let it continue to happen without responsibility.

So it is really is self defeating at this point to point fingers hebel hebel is responsible hebel hebel is the issue. Not only would that inforce hate narratives it would also dumb down the issue and this issue of injustice will still prevail.

For example imagine if i were to treat the subject of somali piracy in the same way some of you are doing on this thread.
You would disagree wouldn't you , point fingers at a group pirates instead of getting to the root problems analyzing the situation and coming up with ideas and solutions rather than to only blame or villify a particular group or person.

If we did that, not only would more such incidents occur but it would be empowering it & giving support to such issues to prevail via these enforced hate narratives.

 

[Freebandz]

Say what you will. Barre had some fatal flaws himself and he's partly to blame for the formation of the rebel group, SNM. Since it was he that settled Ogaden refugees on the land of Issaq people, where the government encouraged them to dispossess them of their land. And it's well established that the regime targeted their clan, just like they did to the MJ. The only difference is he gave them the port of Bossaso. He did nothing to placate other groups. Better yet he agitated them. You still can't deny that innocent people were tortured because of their tribe as a consequence which was a form of collective punishment, even for noncombant civilians, which only fueled hatred for the regime and increased support for rebel groups. Although I don't think SNM were saints. I still can't justify the killing of all Issaq. I also think they are at fault for targeting innocent Gadabursi. In any case, who's fault was it for Ethiopia bombing Borama, and getting into debt to begin with - the regime.They made many and missteps. That really caused some wounds which probably won't heal. Hence, a deep reluctance for reconciliation and one of the drivers for self-determination. You also can't lie that Barre was a nepotist, like your typical Somali but he went overboard with it. Bandit did you're family gain any perks because they were a favored sub-clan? I'm trying to account for confirmation bias (interpreting information based on your own perception). You claim to be on the side of reason but judging by your comments I can tell there is some resentment there. Had it been your clan this happened to I doubt you'd write them off as civilian casualties.

What proof do you have of these claims were you in his office when he was making these diabolical plan?
here you are stupid assumptions lets get few things straight there was never an evil darod plan to take other people land
We already own close to 60% of somalia and lets be honest if we really wanted to take regions the shabelle and jubbas were there for the taken and we already owned most of it farms anyways So that leaves the question why would a clan that owned mostly all the important regions already target the desert up north?
Now let me tell you why the reason we picked Beledweyne and hargaise
The reason we picked it was because one it was close to the Ethiopian borders and the second it was one of the few places that could carry large numbers of refugees plus it had the big highway that connects hamar They stayed there for close to a decade not because the government had an agenda to steal isaaq land but because the government was getting free money to house them there I personally don't know if ogaden and there militia had different agenda in mine
See if take of your baised glasses for second and use logic for a second everything can be explained
Here is another false statement during the siyaad barre regime he build 3 places xamar, babera and hargaisa while ignoring the whole country even where his people live he basically build these shit heads cities yet we have dumb people like you saying otherwise Know something before you open your mouth when the British left north Somalia they didn't leave alot of infrastructures behind unlike the Italians who left some
Blaming the Ethiopian bombing on him nowDo you also blame him for the drought that occurred in north somalia around that time
The bombing Ethiopia did is also considered civilian casualties
But it's hard to blame it on him I rarely hear people do it two the country was gonna go to war with or without siyaad barre it just happened to be him leading the country when it happened he basically did what people wanted which was to get the somali regions back do I have to remind you there was a little fighting going between somalia and Ethiopia before he came into power
There is 2 sides to every story and then there is the truth what you people run around with is called the isaaq story we have no one on this site who was in siyaad barre office making plans with him if those people told there own story it would be alot different the truth is always in the middle. yes some innocent isaaq might have been killed or tortured but majority of them the government forces single them out for a reason if the government really went around killing any isaaq they see there be none left today.
Yes there was favoritism in the government mainly merahan and sometimes my sub clan and ogaden
As for me personally my family didn't really directly get any property from the government or anything but like all darod families in hamar before the war yes some of my relatives worked for him
They weren't big shots thoe they were bottom of the food chain

 

[nambarA]

Jimmy carter is on a documentary where he frankly said " I couldn't see myself helping SOMALIA over Ethiopia...keep in mind that Jimmy was a conservative southern Baptist ...I have the video to show you guys ...this video shows the little Amount Somalia meant to the super powers ..you got folks here saying " SOMALIA was respected and was powerful" ...actually it was a starving little known hell-hole in Africa to many others

Regardless, it was a rare event when two superpowers colluded to weaken/defeat Somalia.

 

[TheSayid]

It isn't just injustice bro. It's a deep societal problem that enables the worst Somali criminals to get away with their crimes.

How else do you think a man like Hassan Dahir Aweys got away with his crimes? This man is responsible for introducing suicide bombing in Somalia, he brought this dangerous Salafi ideology into our country and is single-handedly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Somalis.

Yet when the Government captured him a couple years ago, his clan (Cayr) vouched for him and petitioned the Federal Government to give him amnesty! Imagine that! A man who should've been executed a long time ago is now living in a luxurious villa and is fully protected from harm.

These retarded Somalis don't realize that Dahir Aweys is responsible for the deaths of Cayr youth himself, yet they protect him from execution simply because he's their kinsman.

And this attitude exists all across Somalia.

while under mogadishu house arrest he actually somehow sneaked out an audio calling for youth to rise up against the government, lol, i heard they want to send him to qatar now.

but than again, this is the same government that has many criminals in their government, like indha cadde. they even asked the u.s to give mohamed ali samatar immunity.

 

[Bahal]

Aideed did nothing wrong

 

[Mijo Baasto]

Jews and Canada

 

[Unionist]

Siad Barre is definitely the one who is the major factor that made Somalia into what it's known today. If he didn't kill elected PM Samatar in Laascaanood, we wouldn't be in this predicament.

If he didn't wage war against Ethiopia and then lose leading to his power trip nepotism with his tribe, there wouldn't be a civil war.

 

[TheSayid]

Siad Barre is definitely the one who is the major factor that made Somalia into what it's known today. If he didn't kill elected PM Samatar in Laascanod, we wouldn't be in this predicament.

If he didn't wage war against Ethiopia and then lose leading to his power trip nepotism with his tribe, there wouldn't be a civil war.

do you have any proof of that? btw his name is Shermarke not samatar.

 

[Unionist]

do you have any proof of that? btw his name is Shermarke not samatar.

Yes, I meant Cabdirishiid Cali Sharmake. Don't know why I confused Samatar with him

As for proof, the situation speaks for itself. How did Siad Barre carried out a coup just days after the PM's death and overtook the whole government office? You need preparation for that kind of big overtaking.

 

[Geeljire]

while under mogadishu house arrest he actually somehow sneaked out an audio calling for youth to rise up against the government, lol, i heard they want to send him to qatar now.

but than again, this is the same government that has many criminals in their government, like indha cadde. they even asked the u.s to give mohamed ali samatar immunity.

Yup i heard that!! Kudos to him.

Many youth will take that message the wrong way. They will either join Alshabaab or Follow bunch of wacko SJW feminists Revolutionary Agenda.

What we need is a SomaliCentric revolution through and through! The Major reason we are in this place to begin with is because of Oppurtunists, Exploiters & Self haters who want to enforce foreign concepts & systems of governance incompatible & inconsistent with the societal structure and values, culture and religion of the somali people.

The irony of it all is that they do it in the name of Soomaal and then Blame it on the Soomaals supposed ''backwardness'' when their foreign dogma fails. The irony!

 

[Unionist]

Yup i heard that!! Kudos to him.

Many youth will take that message the wrong way. They will either join Alshabaab or Follow bunch of wacko SJW feminists Revolutionary Agenda.

What we need is a SomaliCentric revolution through and through! The Major reason we are in this place to begin with is because of Oppurtunists, Exploiters & Self haters who want to enforce foreign concepts & systems of governance incompatible & inconsistent with the societal structure and values, culture and religion of the somali people.

The irony of it all is that they do it in the name of Soomaal and then Blame it on the Soomaals supposed ''backwardness'' when their foreign dogma fails. The irony!

SJW feminists did more for Somalia than any other nationalists that only know how to go to starbucks fadhi ku dirir.

 

[Geeljire]

SJW feminists did more for Somalia than any other nationalists that only know how to go to starbucks fadhi ku dirir.

Not really. Oppurtunistic Exploitation of somali plight and using Somalis as mascots and poltical tool isnt doing them a favor. Its Exploitation hence why they are running around peddelling the media while the real true somali people are actually helping their own without being backed by the west like these bootyclappers

SOOMAALI HUMANITY!!