He was rumored to be an Alcoholic , so he probably drank away with money he took from the treasury.
Which decade has been the worst decade ever for Somalis/Somalia
- Thread starter Sigmundd
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He was rumored to be an Alcoholic , so he probably drank away with money he took from the treasury.
He admitted openly to drinking, said red wine was his favorite. Where he is from it’s not considered shameful but ilbaxnimo, so he was very candid about it. The alcoholic stuff is bs though.
My grandpa was a close confidante and employee of a Barre waziir. Many of the elite were quite liberal and drinkers to be honest.
99% of Somalilanders are very conservative. Lol. I have been to Hargeisa a couple of times. It's quite traditional even in the bustling areas.
I believe in someways Edna and Egal resented Siad Barre because before him they were living a luxurious upper class life, partying, drinking red wine, visiting casinos and traveling the world visiting foreign leaders as prime minister and lady even if it was at the expense of Somalis in general
That is now sxb. Cigaal has been dead for over 20 years
Do you even understand Somali? He literally said we need our army (SNM) to protect the rural people wearing white (popular attire of the nomads) and needed vehicles & fuel to get in and out. That's a cooked out translation
There is a whole chapter in the 1990 UN report of Barre's army specific war against the nomads and you want to convince me otherwise by using a cooked up translation?
The war against civilians started way before 1988 it was a decade ago in 1978, the government supported a Darood dominated militia called WSLF to fight Ethiopia, the militia however used it's firepower against Isaaq nomads in the borders with Ethiopia in an area called the Hawd, that's the origin of SNM military wing. Literally all it takes to prove you wrong is google WSLF Isaaq into the search bar and here you fabricating event out of your mind to justify Barre's atrocities.
Evil Days: Thirty Years of War and Famine in Ethiopia (1991) page 95 & 96
Yes his popularity tanked after Ogaden War. It doesn't matter if you support or oppose Barre, at this point it's a common knowledge and basic fact that Somalia's defeat in Ogaden War was the spark of his downfall. How else do you explain the coup attempt from within the army and the MOD meteioric rise within the military and the government? Regarding the last point, of course there are no domestic resistance, because everyone who opposes Barre is either dead or in jail. Such conducive environment for peaceful protests and democratic calls for transfer of power.
That also isn't true, Samatar was his loyal gacanyare, when he was injured in the car accident Samatar tried to grab power and was later humiliated by Barre when he came back.
Again, factually incorrect.
From Bad Policy to Chaos in Somalia (1996) Page 4 & 5
That's another problem with you. I noticed you pull up an interview and build you whole thesis over it. The documents you keep posting don't have a source, just a snippet you pulled from Twitter without any citations. You sound like someone who read a pro Barre post on X and then built his entire position over it. Actions speak louder than words. If all it takes is a single interview to change you entire prospective over an individual than you're a naive person. I can post a speech by Caydiid telling his people to not lot, rape or kill civilians. Does that makes him a good guy and erase all his atrocities in southern Somalia? No. So stop being so gullible and clueless. No one is faulting Barre for attempting to free Ogaden, we're faulting him for refusing the Soviet mediation and losing the war afterwards. How can you botch this Slam Dunk? Or at the very least support WSLF and other Ethiopian rebel groups tearing eachothers up without involving the SNA. What surplus are you talking about? Most of budget went to the army, we underperformed SSA and never had a surplus. We were barely afloat by aid can you imagine how would Somalia have looked like without aid?
It's an indicative because he put the best interest of his clan (MOD) over the best interest of the people (Somalia) The entire political Somali literature disagrees with you, but it's fine you can have your opinion irrespective of it validity.
So which one is it, Said Barre never instigated Human Right Abuses or Human Right violations are common in most armed conflicts? Kala door
I hold a 20 year established sovereign government to a higher standard than a splintered rebel group like USC but I throw the question back at you. Why did Barre fail to create Afweynia in Gedo? If he was such a great leader to all Somalis why couldn't he crave his own little paradise in Gedo & Lower Juba for his Darood people to live peacefully? Surely since he was such a great leader to all Somalis, least he can do is govern his own Darood people into prosperity, right? No. When Afweyne was finally reduced into a clan Warlord he failed the very same thing you're demanding from other rebel groups. First thing he did is trying to invade Mogadishu (twice) and failed. He couldn't keep Marexaan, Ogaden and Harti militia under a unified structure and they end up butchering eachother in Kismayo yet you're asking why other rebels failed to establish a government??? Other rebels weren't in charge of a government for 20 years, other rebels didn't have a standard army, other rebels didn't monopolize the entire political landscape and foreign aid for 20 years.
The question itself absolves Barre of any guilt. Why didn't you build a government? When the actual question should; What happened to the prior one?
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Do you even understand Somali? He literally said we need our army (SNM) to protect the rural people wearing white (popular attire of the nomads) and needed vehicles & fuel to get in and out. That's a cooked out translation
There is a whole chapter in the 1990 UN report of Barre's army specific war against the nomads and you want to convince me otherwise by using a cooked up translation?
The war against civilians started way before 1988 it was a decade ago in 1978, the government supported a Darood dominated militia called WSLF to fight Ethiopia, the militia however used it's firepower against Isaaq nomads in the borders with Ethiopia in an area called the Hawd, that's the origin of SNM military wing. Literally all it takes to prove you wrong is google WSLF Isaaq into the search bar and here you fabricating event out of your mind to justify Barre's atrocities.
Evil Days: Thirty Years of War and Famine in Ethiopia (1991) page 95 & 96
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Word for word what he said in Somali ''' Waaxan doniyah ina kun iyo shan boqol cidamo soo xogo an geliyo gudaha....
They went into civilian areas purposefully and blended with them and used to Ethiopian Soldiers to infiltrate the place and those who he wanted to protect the armed militias inside.
Another source citing on ground observer that backs it up:
"distributed fighters (with and without uniforms and disctinctive markings) among the civilian population"
So you deliberately inflitrated civilian areas , distribute yourself among the civilian population with plain clothing with no clear distinctions.
Then you act suprised that civilian population is met with reprisal or suffers from a counter measure?
Like i said i don't symphatize with insurgency groups and they were the cause behind the civilian suffering.
This is a CIA reporting after the Ogaden war
'' there is not organized opposition to his regime within Somalia''
'' The group's acceptance of Ethiopian assistance and it's narrow clan make up have weakened its appeal to the Somali populace''
Just like the SNM that i shown in the other pages , the SSDF couldn't attract local Somalis to their cause, they had no widespread appeal.
This is news reporting in mid 80s after Siad Barre's returning from accident.
'' Presidet Mohammed Siad Barre returned hom last month after a month long stay in hospital.......Thousands of Somalis waving green branches to symbolise life and rebirth, filled the streets of the capital to welcome their leader''
Safe to say that his popularity in 1986 was still high.
The opposition didn't come from the domestic civilian population. It came from a few sections of the military who acted as die hard marxist soviet loyalists , that opposed him primarily for the fall out with the soviet and his alliance shift with the US.
Thats when the internal purge happened within the regime in an attempt to cleanse those anti-state actors. Marxism and soviet influence was introduced into Somalia in the 1960s and Siad Barre sought to restrict and limit it.
That crack down caused the anti-siad sentiments. Somalia could have won the Ogaden war and it still would have led to this, because it would ultimately mean the fall out with soviet.
Just like the CIA reporting said ''The continued existence of Tribalism , despite the 10 year long campaign to eradicate it , presents an area that could be exploited by anti-siad eliments''. Thats exactly what they did
He never attempted to take power from him. He practically remained the vice president until 1991.
GNP and GDP doesn't tell you the living standard of the average person , it tells you about it's gross domestic output of a country. Somalia was a small population back then of 4-5 million as well. Across low income African countries(they were among) the average house hold in Somalia was experiencing lower poverty rates. You know why? Because the wealth that we did have even if it was less , it was more spread out and the government delivered social services to the people, the government provided people with food, shelter , education and clothing. The average person didn't have to spend much money on this, so what they were earning didn't matter as much.
It's even more laughable to bring up GDP/ GNP of other African countries compared to Somalia when you consider how a lot of that domestic production/export/import was either controlled by foreign multinational corporations or syphoned by them like they are todayand the elites at the top. Even their farms were operated by foreigners. Any real wealth either went abroad or was monpolized by a tiny few at top which left most in Sub Saharan African countries in abject poverty. But here you have ignorant people arguing Siad Barre is wrong for socialism and nationalizing Somali industries, when in reality he did the right thing and it would have paid off immensily in the long run.
When i mentioned ''Budget surplus'' it means the state had enough saved up to invest in development, after all deductions are made. For example if the government at the time had a budget of 400 million, and at end of putting the money into salaries, public spending's etc and yet nothing is left of it like how it was in the 1960 regime. But instead they had millions left in the 1970s.
They spent that money on saving northerners from drought and famine. They invested in provided them with housing, new employment oppurtunities as well as either as farmers or fishermen , since they lost their livestock. That's where the money went to, it didn't go to the military at all.
Also you are not bringing up anything new , i have actually spoken at length about Somalia's economic problems in the 1980s, it wasn't because of weak institutions, bad governance, or socialist economic policies. The catalyst to it was the constrains the Ogaden war refugee influx put on the fragile economy
The rest was actually the IMF , world bank structural programs , this is when the borrowing happened a long with it to mitigate economy impact . The structural reform conditions on those borrowing wrecked the economy
I also explained it better detail here the structural economic changes that happened with introduction IMF and World Bank as debt servicing agencies where a lot of governmental programs, livestock, fishery and agricultural production had to be scaled back or even abandoned to satisfy them, and also how nationalization benefited Somalis even the literacy program wouldn't be even possible if it wasn't for that
Like me and Zak was saying if Somalia was able to tap into their resources which they were poised to do , they would have payed off the loans , gotten relief and used it to rehabilitated the economy.
In any case it's mute point to argue from an economy basis, because none of the oppositional groups even mentioned this or came up with any plans to solve Somalias economic problems at the time. It's more brough up today to gasslight Somalis and our old regime.
I didn't build a whole thesis over a single interview. I brought that interview as collaboration. Because i very well know that you guys will accuse sources of being foreign, us based, kacaan progaganda or what have you. Instead of dealing with the actual facts reported within them. It's ironic because you pulled up a Siad Barre qoute that have zero evidence to back it.
You even acussed the written memoires of diplomats that accurately said that the ''SNM were playing games with the lives of their civilian population'' of being Siad Barre shill. You dimissed CIA documents and Human Rights observers who accurately accounted that the rebel groups were making civilian areas into battle grounds as ''US congress of Library''
So all you have done until now is just cast ad homimems by ''disparaging a certain claim by attacking the source of the claim, rather than the claim itself.''
There was no soviet mediation at all. The Soviet proposed a federation with Ethiopia, Siad Barre accepted it with the condition that Ogaden is granted it's autonomy. Mengistu rejected it. Thats what happened.
There is zero evidence of MOD but you can bark all day about it. All it really does in the end is expose yall as some tribalist conspiracy nutcases.
I suppose what you are going to argue next is that Siad Barre was part of the league of villains and is a secret free mason part of the illuminati order lool.
So let me get this straight, you argue that there is legitimate opposition to Siad Barre but when i attempt to evaluate that opposition , you come back with ''I hold a 20 year lestablished sovereign government higher standard than a splinter rebel group''
When you said this you actually proved me right. The opposition had zero legitimacy behind it, thats why you are forced to say that.
It's also false, because those very same insurgencies sought to overthrow the government to establish a government to replace it. So its appropiate hold them to even greater standards i must say. If the old regime was bad in so many different ways as you like to argue and you oppose it. You need to be better than it and bring changes and improvements that reflect that.
They weren't splinter rebel groups at all, they were proxies that was trained and organized by the enemy and had bases inside ethiopia they used to launch into Somalia from. They were given arms and weaponry from that same eneny with the aim to topple the regime.
Ignoring your'' Afweyne , Afweyne darood gedo juba, whatever'' 'ramblings.
The simple fact you conveniently left out SNM shows hows how much this is the ramblings of a tribalist maniac. Qabil really fried my peoples brains to this extant.
You will excuse the actions, infighting and crimes of SNM because the were part of your qabil camp but emphasize only other militias doing it (Btw SNP and SDDF are darood militias they fought against Siad, they werent allied with him). Oh i actually forgot you don't hold them to any standards
The lack of standards must be the reason why after 30 years Somaliland SNM leadership helped render the North into an isolated and unrecognized poverty stricken backwater with low indicators in their mindless attempt to persue ''Citraaf''. The leadership instead of taking the Taiwan approach isolated Somaliland from all trade and investments and outside contact with other states. What can you achieve when your policy direction is driven by tribal hatred and hate for a dead person who has been gone for 30 years. It haunts you to the point you scream ''Afweyne'' and ''Darood'' and make up conspiracies in your mind. I am glad i am not cursed with this insantity that is hyper clan concious thought process. It really is akin to the way a genocidal racist thinks.
Even if we were to accept Siad Barre was this bad Darood supremacist hitler villain character yall make him out to be. There are literally countries in the world that has had worse dictators, even our neighboring ethiopia with Mengistu and it spawned TPLF and others. You know what they did? they moved past it and started building a new future for themselves and persued a uniting vision. Made peace with eachother. They are also able to not let that tarnish their national identity or spill over into how they intepret the history they share with eachother.
You know why? because their opposition to the leadership wasn't based on personal grudges, hatred and clan chauvanism or part of some outside parties destabilization plan, which is exactly what you have proven in your ramblings. This is the only angle you guys chose to argue from. Anytime i listened to yall speak everything is reduced into clan power games and that is the sole motivating objective, nothing to do with fighting to improve freedoms, oppurtunities or better economic factors.
You will gladly live in utter 30 year long destitution, human rights abuse, lack of freedoms/political participation and exploitation if it means your clan is the head huncho in charge of a pretend government as we have seen in the aftermath. You will accuse the other party of the same wrongs you yourself go on to commit. How does that make sense?
Then you don't have accountability and standards for those that came after who are also active in the present situation. You have standards, blame and accountability instead for a dead man who left the planet 30 years ago.
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You left the next part where he said "Siday ay oo ilashadan dadka reer miyiga iyo tuuloyinka dadka dharka cadka xiddah" literal translation is protecting the nomad population in the villages wearing white clothes. This is the full interview and he clearly speaks about SNM not Ethiopian troops you filthy propagandist. He betrayed Mengitsu by saying they'll pull back their troops 15km to comply with his new deal with Afweyne but end up pushing to Burco & Hargeisa when the Somali army also pulled back as per 1988 agreement. Typical low I.Q misinformation/ mistranslation from your side.
This is also verified by UN report were testimonies from refugees stated that SNM protected Isaaq civilians fleeing to Ethiopia by providing 20 armed men to escort them through dangerous road manned by SNA. It really says a lot when the rebel group is more concerned with the safety of the civilians than the so called national army which destroys you whole flimsy argument.
A Government at War with Its Own People
Somalia a Government at War with it's Own People
I already proved SNA targeted civilians and SNM protected them. Let's put more salt on your wounds. Before the bombardment the government deliberately segregated the civilian population into Isaaq and non Isaaq. The non Isaaq civilian population were evacuated and transported out of the cities. You can't attribute civilian casualties as collateral damage when you specifically singled them out for the upcoming massacres which shows clear intent.
Not only that, Berbera another major city populated by Isaaq was never attacked by the SNM. The government, however, was killing people by the masses. When you kill unarmed civilians solely based on their tribal background what do you call that?
Delusional should be your 2nd name. Link me to this report, I am very sure the same report holds him responsible for the rebel insurgence. The CIA released 3 reports focusing on Somalia.
-Somalia: Prospects for Stability (1982)
-Tribal Challenge to Siad (1984)
-Somalia: Threat to Stability (1985)
All of which are available here:
All 3 reports agree that Siad Barre lost popularity after Ogaden war and the subsequent collapse of the economy. They also confirm that he intentionally and knowingly provoked inter and intra clan conflicts to remain in power. This is from the last report Threats to Stability which debunks your silly Twitter snap and that ridiculous headline.
There are so many quotable passages inside these three reports that goes deeper with the problems he has with every Somali sub clan even the Sameroon. It also highlights his total reliant on Marexaan & Ogaden sub clans along with disproportional gov posts, privilege and rampant corruption that keeps them full and satisfied. These CIA reports dismantles your juvenile run-on arguments but honestly, you're not even worth the time or effort. I'm sure you don't even know the source of the passage you keep spamming to generalize your rumbles just saying they're "CIA" Typical Twitter Bot.
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I have a theory that a lot of users here with certain viewpoints don’t speak Somali and then I came across this post. I gave up on this user long ago and now it seems they also dont speak SomaliDo you even understand Somali? He literally said we need our army (SNM) to protect the rural people wearing white (popular attire of the nomads) and needed vehicles & fuel to get in and out. That's a cooked out translation
There is a whole chapter in the 1990 UN report of Barre's army specific war against the nomads and you want to convince me otherwise by using a cooked up translation?
The war against civilians started way before 1988 it was a decade ago in 1978, the government supported a Darood dominated militia called WSLF to fight Ethiopia, the militia however used it's firepower against Isaaq nomads in the borders with Ethiopia in an area called the Hawd, that's the origin of SNM military wing. Literally all it takes to prove you wrong is google WSLF Isaaq into the search bar and here you fabricating event out of your mind to justify Barre's atrocities.
Evil Days: Thirty Years of War and Famine in Ethiopia (1991) page 95 & 96
View attachment 349118View attachment 349119
Yes his popularity tanked after Ogaden War. It doesn't matter if you support or oppose Barre, at this point it's a common knowledge and basic fact that Somalia's defeat in Ogaden War was the spark of his downfall. How else do you explain the coup attempt from within the army and the MOD meteioric rise within the military and the government? Regarding the last point, of course there are no domestic resistance, because everyone who opposes Barre is either dead or in jail. Such conducive environment for peaceful protests and democratic calls for transfer of power.
That also isn't true, Samatar was his loyal gacanyare, when he was injured in the car accident Samatar tried to grab power and was later humiliated by Barre when he came back.
Again, factually incorrect.
From Bad Policy to Chaos in Somalia (1996) Page 4 & 5
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That's another problem with you. I noticed you pull up an interview and build you whole thesis over it. The documents you keep posting don't have a source, just a snippet you pulled from Twitter without any citations. You sound like someone who read a pro Barre post on X and then built his entire position over it. Actions speak louder than words. If all it takes is a single interview to change you entire prospective over an individual than you're a naive person. I can post a speech by Caydiid telling his people to not lot, rape or kill civilians. Does that makes him a good guy and erase all his atrocities in southern Somalia? No. So stop being so gullible and clueless. No one is faulting Barre for attempting to free Ogaden, we're faulting him for refusing the Soviet mediation and losing the war afterwards. How can you botch this Slam Dunk? Or at the very least support WSLF and other Ethiopian rebel groups tearing eachothers up without involving the SNA. What surplus are you talking about? Most of budget went to the army, we underperformed SSA and never had a surplus. We were barely afloat by aid can you imagine how would Somalia have looked like without aid?
It's an indicative because he put the best interest of his clan (MOD) over the best interest of the people (Somalia) The entire political Somali literature disagrees with you, but it's fine you can have your opinion irrespective of it validity.
So which one is it, Said Barre never instigated Human Right Abuses or Human Right violations are common in most armed conflicts? Kala door
I hold a 20 year established sovereign government to a higher standard than a splintered rebel group like USC but I throw the question back at you. Why did Barre fail to create Afweynia in Gedo? If he was such a great leader to all Somalis why couldn't he crave his own little paradise in Gedo & Lower Juba for his Darood people to live peacefully? Surely since he was such a great leader to all Somalis, least he can do is govern his own Darood people into prosperity, right? No. When Afweyne was finally reduced into a clan Warlord he failed the very same thing you're demanding from other rebel groups. First thing he did is trying to invade Mogadishu (twice) and failed. He couldn't keep Marexaan, Ogaden and Harti militia under a unified structure and they end up butchering eachother in Kismayo yet you're asking why other rebels failed to establish a government??? Other rebels weren't in charge of a government for 20 years, other rebels didn't have a standard army, other rebels didn't monopolize the entire political landscape and foreign aid for 20 years.
The question itself absolves Barre of any guilt. Why didn't you build a government? When the actual question should; What happened to the prior one?
The beginning portion of what he said matters more because he is describing how they invaded the areas with Ethiopian troops.You left the next part where he said "Siday ay oo ilashadan dadka reer miyiga iyo tuuloyinka dadka dharka cadka xiddah" literal translation is protecting the nomad population in the villages wearing white clothes. This is the full interview and he clearly speaks about SNM not Ethiopian troops you filthy propagandist. He betrayed Mengitsu by saying they'll pull back their troops 15km to comply with his new deal with Afweyne but end up pushing to Burco & Hargeisa when the Somali army also pulled back as per 1988 agreement. Typical low I.Q misinformation/ mistranslation from your side.
This is also verified by UN report were testimonies from refugees stated that SNM protected Isaaq civilians fleeing to Ethiopia by providing 20 armed men to escort them through dangerous road manned by SNA. It really says a lot when the rebel group is more concerned with the safety of the civilians than the so called national army which destroys you whole flimsy argument.
View attachment 349171
A Government at War with Its Own People
www.hrw.org
Somalia a Government at War with it's Own People
That text you shown there describes the aftermath of SNM storming the cities and the government responding with arial assaults, not before it.
That CIA document you showed there right now gives an accurate run down of events. It literally proves what i just said before. His popularity didn't tank after the Ogaden war and the opposition wasn't from the civilian population or rooted in the Ogaden war loss but rather it was few sections inside the military who were die hard soviet bloc marxist loyalists who resented him for the fall out with the sovietDelusional should be your 2nd name. Link me to this report, I am very sure the same report holds him responsible for the rebel insurgence. The CIA released 3 reports focusing on Somalia.
-Somalia: Prospects for Stability (1982)
-Tribal Challenge to Siad (1984)
-Somalia: Threat to Stability (1985)
All of which are available here:
All 3 reports agree that Siad Barre lost popularity after Ogaden war and the subsequent collapse of the economy. They also confirm that he intentionally and knowingly provoked inter and intra clan conflicts to remain in power. This is from the last report Threats to Stability which debunks your silly Twitter snap and that ridiculous headline.
View attachment 349177
View attachment 349179
There are so many quotable passages inside these three reports that goes deeper with the problems he has with every Somali sub clan even the Sameroon. It also highlights his total reliant on Marexaan & Ogaden sub clans along with disproportional gov posts, privilege and rampant corruption that keeps them full and satisfied. These CIA reports dismantles your juvenile run-on arguments but honestly, you're not even worth the time or effort. I'm sure you don't even know the source of the passage you keep spamming to generalize your rumbles just saying they're "CIA" Typical Twitter Bot.
Read closely to what it says:
''Siad's popularity as a whole further enhanced by Somalia's initial success in the 1977-78 Ogaden war and his expulsion of the highly unpopular Soviet advisory personnel.
''Ironically, however , these two moves also laid the groundwork for opposition to his regime , which culminated in the Majertain led coup attempt of April 1978''
Any real tribalism that occurred was actually a creation by those very same anti-siad elements who sought to draw members of their own clan family to their side and other Somalis and erode Siad's broad support base.
'' there is no organized opposition to his regime within Somalia''
'' The group's acceptance of Ethiopian assistance and it's narrow clan make up have weakened its appeal to the Somali populace''
''The continued existence of tribalism, despite 10-year campaign to eradicate it , however presents an area that could be exploited by anti-Siad elements
They had limited appeal beyond their clan and defected to Ethiopia to become proxy stooges.
Which also made them have even lesser appeal because Somalis wouldn't support people who are shills for Ethiopia.
CIA doc from Year 1985
He purged them not for their clan identity as his disgruntled critics would have you believe or because he favored merahan , but for their anti state sentiments and betrayals.
There are no ''loyal tribes'', which is nebulous way of reframing the clan diversity within his upper military ranks, security services and governance which also included many Majerteen and Isaaq as we all know(I can name them all for you, even the somalilands longest serving president was the head of NSS and many other SNM officials), so there are loyal individuals not loyal tribes.
To prove this even further 3 years after the Ogaden war he gave high level seats to variety of clans and this is after the purging happened. How can he purge people for their clan but at the same time diversify and give those same clans elevated positions inside the government? But also continue to give broad ethnic based support
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I have a theory that a lot of users here with certain viewpoints don’t speak Somali and then I came across this post. I gave up on this user long ago and now it seems they also dont speak Somali
How can i write out the beginning portion of what he said in Somali if i cannot speak it or understand it?
They deliberately dispersed themselves within civilian populations and made civilian areas into battle grounds while bringing foreign enemy troops with them.
It's important to mention this because you cannot bring civilians into the fight, tap into tribalism and then complain afterwards of their deaths and suffering and people being screened for tribal support or regional support. I don't condone it, possibly even terrible human rights abuse happened as it is reported but it is predictable as war crimes and civilian deaths or casualties are common during armed conflicts.
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