Why Do Some Muslims Deny Where Allah is?

[Haragwaafi]

Ashari creed existed for 500 years by the time of Ibn Hajar and Nawawi.

Plus i am not talking about Asharis. The modern Salafi creed is based upon Ibn Taymiyyah/Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahabb and doesn't have anything in common with traditional Hanbali creed.

With all due respect you don't know what you talking about since you have no knowledge about the Ahlu Suunah wa Jam'aa creed.

Abu Hasan al Asha'ari during his last days repented from the views and the positions he had and returned to the Sunnah or Hanabli creed as he stipulated in his last published book
"الإبانة عن أصول الديانة"

​

 

[Haragwaafi]

Both the Ashari and Athari aqeedah is from the Salaf, however the Salafi aqeedah is from Ibn Taymiyyah and completely distinct. This is what Imam Nawawi said regarding the hadith of descent:

“This ĥadīth [of Nuzūl] is of the ĥadīths mentioning attributes. There are two famous ways of the scholars regarding them, that have been explained previously in the chapter on belief.

Their brief description is that one is the approach of most of the Salaf, and some Kalām scholars, which is to believe it is true in a sense that befits Allāh, and that it's apparent, usual meaning for us, is not meant, and one does not speak about its meaning, accompanied with the belief that Allāh is clear of having attributes of created things, and of translocation, movements, and all descriptions that are for created things.

The other approach is that of most Kalām scholars, and groups among the Salaf, and they are narrated here from Mālik and Awzāýī, is to interpret these according to what befits the context. Accordingly, they interpreted this ĥadīth in two ways. One of them: Is that of Mālik ibn Anas and others, which is to say that it means: His Mercy, command, and angels descend, as it is said, ‘the Sultān did so and so’, when it was actually his subjects that did it by his command. The other: Is that it is metaphorical, and its meaning is, ‘accepting those who call by answering them and [showing them] benevolence.’”

And this is what Imam Nawawi said regarding the hadith of the slave girl:
“This hadith is from the narrations of the attributes of Allah, and there are two madhdhabs regarding this, and I have mentioned them both in the chapter of Iman. The first is to believe in it without delving into its meaning, while believing that Allah has no similitude to Him at all, and negating for him the attributes of created beings. And the second school is that it is interpreted in a manner that befits Him.”

Imam Malik said:

Abdullah ibn Nafi’ reported: Imam Malik, may Allah have mercy on him, was asked about the saying of Allah Almighty, “The Most Merciful rose above the Throne,” (20:5). The man said, “How is His rising?” Malik said, “The rising is acknowledged, its modality is unknown, and asking about it is an innovation.

Imam Abu Hanfia said also in his book "الفقه الأكبر"

من قال: لا أعرف ربي في السماء أو في الأرض فقد كفر، وكذا من قال: إنه على العرش ولا أدري العرش أفي السماء أو في الأرض؟ والله تعالى يُدْعى من أعلى لا من أسفل ".

Whoever says: I do not know my Lord in heaven or on earth has disbelieved. Likewise, whoever says: He is on the Throne, and I do not know whether the Throne is in heaven or on earth? God Almighty is called from above, not from below.”

It's clear what the creed of Ahlu Sunnah wa Jam'aa is and who follows the salaf as salih

 

[AlIshaaqi]

Sorry Omar but we will not change our religion now after more than a 1000 years

Ashari aqeedah was invented after 300 years and progressivley changed. Asharis only became majority after 500 hijri, before that they were a minority laangaab group persecuted by the Atharis and ahlul hadeeth!

 

[Kizaru]

why do people wonder this? our job is to worship allah swt, not wonder where our god sits or stands

 

[AlIshaaqi]

Asharis in general. I don't know anything about Nawawi's aqeedah. I've heard as well that he was ash'ari. But Ibn Hajr I believe was an extreme ashari. I remember I saw a video where they showed a quotation from I believe Fath al-Bari... they included the original Arabic... and as far as I remember it was something incredibly takfiri to the point where I think he was basically rendering all atharis as kaffirs. I think every athari person here would be a kaffir according to the statement of Ibn Hajr I saw. But Imam Nawawi I don't know about.


Al-Aqidah Al-Tahawiyyah is known to contain errors. That book is not like an aqeedah equivalent of Sahih al-Bukhari.

it does appear Tahawi was epousing aqidah of the jahmiyyah. but I would like to see anyone bring any of the students of Imam Malik, Imam Shafi'i (not counting Tahawi as he left the Shafi'i madhhab and became Hanafi), or Imam Hanbal and show them promoting ash'ari/jahmi aqeedah.

And I think it's interesting that I've brought a student of Imam Shafi'i and a student of Imam Hanbal and the other side brings Tahawi. Tahawi wasn't a student of any of the four famous imams.

Some of the Mistakes and Deficiencies of Al-Aqidah Al-Tahawiyyah @AlIslamProductions​

Ibn Hajr is less much affected by asharism than Al Nawawi. Al Nawawi was full on ashari while Ibn Hajr opposed ashairah in matters.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

Ashari aqeedah was invented after 300 years and progressivley changed. Asharis only became majority after 500 hijri, before that they were a minority laangaab group persecuted by the Atharis and ahlul hadeeth!

Why should anyone trust your claims on Aqeedah when you make the most basic error regarding numbers that anyone with internet access can debunk in 30 seconds?

 

[AlIshaaqi]

Why should anyone trust your claims on Aqeedah when you make the most basic error regarding numbers that anyone with internet access can debunk in 30 seconds?

What was the error? That the Ashari aqeedah was invented 300 hijri or that it only became majority 500 hijri?

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

What was the error? That the Ashari aqeedah was invented 300 hijri or that it only became majority 500 hijri?

Just because a particular person becomes famous for gathering together our theology doesn't mean it is an 'invention' or you would have to say Imam Nawawi and his 40 hadith is also an invention and by the way Imam Nawawi was 'Ash'ari too which is why you have arrogant kids talk about 'his mistakes' like they have 0.00000000001% of anything he did.

For it to be an aqeedah that is 'invented' it would have to be different from what is found in the Qur'an and Sunnah and yet we don't find any difference. There are also multiple ahadith alluding to the emergence of the 'Ash'ari school of theology and to Imam al 'Ash'ari

 

[AlIshaaqi]

Just because a particular person becomes famous for gathering together our theology doesn't mean it is an 'invention' or you would have to say Imam Nawawi and his 40 hadith is also an invention and by the way Imam Nawawi was 'Ash'ari too which is why you have arrogant kids talk about 'his mistakes' like they have 0.00000000001% of anything he did.

For it to be an aqeedah that is 'invented' it would have to be different from what is found in the Qur'an and Sunnah and yet we don't find any difference. There are also multiple ahadith alluding to the emergence of the 'Ash'ari school of theology and to Imam al 'Ash'ari

The earliest traces of any semblance to ashari aqeedah is the creed Ibn Kullab which is drastically different from the version that asharis settled on today, since asharism progressivelly changed from Ibn Kullab -> Al Ashari -> Al Juwayni -> Al Razi -> Al Sanusi.

Ibn kullab and his companions that were around the time of Imam Ahmed were heavily criticised by Imam Ahmed and ahlul hadeeth due to using ilm ul kalaam and the conslusions they came to due to it. So how can this be the creed of ahlul hadeeth and salaf? Salaf, ahlul hadeeth and the four imam conslusivley hated and said ilm ul kalaam is haraam so how can it be their creed or even an acceptable creed?

The truth is asharism is the reaction to the mu3tazilah and the creed is a product of the debates between mu3tazilah and proto asharis. Al Asharis history himself is a testament to this, being mu3tazili 40 years then becoming disillusioned with it and giving the rest of his life debating them trying to harmonise between the holy texts and kalaam.

Al Nawawi is ashari I don't care about him, doing fiqh and hadeeth dosent make u a good person. Al Zamakhsarhi the mu3tazili did alot of good work in the field of tafseer and language, is he ha saint to be revered now?

Also ashari aqeedah totally opposes the holy texts and is disbelief as their conclusions where said to be by the salaf and early scholars!

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

The earliest traces of any semblance to ashari aqeedah is the creed Ibn Kullab which is drastically different from the version that asharis settled on today, since asharism progressivelly changed from Ibn Kullab -> Al Ashari -> Al Juwayni -> Al Razi -> Al Sanusi.

Ibn kullab and his companions that were around the time of Imam Ahmed were heavily criticised by Imam Ahmed and ahlul hadeeth due to using ilm ul kalaam and the conslusions they came to due to it. So how can this be the creed of ahlul hadeeth and salaf? Salaf, ahlul hadeeth and the four imam conslusivley hated and said ilm ul kalaam is haraam so how can it be their creed or even an acceptable creed?

The truth is asharism is the reaction to the mu3tazilah and the creed is a product of the debates between mu3tazilah and proto asharis. Al Asharis history himself is a testament to this, being mu3tazili 40 years then becoming disillusioned with it and giving the rest of his life debating them trying to harmonise between the holy texts and kalaam.

Al Nawawi is ashari I don't care about him, doing fiqh and hadeeth dosent make u a good person. Al Zamakhsarhi the mu3tazili did alot of good work in the field of tafseer and language, is he ha saint to be revered now?

Also ashari aqeedah totally opposes the holy texts and is disbelief as their conclusions where said to be by the salaf and early scholars!

Niyow I would stop if I was you I imagine it's all easy to you typing up worrds lakiin some words have very dire consequences. I have seen all I need to see it is not possible to discuss with someone who dismissed the ulema in this fashion

 

[AlIshaaqi]

Niyow I would stop if I was you I imagine it's all easy to you typing up worrds lakiin some words have very dire consequences. I have seen all I need to see it is not possible to discuss with someone who dismissed the ulema in this fashion

If u want to go down that road do u want me to show u your ashari imams saying that the sahaba were mujassimah(anthropomorphist) but they where just excused?

Don't worry about me ''disrespecting'' innovators, worry about u being on the wrong creed!
And alhamdulillah I respect and revere the ulama, but the mutakalimoon arent scholars to me!

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

If u want to go down that road do u want me to show u your ashari imams saying that the sahaba were mujassimah(anthropomorphist) but they where just excused?

Don't worry about me ''disrespecting'' innovators, worry about u being on the wrong creed!
And alhamdulillah I respect and revere the ulama, but the mutakalimoon arent scholars to me!

I'm not going down any road dude you don't have the pre-requisites to hold a discussion respectfully.

No scholar has ever accused the Sahaba of doing that I'm not going to bother responding to obvious fabrications.

 

[AlIshaaqi]

I'm not going down any road dude you don't have the pre-requisites to hold a discussion respectfully.

No scholar has ever accused the Sahaba of doing that I'm not going to bother responding to obvious fabrications.

I don't have pre-requisites? lol

I know u don't even know arabic and have never read any first hand sources. Ill provide the sources from your own scholars saying this, let's see then how dishonest u become and deny it!

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

I don't have pre-requisites? lol

I know u don't even know arabic and have never read any first hand sources. Ill provide the sources from your own scholars saying this, let's see then how dishonest u become and deny it!

You are free to do what you want.

No one who has studied would refer to the ulema in this loose lipped and insulting manner. Even your Salafi preachers refrain from openly making such statements.

You know nothing about me and whether I know Arabic or not but for your information I spent quite some time reading your Salafi sources starting with Ibn Abdulwahab and his (very few predecessors) like Ibn Taymiyyah.

I bet you have never actually read the works of your 'opponents' only what your side says about them.

In any case I am happy to be called Jahmi or whatever slur you guys have it means that we have the correct path when it comes from someone who accepts mujassim beliefs. I am not even 'Ash'ari or Maturidi by the way I just accept they are Ahlus Sunnah.

 

[AlIshaaqi]

I'm not going down any road dude you don't have the pre-requisites to hold a discussion respectfully.

No scholar has ever accused the Sahaba of doing that I'm not going to bother responding to obvious fabrications.

Here u go Mr high level student:

Here one of the greatest ashari imams Al Izz ibn abdi al Salaam says that most people don't naturally believe in the conception of God in the way of the asharis except if they are taught the very convoluted and hard methodology of asharis. He says therefore they are excused for not knowing God through this way!

قال: “إِنَّ اعْتِقَادَ مَوْجُودٍ لَيْسَ بِمُتَحَرِّكٍ وَلَا سَاكِنٍ وَلَا مُنْفَصِلٍ عَنْ الْعَالَمِ وَلَا مُتَّصِلٍ بِهِ، وَلَا دَاخِلٍ فِيهِ وَلَا خَارِجٍ عَنْهُ لَا يَهْتَدِي إلَيْهِ أَحَدٌ بِأَصْلِ الْخِلْقَةِ فِي الْعَادَةِ، وَلَا يَهْتَدِي إلَيْهِ أَحَدٌ إلَّا بَعْدَ الْوُقُوفِ عَلَى أَدِلَّةٍ صَعْبَةِ الْمُدْرَكِ عَسِرَةِ الْفَهْمِ فَلِأَجْلِ هَذِهِ الْمَشَقَّةِ عَفَا اللَّهُ عَنْهَا فِي حَقِّ الْعَادِي.” [قواعد الأحكام في مصالح الأنام ج1 ص201]

 

[AlIshaaqi]

You are free to do what you want.

No one who has studied would refer to the ulema in this loose lipped and insulting manner. Even your Salafi preachers refrain from openly making such statements.

You know nothing about me and whether I know Arabic or not but for your information I spent quite some time reading your Salafi sources starting with Ibn Abdulwahab and his (very few predecessors) like Ibn Taymiyyah.

I bet you have never actually read the works of your 'opponents' only what your side says about them.

In any case I am happy to be called Jahmi or whatever slur you guys have it means that we have the correct path when it comes from someone who accepts mujassim beliefs. I am not even 'Ash'ari or Maturidi by the way I just accept they are Ahlus Sunnah.

He further says the Prophet left the Sahaba upon ignorance and anthropomorphism due to it being natural and very hard to get away from, he further states Allah forgave them for their anthropomorphism because it's very hard for the average person to get rid of it due to the methodology and evidences laid out by the asharis being very difficult ot understand. The worst is he says Islam wouldn't be applicable to them in this state of Allah wasn't so merciful and forgave their kufr:

قال: “وَلِذَلِكَ كَانَ – صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ – لَا يُلْزِمُ أَحَدًا مِمَّنْ أَسْلَمَ عَلَى الْبَحْثِ عَنْ ذَلِكَ بَلْ كَانَ يُقِرُّهُمْ عَلَى مَا يَعْلَمُ أَنَّهُ لَا انْفِكَاكَ لَهُمْ عَنْهُ، وَمَا زَالَ الْخُلَفَاءُ الرَّاشِدُونَ وَالْعُلَمَاءُ الْمُهْتَدُونَ يُقِرُّونَ عَلَى ذَلِكَ مَعَ عِلْمِهِمْ بِأَنَّ الْعَامَّةَ لَمْ يَقِفُوا عَلَى الْحَقِّ فِيهِ وَلَمْ يَهْتَدُوا إلَيْهِ، وَأَجْرُوا عَلَيْهِمْ أَحْكَامَ الْإِسْلَامِ … وَلَوْلَا أَنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ سَامَحَهُمْ بِذَلِكَ وَعَفَا عَنْهُم لِعُسْرِ الِانْفِصَالِ مِنْهُ، لَمَا أُجْرِيَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ أَحْكَامُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ بِإِجْمَاعِ الْمُسْلِمِينَ … لِأَنَّ الشَّرْعَ إنَّمَا عَفَا عَنْ الْمُجَسَّمَةِ لِغَلَبَةِ التَّجَسُّمِ عَلَى النَّاسِ فَإِنَّهُمْ لَا يَفْهَمُونَ مَوْجُودًا فِي غَيْرِ جِهَةٍ “

There u have it, sahaba, those who came after them and majority of people are upon anthropomorphism and the prophet let them be on it.

 

[AlIshaaqi]

This senitement of majority of people being anthropomorphist isn't only held by Al Izz ibn Abdi al Salaam. Several other ashari-mutakilim imams stated the same. Here u go:

Is Ash'arism the Theology of the Masses?

We often hear that the majority of the Ummah adheres to Ashari theology. But what does it mean to be an Ashari if it does not entail a conscious adoption of its doctrines? And surely, the masses/laity form the majority of the Ummah, thus is it true that the masses of the Ummah knowingly embrace...

islamicdiscourse.substack.com

Asharism and Maturidism isn't Islam and the way of the Prophet and sahaba!

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

This stuff doesn't change anything even if it is true that one specific person said that.

Our aqeedah is found in the Qur'an and Sunnah. The Salafi one isn't it's that simple.

Ibn Taymiyyah said the most disgusting statements about Allah's attributes statements that are straight up kufri statements.

 

[AlIshaaqi]

This stuff doesn't change anything even if it is true that one specific person said that.

Our aqeedah is found in the Qur'an and Sunnah. The Salafi one isn't it's that simple.

Ibn Taymiyyah said the most disgusting statements about Allah's attributes statements that are straight up kufri statements.

Hahahahah so the words of the imams that made your aqeedah dosen't matter? Are u really saying you came the conclusions u came to without reading their books? U just opened the holy texts and arrived at things like occasionalism?

Your level is really showing now that u were shown what your imams hold, u just totally discarded them and claimed that u know better. Stop with the kibr and accept the truth!

""Ibn Taymiyyah said the most disgusting statements about Allah's attributes statements that are straight up kufri statements.""

Ibn Taymiyyah actually follows very simple and intuative principles when it comes to Allahs names and attributes.

1. Don't liken Allah to His creation
2. Don't deny His names and attributes
3. Don't distort His names and attributes

And these principles are found in the Holy texts and narrated in mass from the salaf. The key difference is our creed is backed up by the sayings from the salaf so it's not just open the Holy texts and make our own interpretations, we back it up with the narrations and positions of the sahaba and those who followed them!

Show me the principles of the mutakalimeen, your imams say it's almost impossible for the average person to understand, while our principles can be understood by anyone, Allah didn't reveal a religion for the elite and leave the vast majority of people helpless! U don't have to be Einstein level of IQ to understand your Lord!

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

@AlIshaaqi I never claimed to be anything dude and that's not relevant at all

Ibn Taymiyyah said that Allah has a physical body (wal iyadubillah).

This is all I need to know to throw this entire aqeedah in the bin.

You can't claim that he didn't liken Allah to his creation when he said that HE IS A PHYSICAL BEING wal iyadubillah. By the way, there was a time when the Kursi didn't exist and only Allah existed pre-eternally so my question to you as with the other guy is this: 'Where' (a stupid question in itself) was Allah before He created the Kursi?

You cannot say He was always established on the Kursi because then you fall into the same error as the people who believe the universe is eternal and always existed which is a quality only held by Allah and nothing else.