Woman ignored by men as she drowns in a pool
- Thread starter Yaraye
- Start date
I don't like this tiktok user's commentary on the incident. why would it be expected that random men will help a random woman? a woman can/should expect protection from... a husband, father, brother.... but irrespective of how things may work in some ideal fairy tale world... it would be crazy for a woman to expect that random men are going to help her... they might or might not...
if women want a lifestyle that doesn't involve being married.... I don't think they can also expect having a man to protect them... I'm not saying that's the case here, I don't know if she was a spinster- but I believe we will have many cases in the future where we will see spinsters in dangerous and vulnerable positions due to not having a husband... a woman 50-something... alone, no husband, kids... things could happen
the whole concept of men protecting women is patriarchal and traditionalist. if you eliminate patriarchy and traditionalism, that goes as well.
Ghengis Kaarhis
VIP
Nilotic
VIP
I can't wrap my head around any of that rather callous reasoning; a human being (man or woman) shouldn't be left to die, especially under such easily preventable circumstances
Rather callous reasoning. You're giving a callous strawman. None of what I said meant that she should be left. I was responding to the commentary of the tiktok user. I don't know if you listened to what I was responding to.
I was saying that realistically-speaking, women should not expect unknown unrelated men to help them. I am not talking about what's moral or what's immoral, I am talking about practicality and realism.
for whoever is outraged by this post
first off you should hear what I'm responding to. the tiktok user is basically bashing men on the basis that men are supposedly not concerned enough about protecting random women and she's basically saying that men should protect women, and that they should be protecting random women they don't know.
this is just not a realistic expectation. people can get mad all they want but it's true. and I'm not talking about what's right or wrong, I'm talking about realistic.
and
1- is it not traditional and patriarchal to have this concept that random men everywhere should be walking around on the alert to help and protect random women??? this is PATRIARCHY. this promotes the idea that there is a difference between men and women!
that tiktok user is advocating patriarchyism. but here we are in the current year, the shills for patriarchy attacking me because I identified and called out the patriarchy.
Nilotic
VIP
Are you not arguing that human beings (women in this case) shouldn't expect help from "random men"?
Why shouldn't they expect help from other human beings in times of need?
Imagine if it was Muslim men around her, this would not have been the case. It seems like the kuffar could not care less about another human suffering, just like Palestine. But God forbid if it was a dog or a cat, they would have all jumped in to save them. Audhubillah, It's disheartening to see such disparities in empathy and action.
because we don't live in a disney film. none of us man or woman should just expect that random strangers are benevolent people who are going to help us.
Nilotic
VIP
We're not talking about extending some sort of blanket assistance (in all circumstances) to unrelated women; we are referencing an instance in which a human being could have easily prevented the death of another
I already specified and you already understood that I'm talking about realism and practicality, not morals. I don't expect random strangers to have my back and unless you're very naïve you don't either.
We also don't live in a perfectly Islamic society in which all women (regardless of religion) dress modestly, but you still hold the expectation that Muslim sisters who reside in irreligious Western nations should be held to Islamic ideals of dressing, despite how unrealistic it is for all of us to not be influenced by sexually appealing fashion trends popularised by the likes of Rihanna and Bella Hadid.
By that flimsy logic of "we don't live in a utopia", we shouldn't bother with sticking to our ideals (personal or religiously formed) because they'll be rendered impractical at the end of the day.
It should absolutely be expected particularly when it doesn’t cost anything to help and there is no risk. We aren’t animals, regardless of patriarchy or not it’s a human thing.
I can also understand the other side too where the modern west looks at patriarchy and traditionalism as an outdated thing then go on to expect men to do patriarchal and traditional things.
that's the thing that drives me crazy about that tiktok user's commentary- we don't live in a traditionalist society and I don't think she's a traditionalist tiktoker but she's expecting the men to act like traditionalists.
I don’t think she meant men as in the patriarchs but it’s more there were just men around. I’m assuming if there were only women she would’ve said women and if it was a mix of the genders she would have said people
what are you talking about? what post have I talked about women's dress? that is extremely rare if you've found a post where I talk about that topic.
anyways, what is realism and what is right are separate topics. I'm not some monster opposed to helping random people but I didn't go into morality discussion because it is a very long and complicated discussion involving different variables based on the individual situation, not because I'm opposed to morality.
I think we should have realistic expectations of others. I don't expect random strangers to help me if I'm drowning. That doesn't mean I don't believe in following ideals. We can be warm-hearted idealists but also look at things in a cold pragmatic way. And I think there should be both. Idealism without pragmatism- how will it succeed? And pragmatism without beliefs or ideals.... I can't imagine it being anything other than evil.
I mean I may have misunderstood her, I was of the impression she was invoking ancient norms of chivalry. and I believe she was implicitly. if you listen to her commentary, I think she is implying that men should adhere to traditionalist chivalry-type norms of they should be suddenly ready to leap to the aid of random unknown women.
