As-Sawa'iq Al Uluuhiya fee Radd 'Alal Wahhabiyya

[Khalid Hussein]

Ahbash are a recent group if i'm not mistaken but the debate about Where Allah is has been going on for far longer

Yeah true that which makes the Ahbash a bigger problem

 

[SuldaanGuled]

Yeah true that which makes the Ahbash a bigger problem

They don't even pose much of a threat from the little that i know of, they were even banned from ethiopia. How did you end up in their school ?

 

[Khalid Hussein]

They don't even pose much of a threat from the little that I know of, they were even banned from ethiopia. How did you end up in their school ?

Long story, I was born in Canada I move to Australia Sydney. There weren't any good Islamic schools mainly secular. Until my Dad took me to a School called Alamanah college. My Father taught me a lot of the Deen mainly Aqeedah, he explained to me Where is Allah and so on and so forth. This school made me go against what my father taught me until I debated the teacher. I got an Expulsion note for radical views. Then my Dad Said "Stuff this school just go to public boys high school" my Dad enrolled me into a School called Birrong boys. I graduated from there in 2005.

I was in Canada I was in grade 8 in Australia I was in year 7. So funny, they go on something called late born early born system in Australia

 

[SuldaanGuled]

Long story, I was born in Canada I move to Australia Sydney. There weren't any good Islamic schools mainly secular. Until my Dad took me to a School called Alamanah college. My Father taught me a lot of the Deen mainly Aqeedah, he explained to me Where is Allah and so on and so forth. This school made me go against what my father taught me until I debated the teacher. I got an Expulsion note for radical views. Then my Dad Said "Stuff this school just go to public boys high school" my Dad enrolled me into a School called Birrong boys. I graduated from there in 2005.

I was in Canada I was in grade 8 in Australia I was in year 7. So funny, they go on something called late born early born system in Australia

Waan fahmay

You dodged a bullet ruunti

Were they lebanese ? the group got firmly established in lebanon after being kicked out and i heard that there're alot of lebanese in australia as well.

 

[Zayd]

Muslims again arguing about different schools of thought as Muslims do because their barbaric animals

You must be really old to have that much hate in your heart.

 

[Ash'arite]

@Ash'arite

Asalam aleikum walaal

Just a quick question regarding "where Allah is " from a young age i always believed that He is above His throne and one thing i've never understood after looking at both sides of the argument was, how is it that Allah can exist without a place(a location that is different from His creation). As muslims we believe that we will see Allah in the hereafter, question is if Allah exists without a place how would we be able to see Him ?

Wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu

Firstly, before we answer that question.
There is a more pertinent question. Which is: Can the Almighty Entity even be seen? Philosophically speaking just using rationale alone?

The scholarly works say yes. You may ask why? The answer is this principle:

لأنه سبحانه موجود، وكل موجود يصح أن يرى

Anything that exists, has the possibility of being seen.

Any entity which has attributes and has been characterised by whatever terms, there is an overwhelming possibility that entity can be seen. So it logically speaking, there is no qualms.


To answer your question directly, the best answer was put to prose by Imam al Ghazali himself:

وَمِنْهُ أنْ يُنْظَرَ بالأبْصَارِ *** لكِنْ بِلاَ كَيْفٍ ولا انْحِصَارِ

"He will be seen by the eyes, however without speculation of how and without being confined."

In more simplistic terminology, He can be seen and will be seen. But because the Nature of God is one in which we do not have the ability to yet determine(since He hasn't been seen), that vision will be one which will suit the needs and requirements of the Creation. So this vision doesn't entail that He will be confined to a certain space nor does it mean the exact dimensions of this vision can be determined through conjecture, especially.

 

[Khalid Hussein]

Waan fahmay

You dodged a bullet ruunti

Were they lebanese ? the group got firmly established in lebanon after being kicked out and i heard that there're alot of lebanese in australia as well.

The school was 99.99% Lebos which is slang for Lebanese. I was one of three black students in my school at the time.

 

[xisaabiye]

Ahlul sunnah wal jamaa3a are the followers of the four madaahib in fiqh(Shawafi3i, 7anafiya, Malakiya, & 7anaabila) and their creed is in line with the great salaf Imam Ashari or Imam Abu mansoor al Maturudi. Anything the skews from the teachings within these are outside of the fold of ahlul sunnah

The prophet said al ulama warathatul anbiya, the scholars are the inheritors of the prophets. Therefor we follow their rightly guided way for understanding the quran and sunnah. The over whelming majority of Ulama were of the four schools in fiqh and the 2 in creed. Imam nawawi, ibn hajar al asqalaani, imam qurtubi, imam suyuuti, ibn rajab al hanbali, ibn kathir, etc. These are the greatest mufassir of all time and the greatest explainers of the ahaadith are from these Imams. You cannot understand sahih bukhari without ibn hajar shar7 or sahih Muslim without imam nawawi shar7. They were all Ashaairah and rightly guided, walilaahil 7amd.

 

[Khalid Hussein]

Ahlul sunnah wal jamaa3a are the followers of the four madaahib in fiqh(Shawafi3i, 7anafiya, Malakiya, & 7anaabila) and their creed is in line with the great salaf Imam Ashari or Imam Abu mansoor al Maturudi. Anything the skews from the teachings within these are outside of the fold of ahlul sunnah

The prophet said al ulama warathatul anbiya, the scholars are the inheritors of the prophets. Therefor we follow their rightly guided way for understanding the quran and sunnah. The over whelming majority of Ulama were of the four schools in fiqh and the 2 in creed. Imam nawawi, ibn hajar al asqalaani, imam qurtubi, imam suyuuti, ibn rajab al hanbali, ibn kathir, etc. These are the greatest mufassir of all time and the greatest explainers of the ahaadith are from these Imams. You cannot understand sahih bukhari without ibn hajar shar7 or sahih Muslim without imam nawawi shar7. They were all Ashaairah and rightly guided, walilaahil 7amd.

See ahbash Ideology which is Sufi Ideology, We believe the Prophet the Sahabah and the Tab3en.

The Quran and Sunnah are the most important. Even Imam Ashari said before his death what I have taught was wrong. See Imam Ashari went against his teachings before he died.

The best of Mufassiren was Imam At-Tabari.

 

[Zayd]

Those who cut the Sanad between us and the tabi'een are innovators, the prophet said the likes of these will end up with dajjal, we're not afraid of you khalid, you will always be a minority.

 

[SuldaanGuled]

Wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu

Firstly, before we answer that question.
There is a more pertinent question. Which is: Can the Almighty Entity even be seen? Philosophically speaking just using rationale alone?

The scholarly works say yes. You may ask why? The answer is this principle:

لأنه سبحانه موجود، وكل موجود يصح أن يرى

Anything that exists, has the possibility of being seen.

Any entity which has attributes and has been characterised by whatever terms, there is an overwhelming possibility that entity can be seen. So it logically speaking, there is no qualms.


To answer your question directly, the best answer was put to prose by Imam al Ghazali himself:

وَمِنْهُ أنْ يُنْظَرَ بالأبْصَارِ *** لكِنْ بِلاَ كَيْفٍ ولا انْحِصَارِ

"He will be seen by the eyes, however without speculation of how and without being confined."

In more simplistic terminology, He can be seen and will be seen. But because the Nature of God is one in which we do not have the ability to yet determine(since He hasn't been seen), that vision will be one which will suit the needs and requirements of the Creation. So this vision doesn't entail that He will be confined to a certain space nor does it mean the exact dimensions of this vision can be determined through conjecture, especially.

I agree with everything except for the last part as it doesn't make sense at all tbh. Compare that statement to the following hadith of the Prophet (peace be upon him).

Al-Bukhari and Muslim narrated from Abu Hurayrah (radi Allahu anhu) that some people said: “O Messenger of Allah, will we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?” The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “Do you doubt that you see the moon on the night when it is full?” They said, “No, O Messenger of Allah.” He (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, ‘Do you doubt that you see the sun when there is no cloud?” They said, “No, O Messenger of Allah.” He (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “You will see Him likewise…

What the Prophet (peace be upon him) is saying and the statement of the imam completely contradict each other. For us to see something it has to be visible to us otherwise it's not possible for us to see it and the Prophet (peace be upon him) is affirming this.

 

[xisaabiye]

See ahbash Ideology which is Sufi Ideology, We believe the Prophet the Sahabah and the Tab3en.

The Quran and Sunnah are the most important. Even Imam Ashari said before his death what I have taught was wrong. See Imam Ashari went against his teachings before he died.

The best of Mufassiren was Imam At-Tabari.

I was hopinh youd mention imam tabari. Check what Imam tabari says when he comes to the sifaat of Allah in his tafsir. Check what he says about the saaq("shin") in his tafsiir It's all in line with ahlul sunnah and completely against anything your so called salafi camp teaches

 

[SuldaanGuled]

The school was 99.99% Lebos which is slang for Lebanese. I was one of three black students in my school at the time.

It was good you got out alhamdulillah

 

[xisaabiye]

I agree with everything except for the last part as it doesn't make sense at all tbh. Compare that statement to the following hadith of the Prophet (peace be upon him).

Al-Bukhari and Muslim narrated from Abu Hurayrah (radi Allahu anhu) that some people said: “O Messenger of Allah, will we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?” The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “Do you doubt that you see the moon on the night when it is full?” They said, “No, O Messenger of Allah.” He (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, ‘Do you doubt that you see the sun when there is no cloud?” They said, “No, O Messenger of Allah.” He (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “You will see Him likewise…

What the Prophet (peace be upon him) is saying and the statement of the imam completely contradict each other. For us to see something it has to be visible to us otherwise it's not possible for us to see it and the Prophet (peace be upon him) is affirming this.

There is no doubt in the seeing of Allah. But we will see him in a way which he knows. When the ulama came across the ayaat and hadith which were mutashaabihaat they did one of two things. They either made ta'weel(interpretation) while maintaining that Allah knows best the true meaning. Or the did tafweed, where they affirmed their belief in the scripture as is, without translating or interpreting and relegated the meaning to Allah,knowing he is free from vices of creation

 

[Ash'arite]

I agree with everything except for the last part as it doesn't make sense at all tbh. Compare that statement to the following hadith of the Prophet (peace be upon him).

Al-Bukhari and Muslim narrated from Abu Hurayrah (radi Allahu anhu) that some people said: “O Messenger of Allah, will we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?” The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “Do you doubt that you see the moon on the night when it is full?” They said, “No, O Messenger of Allah.” He (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, ‘Do you doubt that you see the sun when there is no cloud?” They said, “No, O Messenger of Allah.” He (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “You will see Him likewise…

What the Prophet (peace be upon him) is saying and the statement of the imam completely contradict each other. For us to see something it has to be visible to us otherwise it's not possible for us to see it and the Prophet (peace be upon him) is affirming this.

I suspect you read only what you wanted to read an ignored the premise.

Did he say God will not be visible?

Re-read the statement. Constant mud slinging will only waste time.

 

[Prince of Lasanod]

Ahlul sunnah wal jamaa3a are the followers of the four madaahib in fiqh(Shawafi3i, 7anafiya, Malakiya, & 7anaabila) and their creed is in line with the great salaf Imam Ashari or Imam Abu mansoor al Maturudi. Anything the skews from the teachings within these are outside of the fold of ahlul sunnah

Let's not get ahead of ourselves... saying that the Athari creed is outside of ahlul sunnah is equivalent to what salafis claim about the ashari or maturidi creed.

 

[xisaabiye]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves... saying that the Athari creed is outside of ahlul sunnah is equivalent to what salafis claim about the ashari or maturidi creed.

I never said athari is outside of ahlul sunnah. I forgot to mention it, especially since salafis claim it without actually being part of it. Athari are the simplest. When it comes to these ayaat and hadith that contain mutashaabihaat like Al istawa, yad,saaq etc they do complete tafweed with no interpretation whatsoever. They don't get into the meaning, the how or even the translation of such verses

 

[Ash'arite]

There is no doubt in the seeing of Allah. But we will see him in a way which he knows. When the ulama came across the ayaat and hadith which were mutashaabihaat they did one of two things. They either made ta'weel(interpretation) while maintaining that Allah knows best the true meaning. Or the did tafweed, where they affirmed their belief in the scripture as is, without translating or interpreting and relegated the meaning to Allah,knowing he is free from vices of creation

Tafweedh or cosigning the meaning to God is the original path of the early Muslims in relation to the Godly Attributes. Interpreting the Godly attributes only came about when there was a need to respond to some of the outrageous claims by the anthropomorphic elements within the society. So it was a response borne out of necessity.

The Ash'ari Creed is the creed of the standard bearers of Sunnah.

 

[xisaabiye]

Tafweedh or cosigning the meaning to God is the original path of the early Muslims in relation to the Godly Attributes. Interpreting the Godly attributes only came about when there was a need to respond to some of the outrageous claims by the anthropomorphic elements within the society. So it was a response borne out of necessity.

The Ash'ari Creed is the creed of the standard bearers of Sunnah.

100% correct. Although ta'weel has its usool in tafseer from ibn abas radiyallahu 3an, there was virtually no need for it until Muslims came in contact with various anthropomorphic beliefs from different creeds. Mu3tazila went completely left wing and denied these hadith that contained these "attributes" while the Mujassidah went extremely right and became anthropomorphic. Al ashari and Al maturidi were the middle ground and defenders of ahlul sunnah. Alhamdulilah!

 

[Young Popeye]

Yeah true that which makes the Ahbash a bigger problem

I'm part of what you call ahbash, why are we a problem? because we mentally assault wahhabis? Wahhabis couldnt even enter Harar because we are the people of imam ahmed (a sufi) not osama. even wikileaks admitted that hararis booted wahhabis out https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09ADDISABABA1674_a.html