As-Sawa'iq Al Uluuhiya fee Radd 'Alal Wahhabiyya

[SuldaanGuled]

I suspect you read only what you wanted to read an ignored the premise.

Did he say God will not be visible?

Re-read the statement. Constant mud slinging will only waste time.

I read it but it doesn't make sense as the imam says the following

doesn't entail that He will be confined to a certain space

but the Prophet (peace be upon him) is telling us that we will see Allah in the same manner that we see the moon and sun. You can't see something if it doesn't exist in reality. If Allah doesn't have a form for us to see how will be able to see Him. So that statement of his is contradicting what the Prophet is telling us.

There has to be something of Allah for us to see otherwise it won't be possible for us to see Him at all. I hope you agree with me on this point. Claiming that we can see Allah but not see Him at the same time is a logical impossibility.

 

[Rorschach]

@Zayd @Ash'arite

Is there proof of any of the Salaf engaging in Ta'weel, and if so have you a citation for that?

This would be the ultimate test for the validity of Asha'arism.

 

[Ash'arite]

@Zayd @Ash'arite

Is there proof of any of the Salaf engaging in Ta'weel, and if so have you a citation for that?

This would be the ultimate test for the validity of Asha'arism.

I'd thought you'd never ask.

Here are just a few.

1.

أول ابن عباس رضي الله عنه أيضا قوله تعالى {وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ} قال "بقوة" كما في تفسير الحافظ ابن جرير الطبري

Ibn 'Abbas interpreted the word 'hands' to mean power. Surah adh Dhariyat

Tafsir ibn Jarir at Tabari



2.

أول ابن عباس النسيان الوارد في قوله تعالى {فَاليَوْمَ نَنْسَاهُمْ كَمَا نَسُوا لِقَاءَ يَوْمِهِمْ هَذَا} بالترك ، كما في تفسير الحافظ الطبري مجلد 5 / جزء 8 / ص 201. حيث قال ابن جرير "أي ففي هذا اليوم، وذلك يوم القيامة ننساهم، يقول نتركهم في العذاب".

Ibn 'Abbas interpreted the verse "The day we shall forget them", Ibn 'Abbas says: "Forget them i.e abandon them" Surah al A'raf

Tafsir ibn Jarir at Tabari


3.

أول ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما للفظ الأعين في قوله تعالى {وَاصْنَعِ الفُلْكَ بِأَعْيُنِنَا} قال رضي الله عنه "بمرأى منا" تفسير البغوي 2 / 322

Ibn 'Abbas says: "Construct the ship under Our Eyes" i.e "Under our supervision". Surah al Hud

Tafsir al Baghawi.


4.

- أول ابن عباس رضي الله عنه لقوله تعالى {اللهُ نُورُ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ} فقد جاء في تفسير الطبري (18/135) ما نصّه "عن ابن عباس قوله {اللهُ نُورُ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ} يقول: الله سبحانه هادي أهل السموات والأرض"

Ibn 'Abbas says: "God, the light of the Heavens and the Earth" i.e "The Guide to the inhabitants of the Heavens and the Earth.

Tafsir ibn Jarir at Tabari.






There are thousands more where that came from. This will suffice.

 

[xisaabiye]

@Zayd @Ash'arite

Is there proof of any of the Salaf engaging in Ta'weel, and if so have you a citation for that?

This would be the ultimate test for the validity of Asha'arism.

Both Imam abu hassan Al ashari and Abu mansoor al maturidi were both from the time of the salaf, so that's proof in and of itself

If you want more proof then read the tafsir of al tabari where he cites ibn abaas making taweel or even ibn abas tafsiir. Check the ayaah about the "shin" being revealed and you'll see the taweel made on the word saaq("shin"). There's even more about the verse in ar rahmaan which salafis love kkkk. I'm on my phone so I can't do proper research but do a Google check and you'll find it

 

[Rorschach]

Both Imam abu hassan Al ashari and Abu mansoor al maturidi were both from the time of the salaf, so that's proof in and of itself

If you want more proof then read the tafsir of al tabari where he cites ibn abaas making taweel or even ibn abas tafsiir. Check the ayaah about the "shin" being revealed and you'll see the taweel made on the word saaq("shin"). There's even more about the verse in ar rahmaan which salafis love kkkk. I'm on my phone so I can't do proper research but do a Google check and you'll find it

Sh. Ash'ari was born over 250 years after Hijra, would he be considered Tabi‘ al-Tabi‘in? I would assume not.

As for the rest, I'll check it out inshaAllah.

 

[SuldaanGuled]

There is no doubt in the seeing of Allah. But we will see him in a way which he knows. When the ulama came across the ayaat and hadith which were mutashaabihaat they did one of two things. They either made ta'weel(interpretation) while maintaining that Allah knows best the true meaning. Or the did tafweed, where they affirmed their belief in the scripture as is, without translating or interpreting and relegated the meaning to Allah,knowing he is free from vices of creation

How many imams did that regarding the seeing of Allah ? As i said earlier it never made sense to me since my dugsi days as i always believed Allah is above His throne. The existence of Allah simply can't be an abstract existence that lacks a physical reality.

How can you be able to see Allah if He lacks a physical reality ? granted we don't know the nature of that reality but nonetheless it has to be there otherwise we wont be able to see Him at all.

 

[xisaabiye]

I read it but it doesn't make sense as the imam says the following

but the Prophet (peace be upon him) is telling us that we will see Allah in the same manner that we see the moon and sun. You can't see something if it doesn't exist in reality. If Allah doesn't have a form for us to see how will be able to see Him. So that statement of his is contradicting what the Prophet is telling us.

There has to be something of Allah for us to see otherwise it won't be possible for us to see Him at all. I hope you agree with me on this point. Claiming that we can see Allah but not see Him at the same time is a logical impossibility.

The prophet saying this means we will see Allah in truth, it doesn't entail a form etc. This is why early ulama like the salaf muhadith sufyan ibn 3uyayna said al hadith mudil ilaa li alfuqaha which means hadith is missguidance(for all) except the people of fiqh.

The real question is, what does sight even mean when speaking about akhiro? We're talking about a different world altogether so don't confuse your limited understanding of vision in this temporal world with that of the eternal. With that being said, what is required upon you is to simply believe in these hadith and verses without need to delve into them. And on a side note, only mutawaatir hadith, hadith containing soo many narrations it's authentication is on par with the quran, can be used in belief.

 

[Rorschach]

I'd thought you'd never ask.

Here are just a few.

1.

أول ابن عباس رضي الله عنه أيضا قوله تعالى {وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ} قال "بقوة" كما في تفسير الحافظ ابن جرير الطبري

Ibn 'Abbas interpreted the word 'hands' to mean power. Surah adh Dhariyat

Tafsir ibn Jarir at Tabari



2.

أول ابن عباس النسيان الوارد في قوله تعالى {فَاليَوْمَ نَنْسَاهُمْ كَمَا نَسُوا لِقَاءَ يَوْمِهِمْ هَذَا} بالترك ، كما في تفسير الحافظ الطبري مجلد 5 / جزء 8 / ص 201. حيث قال ابن جرير "أي ففي هذا اليوم، وذلك يوم القيامة ننساهم، يقول نتركهم في العذاب".

Ibn 'Abbas interpreted the verse "The day we shall forget them", Ibn 'Abbas says: "Forget them i.e abandon them" Surah al A'raf

Tafsir ibn Jarir at Tabari


3.

أول ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما للفظ الأعين في قوله تعالى {وَاصْنَعِ الفُلْكَ بِأَعْيُنِنَا} قال رضي الله عنه "بمرأى منا" تفسير البغوي 2 / 322

Ibn 'Abbas says: "Construct the ship under Our Eyes" i.e "Under our supervision". Surah al Hud

Tafsir al Baghawi.


4.

- أول ابن عباس رضي الله عنه لقوله تعالى {اللهُ نُورُ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ} فقد جاء في تفسير الطبري (18/135) ما نصّه "عن ابن عباس قوله {اللهُ نُورُ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ} يقول: الله سبحانه هادي أهل السموات والأرض"

Ibn 'Abbas says: "God, the light of the Heavens and the Earth" i.e "The Guide to the inhabitants of the Heavens and the Earth.

Tafsir ibn Jarir at Tabari.






There are thousands more where that came from. This will suffice.

Thank you for the response. Is there any truth to Sh. Asha'ari (rA) renouncing his tenets near his death?

 

[xisaabiye]

Sh. Ash'ari was born over 250 years after Hijra, would he be considered Tabi‘ al-Tabi‘in? I would assume not.

As for the rest, I'll check it out inshaAllah.

The salaf is anybody within the first three generations, quroon of hijr. This comes from the hadith which I forgot lol "khayrul quroony qarny thumma...."

 

[SuldaanGuled]

The prophet saying this means

we will see Allah in truth

, it doesn't entail a form etc. This is why early ulama like the salaf muhadith sufyan ibn 3uyayna said al hadith mudil ilaa li alfuqaha which means hadith is missguidance(for all) except the people of fiqh.

The real question is, what does sight even mean when speaking about akhiro? We're talking about a different world altogether so don't confuse your limited understanding of vision in this temporal world with that of the eternal. With that being said, what is required upon you is to simply believe in these hadith and verses without need to delve into them. And on a side note, only mutawaatir hadith, hadith containing soo many narrations it's authentication is on par with the quran, can be used in belief.

we will see Allah in truth

Could you elaborate what you mean by that ? Truth of what ? i don't understand how you were able to come to that conclusion from the actual hadith.

I know the vision of akhiro will be different but that's not the issue at hand walaal.

 

[Rorschach]

The salaf is anybody within the first three generations, quroon of hijr. This comes from the hadith which I forgot lol "khayrul quroony qarny thumma...."

I understand. I just thought that the Sheikh was born too late to see one of the Tabi'in hence not fulfilling the condition. He was born in 260 AH - a lot of Tabi'in were gone by that time. Allahu aclam.

 

[xisaabiye]

Could you elaborate what you mean by that ? Truth of what ? i don't understand how you were able to come to that conclusion from the actual hadith.

I know the vision of akhiro will be different but that's not the issue at hand walaal.

I meant there is no doubt about the ru'iyah of Allah, and Allah and his messenger were true in what they said. But the meaning of "seeing" and the "how" is where I make tafweed al ma3na wa kayfiyah, ie I don't interpret the how and meaning and I leave those to Allah azawajal. This is the true way of the salaf. Imam ashaafi3i has a beautiful saying- "I believe in Allah and what has come from Allah in the way Allah INTENDED, I believe in the messenger of Allah, and what has come from the messenger of Allah, in the way He Intended"- When it comes to the mutashaabihaat your only requirement is belief in them, full stop. Ulama and some sahaba like ibn abas have made ta'weel and interpreted these meanings based on language etc..We can take their rightly guided interpretations, but it is not required of us to do anything aside from believing in the texts as they are.

 

[xisaabiye]

I understand. I just thought that the Sheikh was born too late to see one of the Tabi'in hence not fulfilling the condition. He was born in 260 AH - a lot of Tabi'in were gone by that time. Allahu aclam.

Allahu 3alm, I haven't read this stuff in over 4 years. I think the interpretation of qarn in the hadith is either generation, and/or century ie the first 100 years AH, "then those that followed then those that followed" as stated in the hadith (300 years). For that reason the four imams, and abu hassan Al ashari are categorised with being part of the salaf

 

[xisaabiye]

How many imams did that regarding the seeing of Allah ? As i said earlier it never made sense to me since my dugsi days as i always believed Allah is above His throne. The existence of Allah simply can't be an abstract existence that lacks a physical reality.

How can you be able to see Allah if He lacks a physical reality ? granted we don't know the nature of that reality but nonetheless it has to be there otherwise we wont be able to see Him at all.

I think any scholar you can name in history has followed the way of tafweed or ta'weel EXCEPT for ibn tayimiya, ibn qayim al jawziya, and a few other hanbali scholars who the salafis of today follow . Their position was that of literal meaning, and is why you have salafis saying Allah sits, has two right hands, a shin..acuudubillah. These words shouldn't even be translated from arabic in all honesty because words like Al istawa can have more than 15 meanings in Arabic depending on context, and somehow salafis chose that it means Allah sits. That's why the true way of the salaf is to believe in the mutashabihaat full stop. Don't go further into how etc. Or to follow rightly guided interpretations like that of ibn abas and imam tabari

 

[SuldaanGuled]

I meant there is no doubt about the ru'iyah of Allah, and Allah and his messenger were true in what they said. But the meaning of "seeing" and the "how" is where I make tafweed al ma3na wa kayfiyah, ie I don't interpret the how and meaning and I leave those to Allah azawajal. This is the true way of the salaf. Imam ashaafi3i has a beautiful saying- "I believe in Allah and what has come from Allah in the way Allah INTENDED, I believe in the messenger of Allah, and what has come from the messenger of Allah, in the way He Intended"- When it comes to the mutashaabihaat your only requirement is belief in them, full stop. Ulama and some sahaba like ibn abas have made ta'weel and interpreted these meanings based on language etc..We can take their rightly guided interpretations, but it is not required of us to do anything aside from believing in the texts as they are.

Al-Bukhari and Muslim narrated from Abu Hurayrah (radi Allahu anhu) that some people said: “O Messenger of Allah, will we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?” The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “Do you doubt that you see the moon on the night when it is full?” They said, “No, O Messenger of Allah.” He (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, ‘Do you doubt that you see the sun when there is no cloud?” They said, “No, O Messenger of Allah.” He (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “You will see Him likewise…

Do you believe that we will see Allah in the same manner as we see the moon and sun ? The ru'yah of Allah will be with the eyes and the Prophet peace be upon him affirms this when he asks the companions if they'll have doubts seeing the moon and the sun. when the companions affirm in the positive He then informs them that they will likewise see Allah in the same fashion.

If the "seeing" meant anything but sight with the eyes why would the Prophet ask them questions whether they saw the moon and the sun ?

Yes i do believe that we will see Allah and that this sight will be with our eyes, exactly as the our Prophet peace be upon him is describing in the hadith.

 

[xisaabiye]

Do you believe that we will see Allah in the same manner as we see the moon and sun ? The ru'yah of Allah will be with the eyes and the Prophet peace be upon him affirms this when he asks the companions if they'll have doubts seeing the moon and the sun. when the companions affirm in the positive He then informs them that they will likewise see Allah in the same fashion.

If the "seeing" meant anything but sight with the eyes why would the Prophet ask them questions whether they saw the moon and the sun ?

Yes i do believe that we will see Allah and that this sight will be with our eyes, exactly as the our Prophet peace be upon him is describing in the hadith.

The prophet didn't say "with eyes" that's your interpretation of what the prophet meant. I believe in the ruiya, the how is however Allah wills

Is this hadith mutawaatir? I ask because only mutawaatir hadith can be used in aqeedah

 

[SuldaanGuled]

I think any scholar you can name in history has followed the way of tafweed or ta'weel EXCEPT for ibn tayimiya, ibn qayim al jawziya, and a few other hanbali scholars who the salafis of today follow . Their position was that of literal meaning, and is why you have salafis saying Allah sits, has two right hands, a shin..acuudubillah. These words shouldn't even be translated from arabic in all honesty because words like Al istawa can have more than 15 meanings in Arabic depending on context, and somehow salafis chose that it means Allah sits. That's why the true way of the salaf is to believe in the mutashabihaat full stop. Don't go further into how etc. Or to follow rightly guided interpretations like that of ibn abas and imam tabari

What did imam malik, as shafic iyo abu hanifa all have to say about Al istawa ? it goes back way beyond ibn taymiya it didn't start with him. This is the conclusion i came to after weighing up the evidences and looking at the two sides of the argument

 

[SuldaanGuled]

The prophet didn't say "with eyes" that's your interpretation of what the prophet meant. I believe in the ruiya, the how is however Allah wills

Is this hadith mutawaatir? I ask because only mutawaatir hadith can be used in aqeedah

"With eyes" as that the only interpretation that could be given from the hadith. What other types of vision do you know of that would enable the people asking the prophet to see the moon and sun ?

I believe so as there are different narrations of the same hadeeth albeit different wordings. Who said that ? i've never heard of such a thing walaal

 

[Ash'arite]

Thank you for the response. Is there any truth to Sh. Asha'ari (rA) renouncing his tenets near his death?

The allegations are based on whether or not the book known as Al Ibanah was actually authored by him. The correct understanding is that it was authored by him. However, tenets that he upholds is the same one that he upholds in his earlier works.

Another thing to consider is that none of his students nor their students ever recorded that Abu Hasan al Ash'ari went through three stages.

I challenge anyone to bring any explicit statement from any of his students or their students that give this implication.

 

[Ash'arite]

What did imam malik, as shafic iyo abu hanifa all have to say about Al istawa ? it goes back way beyond ibn taymiya it didn't start with him. This is the conclusion i came to after weighing up the evidences and looking at the two sides of the argument

You haven't weighed anything

Have you read any of these books:

'Aqeedatul Murshidah by Ibn 'Asakir

Jawhar ut Tawhid with the commentary by al Bajuri

'Aqeedatul Nasafiyy by An Nasafi

If you haven't read these books as a minimum. Then you haven't weighed anything.