Is federalism 'treaty' good or bad for .So?

[DR OSMAN]

Horta what are you going to do? The constitution will be changed by SFG parliament who has the ultimate power.

You can go your separate way like SL and losing access to IC projects. Good luck. It would be great to select your 48 MPs in Xamar

Federal parliament cant change constiution since they are 1 side only in the constiution not the whole nation and its regional parliament. Nothing is fully federal till all parliament recognize it. This is reality you don't have to agree or like it but this is the process.

 

[bidenkulaha]

Federal parliament cant change constiution since they are 1 side only in the constiution not the whole nation and its regional parliament. Nothing is fully federal till all parliament recognize it. This is reality you don't have to agree or like it but this is the process.

Changes are enforced by power. You can fight, protest or claim independence I think you know that neither of these are sensible for PL so it’s why you are here begging for an agreement from FGS/South-Central Somalia.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@bidenkulaha puntland will not run from you but control you. You know our mainstream culture which I don't agree with and think we should all separate even tho im in the fringe.i think mini djibouti is wise than failed unity

 

[bidenkulaha]

@bidenkulaha puntland will not run from you but control you. You know our culture which I don't agree with and think we should all separate

It’s because you don’t believe in independence. PL isn’t self sufficient and cannot survive or prosper on it’s own. I agree with you.

IC have long realised and why they don’t take your independence threats seriously. Just look at January when Deni cut all ties with FGS yet last week was complaining FGS isn’t releasing projects.

 

[DR OSMAN]

It’s because you don’t believe in independence. PL isn’t self sufficient and cannot survive or prosper on it’s own. I agree with you.

IC have long realised and why they don’t take your independence threats seriously. Just look at January when Deni cut all ties with FGS yet last week was complaining FGS isn’t releasing projects.

I don't agree with the mainstream culture of puntland which feel that somali is their burden. This is mainstream culture. I'm on the fringe and believe we must just care for puntland.

I argue we never benefit from somali not even a water well in history however we carry the burden by neglecting ourselves and region since 1930 till 1991. anything from somali to puntland is either economic isolation or downright development isbaaro and war

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Ladies,
With the phallus swinging out of the way, let us get back to the actual discussion. See, the fulcrum of the typical debate rests at level 3, where people of ideas move the needle upwards whereas the typical bogan would force the needle unto a swift downward shift in desiring to engage in the most infinitesimal on the periphery; let us endeavour for the former, shall we?

For a meaningful discourse, the discussion must remain within the confines of agreed upon treaties, and accords, and guided by the Constitution with the object being:
a) Determining where agreements are, with a view of advancing farther for the common good, and
b) Underscoring where disagreements arise, with a view of finding a common ground for the public interest.

In the discussion, we are still at vector 0, and must wait stakeholder discussion at the right time.

Now, unto to the anti-federalist despondent forces, and by extension Centralists, to make the case against it, in the context of .So.

 

[FBIsomalia]

South Somalia doesnt know puntland weight re-build new Somalia.

As size Puntland equal to south Somalia. population is not clear since 1991 after civil war.

Maturity, puntland older than south Somalia and we implement federal system to Somalia.

HAG thinks they are clever to hijack fedral goverment and change it back pre 1991 era that break Somalia apart.

We inform reer OG that the current PM is puppet will harm power balance.

Now who need who?. Puntland doesnt need xamar but in other hand xamar they need us because they using Somalia name in international level.

My advice to reer South Somalia non HAG. Dont let Qoslaya fool you and burn down your goverment and turn it to zoo like it was in 1991 till 2004. Because Puntland will not save you again!!.

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Articles of Confederation
These eight years were critical to Federalism in the US, and are worthy of studying as to the reasons, and subsequent ills of the Confederation, and how it gave way to Dual Federalism in the 1900s. It bears a great deal of relevance to our current state, and I shall place it here for now to revisit.

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Against the backdrop of the regressive military rule of the 1969 - 1991, ensuing civil war of 1991 - 2000s, and yet to heal lacerations of the failed attempt at centralised system of governance, not to mention angst against authoritarian rule, dual federalism offers a solution at the present, where cooperative federalism could be explored at a later time, where said misgivings had been laid to rest. In tandem, consideration ought be given to constructing functioning Federal and State institutions built upon principles of civil accord, and shared common public interest, which in turn give way to a nation state for the many at the periphery, and not for the few in the corridors of power. This borrows steam from the bottom-up approach to nation building, where influence flows from the periphery (States) to the centre (Federal), and argues against the top-down, opposite approach.

On reflection, in the days of the Articles of Confederation, thorny contentious points included:

• Distrust amongst the colonies,
• Fear of tyranny flowing from a central authority, which does not serve the public interest, but that of the ruling class,
• Federal institutions such as Legislature and Representatives out of touch with their constituency, where a culture of the centre dictating to the periphery instead of the periphery influencing the centre takes command,

It must noted, if a proposal had been made, and one of the colonies disagreed, or reject it, it was deemed rejected, for it was deemed to violate the principles of shared common interest and unity, as agreed upon under the Articles of Confederation. This bears importance, as it sets precedence, and relevance to the discussion.

With the said in mind, and against the backdrop of the political culture, which has been brewing in Xamar, fast forward to the present state in .So, and let us reflect upon contentious points, as raised by PL:

• Develop clear and strict safeguards of the national sovereignty with SSC-Khatumo question at its heart,
• Completion of the Constitution, where guiding principles of power-sharing and consensus, politically or otherwise, are adhered to,
• Devise an agreed upon inclusive national security programme,
• Agree upon a natural resources management and sharing plan,
• Delineation of, and separation of Federal-State powers, and collaboration of institutions, as outlined in the Constitution,
• Create an agreed upon National judiciary system, defining Federal-State functions and roles,
• Formulate a transparent National economic and treasury programme with defined, and agreed upon guidelines,
• What form, or type of Election at the Federal level to be adopted,
• Determine as to the status of the Capital city, along with its rules and regulations,
• Work out a political solution prior to any amendments are presented to Federal institutions.

I shall reflect upon proposed unilateral amendments en route State institutions, a violation of basic Principle, and Articles of the Constitution.

 

[DR OSMAN]

Against the backdrop of the regressive military rule of the 1969 - 1991, ensuing civil war of 1991 - 2000s, and yet to heal lacerations of the failed attempt at centralised system of governance, not to mention angst against authoritarian rule, dual federalism offers a solution at the present, where cooperative federalism could be explored at a later time, where said misgivings had been laid to rest. In tandem, consideration ought be given to constructing functioning Federal and State institutions built upon principles of civil accord, and shared common public interest, which in turn give way to a nation state for the many at the periphery, and not for the few in the corridors of power. This borrows steam from the bottom-up approach to nation building, where influence flows from the periphery (States) to the centre (Federal), and argues against the top-down, opposite approach.

On reflection, in the days of the Articles of Confederation, thorny contentious points included:

• Distrust amongst the colonies,
• Fear of tyranny flowing from a central authority, which does not serve the public interest, but that of the ruling class,
• Federal institutions such as Legislature and Representatives out of touch with their constituency, where a culture of the centre dictating to the periphery instead of the periphery influencing the centre takes command,

It must noted, if a proposal had been made, and one of the colonies disagreed, or reject it, it was deemed rejected, for it was deemed to violate the principles of shared common interest and unity, as agreed upon under the Articles of Confederation. This bears importance, as it sets precedence, and relevance to the discussion.

With the said in mind, and against the backdrop of the political culture, which has been brewing in Xamar, fast forward to the present state in .So, and let us reflect upon contentious points, as raised by PL:

• Develop clear and strict safeguards of the national sovereignty with SSC-Khatumo question at its heart,
• Completion of the Constitution, where guiding principles of power-sharing and consensus, politically or otherwise, are adhered to,
• Devise an agreed upon inclusive national security programme,
• Agree upon a natural resources management and sharing plan,
• Delineation of, and separation of Federal-State powers, and collaboration of institutions, as outlined in the Constitution,
• Create an agreed upon National judiciary system, defining Federal-State functions and roles,
• Formulate a transparent National economic and treasury programme with defined, and agreed upon guidelines,
• What form, or type of Election at the Federal level to be adopted,
• Determine as to the status of the Capital city, along with its rules and regulations,
• Work out a political solution prior to any amendments are presented to Federal institutions.

I shall reflect upon proposed unilateral amendments en route State institutions, a violation of basic Principle, and Articles of the Constitution.

The theories and concept your provided on federalism must be weighted against Somali characteristics.

1. Pre Colonial Somalia
2. Colonial Somalia and it's legacy
3. Post independence Somalia whether civilian or kacan experiment
4. Civil War Somalia
5. Cultural on-ground reality to carve a system that represents their values(clan independence)
6. Historical Economic greviances and disparities regional to capital where ppl taxes, aid, debt was redistributed to 1 city and saw no benefits but only the burden.

Whatever system addresses all those dimensions or majority must be selected. A slow confederation to federal merge over 100 years is practical, a hybrid model is possible where each region has different status/relationship with the SFG, it doesn't need to be universal govt across all if it's not the will of all.

Let south central have whatever federal format they want, while PL can have it's own Model similar to china/hong kong arrangement 2 systems 1 nation or even 3 systems and 1 nation. We can even apply it as a 'PL treaty' model where it can be applied for 99 years, each 25 years we can do once in a generational review to discuss merging federal models or copying PL model 4 all or extending the treaty. In the federal/pl review we must demand the following is met.

1. Public trust and confidence in the South
2. International confidence
3. Socio-economic development
4. Rule of Law, Good governance, strong Institutions
5. Security

If their not met the treaty will meet up for another review interval in 25 years untill such time the treaty expires and we can discuss a merge 'if the milestones' are reached, extension for 99 years, separation. We also ensure PL doesn't rush to secession like south sudan and can be saved in the event of state failure or vice versa PL saving the south if their federal format fails.

It also allows PL to grow it's international profile for observors in the event of secession. It's not an extreme solution regionalism 4 all or capital city centralist solution but a medium ground to end the current stalemate and realize it's strength political diversity like business diversity is as it can be compared against each other and doesn't lead to all eggs in 1 basket political approach as we are currently trying to do on all sides of the spectrum.

 

[mohamedismail]

Federalism is great and is needed

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Just for reflection, let us remind ourselves of Powers the current Constitution grants the Fed. government vis-à-vis Powers [its] leadership wishes its Powers to be:

As stipulated under Article 54, Allocation of powers, Powers entrusted unto the Fed. Government are defined as:

(a) Foreign Affairs,
(b) National Defense,
(c) Citizenship and Immigration, and
(d) Monetary Policy.

Here are the proposed unilateral amendments:

A. Federal powers:

• Constitution,
• Sovereignty,
• Elections, and referendum,
• Foreign affairs,
• International agreements,
• Immigration,
• Religious affairs,
• Human rights,
• Census, and identity,
• Overall control of political parties and elections,
• A single Electoral Commission at Federal, State, and District levels,
• A national policy for land, marine, and aviation,
• National boundaries,
• Copyright, and intellectual property,
• Federal civil servants,
• A policy for personnel and human resources,
• Scale, measurements, and benchmarks.

B. Economy:

• National economic development plan,
• Monetary policy,
• Determine national revenue sources, Federal taxation, and regulation,
• National statistics,
• Intra and inter rivers between and amongst Fed. Member States,
• Foreign trade,
• International investment, and financing,
• Policy for energy, and water.

C. Infrastructure and Transportation:

• Ports and airports,
• Interconnecting roads,
• Transportation policy for land, sea, and air,
• Aviation,
• Postal, telephony,Internet, radio and television frequencies services along with Cyber Security, and data protection; telecommunication, and broadcasting,

D. Security and Judiciary:

• Defence, and nation army,
• Federal police, and national secret service,
• Restoration of order, where there is instability in Fed. Member States,
• Ownership of personal small arms,
• Federal Courts, and Judiciary systems,
• Federal Military Courts.

E. Public health, and services:

• National public health policy,
• National policy for remediation, medicine, and food,
• Immigration, refugees, and displaced persons policy,
• National policy for:
• Archives,
• Libraries,
• Theatres, and stadiums.

F. Education:

• National education, and curriculum mandating examination of High school certification,
• Higher education, technology, and research.

Conclusion: Proposed unilateral amendments is an act of blatant usurpation, and clear power grab, and in violation of the principle political accord, as outlined in Articles 3, 54, 121, and 132 of the Constitution.

Now, to bring this into context, and for the proponents of the amendments to take heed, let us review the intents, purposes, and implications, political or otherwise, of said powers in the proposed unilateral amendments. To be continued [ … ]

 

[DR OSMAN]

Just for reflection, let us remind ourselves of Powers the current Constitution grants the Fed. government vis-à-vis Powers [its] leadership wishes its Powers to be:

As stipulated under Article 54, Allocation of powers, Powers entrusted unto the Fed. Government are defined as:

(a) Foreign Affairs,
(b) National Defense,
(c) Citizenship and Immigration, and
(d) Monetary Policy.

Here are the proposed unilateral amendments:

A. Federal powers:

• Constitution,
• Sovereignty,
• Elections, and referendum,
• Foreign affairs,
• International agreements,
• Immigration,
• Religious affairs,
• Human rights,
• Census, and identity,
• Overall control of political parties and elections,
• A single Electoral Commission at Federal, State, and District levels,
• A national policy for land, marine, and aviation,
• National boundaries,
• Copyright, and intellectual property,
• Federal civil servants,
• A policy for personnel and human resources,
• Scale, measurements, and benchmarks.

B. Economy:

• National economic development plan,
• Monetary policy,
• Determine national revenue sources, Federal taxation, and regulation,
• National statistics,
• Intra and inter rivers between and amongst Fed. Member States,
• Foreign trade,
• International investment, and financing,
• Policy for energy, and water.

C. Infrastructure and Transportation:

• Ports and airports,
• Interconnecting roads,
• Transportation policy for land, sea, and air,
• Aviation,
• Postal, telephony,Internet, radio and television frequencies services along with Cyber Security, and data protection; telecommunication, and broadcasting,

D. Security and Judiciary:

• Defence, and nation army,
• Federal police, and national secret service,
• Restoration of order, where there is instability in Fed. Member States,
• Ownership of personal small arms,
• Federal Courts, and Judiciary systems,
• Federal Military Courts.

E. Public health, and services:

• National public health policy,
• National policy for remediation, medicine, and food,
• Immigration, refugees, and displaced persons policy,
• National policy for:
• Archives,
• Libraries,
• Theatres, and stadiums.

F. Education:

• National education, and curriculum mandating examination of High school certification,
• Higher education, technology, and research.

Conclusion: Proposed unilateral amendments is an act of blatant usurpation, and clear power grab, and in violation of the principle political accord, as outlined in Articles 3, 54, 121, and 132 of the Constitution.

Now, to bring this into context, and for the proponents of the amendments to take heed, let us review the intents, purposes, and implications, political or otherwise, of said powers in the proposed unilateral amendments. To be continued [ … ]

Don't worry about hamar and it's parliament do u see PL responding. It's in SFG constitution Pre-existing states are independent untill the federal-state constitution are settled and then harmonized thru BOTH parliament giving it both federal-regional recognition.

These parliament shit their doing has no legal jurisdiction on PL, their just eating 'money' on it and even the I.C knows this as they been shown the 'clauses' in federal constitutions of PL status which SFG and all it's organs have to respect since their govt and federal state organ recognition depends on it if they reject PL status in the constitution, waxay waynayan 'dawladnimadooda'

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

The theories and concept your provided on federalism must be weighted against Somali characteristics.

1. Pre Colonial Somalia
2. Colonial Somalia and it's legacy
3. Post independence Somalia whether civilian or kacan experiment
4. Civil War Somalia
5. Cultural on-ground reality to carve a system that represents their values(clan independence)
6. Historical Economic greviances and disparities regional to capital where ppl taxes, aid, debt was redistributed to 1 city and saw no benefits but only the burden.

Whatever system addresses all those dimensions or majority must be selected. A slow confederation to federal merge over 100 years is practical, a hybrid model is possible where each region has different status/relationship with the SFG, it doesn't need to be universal govt across all if it's not the will of all.

Valid points, and worthy of review.

Let south central have whatever federal format they want,

This was tried during the Arte conference, and was deemed impractical pre Embaghathi / Eldoret, no?

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Don't worry about hamar and it's parliament do u see PL responding. It's in SFG constitution Pre-existing states are independent untill the federal-state constitution are settled and then harmonized thru BOTH parliament giving it both federal-regional recognition.

These parliament shit their doing has no legal jurisdiction on PL, their just eating 'money' on it and even the I.C knows this as they been shown the 'clauses' in federal constitutions of PL status which SFG and all it's organs have to respect since their govt and federal state organ recognition depends on it if they reject PL status in the constitution, waxay waynayan 'dawladnimadooda'

Along those lines, think about the mayhem rogue Fed. leaders could cause had they had access to, or influence over the following in PL:

8,000 teachers,
6,000 civil servants,
4,500 health care personal at MCHs and hospitals,
20,000 security personnel,
1,000 personnel in Courts and Jurisprudence.

To name a few.

 

[DR OSMAN]

Along those lines, think about the mayhem rogue Fed. leaders could cause had they had access to, or influence of the following:

8,000 teachers,
6,000 civil servants,
4,500 health care personal at MCHs and hospitals,
20,000 security personnel,
1,000 personnel in Courts and Jurisprudence.

To name a few.

The SFG isn't still mature, it's still a 'child' officially and born and recognized 2016 due to Gaas ending the transition. We need a similar 'transition' model from confederalism to federalism over 100 years or hybrid model over 100 years with different status/relationship/model applied to different region and their ppl will to end the deadlock of regionalism vs hamarism.

We should also add not only constitutional harmony and mutual recognition between PL/SFG and it's relationship, we must add the milestones that must be reached

1. Public trust/confidence if they hate the govt and don't trust it why should we
2. International confidence not live in halane shipping container
3. Security
4. Socio economic development
5. Rule of law, good governance, strong institution with public and foreign confidence and recognition
6. Constitutional settlement and harmonization

We must be very CAUTIOUS with the South and use the above guiding principle in PL with every govt-technical commitee.

 

[Haragwaafi]

What exist in Somalia can't be called as "Federalism" as those so called "Federal States" ae just "clan" based entities with weirdly shaped borders and the reason why I put qoutations on the clan word is cuz there's no other nation in this world where powers are split or shared between different clans or tribes except in Somalia where we still don't admit to ourseleves that we see eachother as different subgroups or ethnicities which brought the 4.5 political system but we stll like to claim that we're one Somali people when in reality that notion doesn't exist politucal sense.

 

[DR OSMAN]

What exist in Somalia can't be called as "Federalism" as those so called "Federal States" ae just "clan" based entities with weirdly shaped borders and the reason why I put qoutations on the clan word is cuz there's no other nation in this world where powers are split or shared between different clans or tribes except in Somalia where we still don't admit to ourseleves that we see eachother as different subgroups or ethnicities which brought the 4.5 political system but we stll like to claim that we're one Somali people when in reality that notion doesn't exist politucal sense.

We r Somali only outside Somalia not inside good observation and clan allegiance is the cultural value, and sorry all federal models have to accomodate their on-ground cultural narrative not copy n paste fueedal peasantry culture federalism.

Clan federalism addresses every factor in Somalia not only cultural values but historical pre-colonial somalia, colonial legacy of copying/pasting foreign systems, civilian/kacaan centralized state experiment, civil war era and mistrust, regional economic disparity.

It hits all over it and covers it beautifully in a beautiful mosaic of dimensions. You dont have to like it and can list all its flaw, but it's the best system addressing somali characteristics which no other system does other then what 'few' ppl want or 'diaspora foreign cuqdad desires to unite' and over-ride on-ground realities.

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

What exist in Somalia can't be called as "Federalism" as those so called "Federal States" ae just "clan" based entities with weirdly shaped borders and the reason why I put qoutations on the clan word is cuz there's no other nation in this world where powers are split or shared between different clans or tribes except in Somalia where we still don't admit to ourseleves that we see eachother as different subgroups or ethnicities which brought the 4.5 political system but we stll like to claim that we're one Somali people when in reality that notion doesn't exist politucal sense.

What would you have based it on?

Consider the following: In the US, the primary qualifying requirement to create a State was having 60,000 residents, with their being exceptions, for instance Dela ware was created on the grounds of religion to satisfy the Quakers.

 

[Haragwaafi]

What would you have based it on?

Consider the following: In the US, the primary qualifying requirement to create a State was having 60,000 residents, with their being exceptions, for instance Dela ware was created on the grounds of religion to satisfy the Quakers.

I would have based it on regions where the 18 ones created in the 80s become a full governing autonomous states or the old 8 regions that existed in 60s and 70s as I believe that could help Somalia to walk again and rebuilt its lost state institution and Qabil be kept away from political scene in favor for regionalism regardless of what your background as Qabil affairs should be handled by local traditional elders or the community.