Is federalism 'treaty' good or bad for .So?

mohamedismail

Reewin. Lixda Gobol ee Maayland unii leh!
Yeah, it makes sense. I think this applies to a certain degree to JL as well. I didn't expect Axmed Maboobe either to hand over JL's autonomy such as the port being in FGS authority.

Since AS controls large swathes of both JL and KG, it surely makes it harder to maneuver through HSM ambitions. JL/Axmed Madoobe also have Xamse in Xamar, which is why they're more cooperative now and using him to get more from FGS.

But post-AS will be interesting. I can definitely see KG allying more with PL, since both FMS share similar vision of the political structure of Somalia. JL will most likely also assert their autonomy over time, irrespective of the recent agreements.
Shabaab is definitely holding back the potential of KG/JL. Because they haven't been able to move to their capitals. Also you cannot even travel freely from city to city which slows down development greatly.

I'm happy that the country is putting its focus on getting rid of Shabaab. It's what the south needs. HS/KGS/GM/JL will see a lot of prosperity soon when shabaab is defeated.
 

bidenkulaha

GalYare
I agree, and I understand he was giving up more for the national good, which I could not fault him, yet found him lacking. He could have done more sans giving it all up.
I will be honest and say both Laftagareen and Madoobe just want HSM support till their next election. They are far weaker than they were and understand HSM can push them out.

I doubt it has anything to do with nationalism. Laftagareen had a short alliance with Deni and Ethiopia when HSM was being accused of wanting to replace him. Then they came to agreement and he signed everything HSM needed at NCC and left his Deni alliance.

Madoobe has stuck with HSM from the beginning in exchange for I assume for handing over Gedo and suppressing any opposition from Xamar or within UPD to him running again next year. There’s no particular vision beyond staying in power
 
If you look at the constitutional agreement, as long as it’s implemented over time with a strong court system backed by a military (like FGS taking over ports) then states will actually have no revenue.

FGS takes over

β€’ vast majority of taxes

β€’ ports, airports

β€’ federal police, army

β€’ immigration

The combination of security and revenue in FGS hands then handed to FMS’s means dependency on FGS will grow too.
Under this system, say Captain Ahab take over the leadership tomorrow, depletes resources, starves States, wages wars, starting with your beloved State, what is your recourse?
 

Abaq

VIP
If you look at the constitutional agreement, as long as it’s implemented over time with a strong court system backed by a military (like FGS taking over ports) then states will actually have no revenue.

FGS takes over

β€’ vast majority of taxes

β€’ ports, airports

β€’ federal police, army

β€’ immigration

The combination of security and revenue in FGS hands then handed to FMS’s means dependency on FGS will grow too.
You do know that state autonomy is the only protection you have against another Siyaad Barre right? If you give too much power to Xamar, you run the risk of another dictatorship and that is not in our interests
 
I will be honest and say both Laftagareen and Madoobe just want HSM support till their next election. They are far weaker than they were and understand HSM can push them out.

I doubt it has anything to do with nationalism. Laftagareen had a short alliance with Deni and Ethiopia when HSM was being accused of wanting to replace him. Then they came to agreement and he signed everything HSM needed at NCC and left his Deni alliance.

Madoobe has stuck with HSM from the beginning in exchange for I assume for handing over Gedo and suppressing any opposition from Xamar or within UPD to him running again next year. There’s no particular vision beyond staying in power
I do not know about Laftagareen, but I do know how A Madodbe is thinking. There is a bit more to his madness, and he is a bit more complex than given credit for. Let us call it a lapse in judgement, and he did float as much behind closed door.
 

Thegoodshepherd

Galkacyo iyo Calula dhexdood
VIP
That’s due to London devolving to Scotland. If you’re arguing for FGS to devolve to PL so be it.

I personally believe it was a mistake to devolve power to Scotland and has lead to increasing Scottish separatism as they barely feel a part of Westminister politics.

But it’s actually a good example of what I mean. For example U.K. has a Barnet formula for how it splits any spending increases. So one of the few things Scotland is reliant on for London is funding as the only tax raising powers Scotland have is income tax, not corporation tax and VAT for example.

Westminster has a monopoly on violence in Scotland. Scotland is not outside London's physical control, so laws that are passed by Westminster are always carried out inside Scotland.

We all know that the FGS will never be allowed to have a monopoly on violence in Jubaland, Puntland or Somaliland. That is the difference. The FGS is rendered ineffectual when it becomes clear that some FMS are able to flout all laws it promulgates.

You can just ask Marehans and Ogadens on this website if they will accept having an electoral commission based in Xamar run their local and FMS elections.

What will happen is that laws will be passed, they will not be followed by the FMS, the FGS becomes delegitimized, FGS retaliates by stopping foreign aid and development projects, political instability.

Example: FGS sells fishing permit to a Spanish company, Puntland impounds Spanish fishing vessel, FGS loses its mind. That is what will happen, and it is a waste of time.
 

Abaq

VIP
Malaysia sultanates aren't based on "clan" lines as no such thing as that exists in Malay people culture and those sultanates are just old monarachial malay dynasties that have been under British protactorate only for young western educated malays founding a nationalist political movement bring those sultanates under one federally constituitonal monarchy country except Burnai where the sultan was more powerful and influncial.

Indonesia isn't a federal nation but a unitary quasi secular state as only 5 religion are recognised according to the state official ideolgy so Bali region being a predominatly a Hindu Island and a region isn't a major concern for the central govt.

Nothing about those two countries is similar to what exists in Somalia.
Arguably, two of the current states (Jubaland and Puntland) are roughly modelled on two traditional monarchies that pre-date colonialism (the fledging Waamo Sultanate under Ogaden in Jubaland and Tanaland, and Majertenia in the North East). Aren’t such native state structures more deserving of being used rather than foreign imports?
 

bidenkulaha

GalYare
You do know that state autonomy is the only protection you have against another Siyaad Barre right? If you give too much power to Xamar, you run the risk of another dictatorship and that is not in our interests
It’s inevitable anyway. The moment FGS has fighter jets, the FGS has true power and ability to enforce whatever it wants in states.

We should have a strong judicial system and separation of powers. With a lot of independent institutions.

Westminster has a monopoly on violence in Scotland. Scotland is not outside London's physical control, so laws that are passed by Westminster are always carried out inside Scotland.

We all know that the FGS will never be allowed to have a monopoly on violence in Jubaland, Puntland or Somaliland. That is the difference. The FGS is rendered ineffectual when it becomes clear that some FMS are able to flout all laws it promulgates.

You can just ask Marehans and Ogadens on this website if they will accept having an electoral commission based in Xamar run their local and FMS elections.

What will happen is that laws will be passed, they will not be followed by the FMS, the FGS becomes delegitimized, FGS retaliates by stopping foreign aid and development projects, political instability.

Example: FGS sells fishing permit to a Spanish company, Puntland impounds Spanish fishing vessel, FGS loses its mind. That is what will happen, and it is a waste of time.
Again, the FGS having monopoly of violence is inevitable. We’re talking about a future where the commander in chief will have drones and air superiority.

JL have just signed a national election system. On your MX/OG point
 

Removed

Gif-King
VIP
If you look at the constitutional agreement, as long as it’s implemented over time with a strong court system backed by a military (like FGS taking over ports) then states will actually have no revenue.

FGS takes over

β€’ vast majority of taxes

β€’ ports, airports

β€’ federal police, army

β€’ immigration

The combination of security and revenue in FGS hands then handed to FMS’s means dependency on FGS will grow too.
There are many case studies like this particularly in JL. RKB becoming SNA and Danab graduate troops arriving in Kismayo under Farmajo are the easiest to think of. If Xamar could codify a changing of guard in other regions we never would have been in war to begin with.

Its more likely KG and Hawiye states maintain their dependence, JL switches shirts, and SL/PL rejects the entire system outright as they are the most established states.

This all mirrors the relationship of the states to existing federal bodies. The idea of Galmudug raised troops now controlling Bosaso/Kismayo ports although a wonderful fantasy is obviously not going to happen because of a law being passed.
A Madoobe did not wholly comprehend what was being brewed, and shared as much post agreeing to it.
This fits perfectly in Madoobes track record. The philosophy and operation of JL and PL differs but they aim in the same direction more so from function then clan allegiance.

If KG had a port it would act like a mirror to Darood states due to inherent motives.
 
If Somalia had such a council of elders and a system based on traditional models, arguably they could have saved the country from civil war. Imagine if they had the power to β€œfire” MSB and hold emergency elections
See, had ina Sh Madar or X Cabdi Waraabe had been around, this whole shite is SL could have been avoided, which is where wise traditional elders are critical to any future system of government in .So.
 

bidenkulaha

GalYare
There are many case studies like this particularly in JL. RKB becoming SNA and Danab graduate troops arriving in Kismayo under Farmajo are the easiest to think of. If Xamar could codify a changing of guard in other regions we never would have been in war to begin with.

Its more likely KG and Hawiye states maintain their dependence, JL switches shirts, and SL/PL rejects the entire system outright as they are the most established states.

This all mirrors the relationship of the states to existing federal bodies. The idea of Galmudug raised troops now controlling Bosaso/Kismayo ports although a wonderful fantasy is obviously not going to happen because of a law being passed.

This fits perfectly in Madoobes track record. The philosophy and operation of JL and PL differs but they aim in the same direction more so from function then clan allegiance.

If KG had a port it would act like a mirror to Darood states due to inherent motives.
The problem you all have is not viewing things into the distance.

Soldiers are loyal to their checks. In future when FGS has strong financial power (monetary and fiscal) it’ll be controlling SNA across Somalia that will have air superiority. This will create compliant FMS leaders as they will know how easy it would be for the FGS to overthrow them or back a rival. You already sort of see it now with 4/5 states signing whatever the FGS currently wants.

Once that happens whether they were trained in Kismayo or Jowhar won’t make a blind bit of difference. Allowing this integration (which is what the South-Central states have signed) is a death warrant for their independence.

We’re heading to a future where the SNA is no longer just paid 100-200 a month and is independent from a command structure that goes all the way up to the FGS President.

And you’re viewing this in clan terms, while I’ve avoided that in this thread because I don’t believe the SNA will for much longer avoid reforms where it’ll be forced to diversify all ranks and send troops to regions they aren’t from to improve obedience.
 
Westminster has a monopoly on violence in Scotland. Scotland is not outside London's physical control, so laws that are passed by Westminster are always carried out inside Scotland.

We all know that the FGS will never be allowed to have a monopoly on violence in Jubaland, Puntland or Somaliland. That is the difference. The FGS is rendered ineffectual when it becomes clear that some FMS are able to flout all laws it promulgates.

You can just ask Marehans and Ogadens on this website if they will accept having an electoral commission based in Xamar run their local and FMS elections.

What will happen is that laws will be passed, they will not be followed by the FMS, the FGS becomes delegitimized, FGS retaliates by stopping foreign aid and development projects, political instability.

Example: FGS sells fishing permit to a Spanish company, Puntland impounds Spanish fishing vessel, FGS loses its mind. That is what will happen, and it is a waste of time.
A very good example is what is happening with the GGG road project from Garacad to Galdogob, where whilst funds had been approved by external entities, the Fed. gov't in Xamar will not release the funds, and wants to use the funds for political expediency against Deni. Now, imagine if PL's security forces, and/or civil servants were beholden to Xamar, and the current dispute rose? Deni could have easily been dislodged moons ago, ergo why devolved federalism is the answer for NOW.
 
It’s inevitable anyway. The moment FGS has fighter jets, the FGS has true power and ability to enforce whatever it wants in states.

We should have a strong judicial system and separation of powers. With a lot of independent institutions.


Again, the FGS having monopoly of violence is inevitable. We’re talking about a future where the commander in chief will have drones and air superiority.

JL have just signed a national election system. On your MX/OG point

Why difference will FGS having the upper hand in violence mean? Unless they want to enforce through declaring wars, which is unlikely, nothing will change. Several FMS are more prone to reject FGS if they decide to encroach and overstep their authority. The only way you can control is by following in Ethiopia's footstep and fight everyone. That will be the end of Somalia.

Also, you do understand that things may (and probably will) change once the country is secured from AS? I don't think centralism is very popular. No one north of Galkacyo wants it. Neither does KG, nor JL. MX used to be very much pro-centralism, but the recent years have made them see the other side more. JL/KG have limited capability in their say due to their current circumstances, but it will change very soon. You'll see this in due time post-AS. Watch and see.
 

bidenkulaha

GalYare
Why difference will FGS having the upper hand in violence mean? Unless they want to enforce through declaring wars, which is unlikely, nothing will change. Several FMS are more prone to reject FGS if they decide to encroach and overstep their authority. The only way you can control is by following in Ethiopia's footstep and fight everyone. That will be the end of Somalia, once and for all.

Also, you do understand that things may (and probably will) change once the country is secured from AS? I don't think centralism is very popular. No one above Galkacyo wants it. Neither does KG, nor JL. MX used to be very much pro-centralism, but the recent years have made them see the other side more. JL/KG have limited capability in their say due to their current circumstances. You'll see this in due time post-AS. Watch and see.
You don’t have to fight a state, just a leader. We’ve seen it in Farmaajo’s term. FGS’s ability to do that will only strengthen. Farmaajo captured Baydhabo, Dhusamareb, Jowhar on election day if you remember. He tried Kismayo with ENDF but failed. But in future when FGS has full air superiority a few bombings will allow for that easily.

Ethiopia is not fighting a leader but a whole ethnicity. Big difference. Somalis are notoriously easy to use against each other. Currently for example HSM can fund Ciise Maxmuud to dislodge Deni (which he’s rumoured to already have done through AaranJaan).

Now imagine a future where SNA is in PL. Funded by FGS. With air superiority over a few PL police.
 

Thegoodshepherd

Galkacyo iyo Calula dhexdood
VIP
It’s inevitable anyway. The moment FGS has fighter jets, the FGS has true power and ability to enforce whatever it wants in states.

We should have a strong judicial system and separation of powers. With a lot of independent institutions.


Again, the FGS having monopoly of violence is inevitable. We’re talking about a future where the commander in chief will have drones and air superiority.

JL have just signed a national election system. On your MX/OG point

I don't like to listen to fantasies.
 

bidenkulaha

GalYare
I don't like to listen to fantasies.
Arms embargo lifting is inevitable, and likely soon. On the other point it’s already happened with NCC.

We’re talking about the system of government we will be moving to in the long term. In my opinion it’s unavoidable we’ll be moving to a strong FGS
 

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