Is federalism 'treaty' good or bad for .So?

[bidenkulaha]

Whatever amendment is made to the provisional dastuur its clearly not feasible for the FGS to control states who are gaining more and more revenue(autonomy) as the years pass.

None of the factors that gave them their autonomy gets taken away. The peoples opinion, the revenue, the standing military, the political norms, the tribal paradigm, and the foreign ties are all the same. Its more likely KG tries to secure funding through a Baraawe port then accept a Darood/Isaaq class which isnt tied to Xamar.

If you look at the constitutional agreement, as long as it’s implemented over time with a strong court system backed by a military (like FGS taking over ports) then states will actually have no revenue.

FGS takes over

• vast majority of taxes

• ports, airports

• federal police, army

• immigration

The combination of security and revenue in FGS hands then handed to FMS’s means dependency on FGS will grow too.

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

We can keep what we have but turn the currents states into local type administrations.

Currently that’s where we are headed with the constitution.

We aren’t suited to a completely central system as vast majority of funding would go to the centre. Having states split FGS revenue and lead implementation is good way to keep the country progressing everywhere

Could not reconcile these two diverging thoughts, could you? Speaking as to the prevalent, if evident benefits of devolved powers, yet arguing against it, that is a dichotomy of sort.

 

[GaradShabeel]

Federalism is great and is needed

If you're so pro-federalism, and I'm assuming that Maay people also are, why did KG agree to large degree of centralization through NCC? Or do you prefer a centralized federal Somalia?

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

If you look at the constitutional agreement, as long as it’s implemented over time with a strong court system backed by a military (like FGS taking over ports) then states will actually have no revenue.

FGS takes over

• vast majority of taxes

• ports, airports

• federal police, army

• immigration

The combination of security and revenue in FGS hands then handed to FMS’s means dependency on FGS will grow too.

Bogles, and blows the thinking mind.

 

[Abaq]

I would have based it on regions where the 18 ones created in the 80s become a full governing autonomous states or the old 8 regions that existed in 60s and 70s as I believe that could help Somalia to walk again and rebuilt its lost state institution and Qabil be kept away from political scene in favor for regionalism regardless of what your background as Qabil affairs should be handled by local traditional elders or the community.

This is the same flawed mentality that has doomed us to be a failed state and a barely functioning one before that. We can’t deny centuries of Somali history and customs and try to replace them with foreign imports. It simply doesn’t work. Such idealism of the Western mis-educated class of the 60s and subsequent generations they indoctrinated is what keeps us in our quagmire today. Just like the Chinese have Socialism with Chinese characteristics, we need a state with Somali characteristics!

 

[bidenkulaha]

Could not reconcile these two diverging thoughts, could you?

FGS national plan, local administration implement it. FGS raises 2 billion in revenue, splits the spending by state so it doesn’t end up spending all that money in the centre.

Here in the U.K. schools and social care are in the hands of local councils yet the national plans are all Westminster

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

FGS national plan, local administration implement it. FGS raises 2 billion in revenue, splits the spending by state so it doesn’t end up spending all that money in the centre.

Here in the U.K. schools and social care are in the hands of local councils yet the national plans are all Westminster

Under the said system, how does NHS under Scotland fare against Wales?

Scotland manages all its affairs incl. education, NHS etc with zero powers from Westminster.

 

[mohamedismail]

If you're so pro-federalism, and I'm assuming that Maay people also are, why did KG agree to large degree of centralization through NCC? Or do you prefer a centralized federal Somalia?

Not by choice. We don't have a port like other states (PL and JL) and we also don't have full control over koonfur galbeed territories. Like shabeelada hoose which Hiraab control using the sna as a ciidan beeleed when they want.

That has stopped us from being independent and forced us to be centralised and come under the FGS. The day we gain control over 100% of SWS territories and gain ports that can sustain our population we will become less centralised. We will be able to stop relying on the FGS and Mogadishu.

I am very pro federalism and think that's the right path for a stable and peaceful Somalia. But I would not also mind a fair and just centralised FGS given that all clans are equal and their is no oppressive leader.

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Not by choice. We don't have a port like other states (PL and JL) and we also don't have full control over koonfur galbeed territories. Like shabeelada hoose which Hiraab control using the sna as a ciidan beeleed when they want.

Bingo!
Now read along provisions under the Security of the proposed amendments. I shall discuss that later on.

 

[bidenkulaha]

Under the said system, how does NHS under Scotland fare against Wales?

Scotland manages all its affairs incl. education, NHS etc with zero powers from Westminster.

That’s due to London devolving to Scotland. If you’re arguing for FGS to devolve to PL so be it.

I personally believe it was a mistake to devolve power to Scotland and has lead to increasing Scottish separatism as they barely feel a part of Westminister politics.

But it’s actually a good example of what I mean. For example U.K. has a Barnet formula for how it splits any spending increases. So one of the few things Scotland is reliant on for London is funding as the only tax raising powers Scotland have is income tax, not corporation tax and VAT for example.

 

[bidenkulaha]

Not by choice. We don't have a port like other states (PL and JL) and we also don't have full control over koonfur galbeed territories. Like shabeelada hoose which Hiraab control using the sna as a ciidan beeleed when they want.

That has stopped us from being independent and forced us to be centralised and come under the FGS. The day we gain control over 100% of SWS territories and gain ports that can sustain our population we will become less centralised. We will be able to stop relying on the FGS and Mogadishu.

I am very pro federalism and think that's the right path for a stable and peaceful Somalia. But I would not also mind a fair and just centralised FGS given that all clans are equal and their is no oppressive leader.

A port isn’t the reason for being for or against federalism vs centralisation.

JL proved under Farmaajo that it can be independent from Xamar. Yet Madoobe has chosen to support NCC agreements.

Here’s Laftagareen speaking about the federal government

https://x.com/oabraar/status/1602140299102494720?s=46&t=YMii71oYflCm9hVR2B48jQ

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

That’s due to London devolving to Scotland. If you’re arguing for FGS to devolve to PL so be it.

I personally believe it was a mistake to devolve power to Scotland and has lead to increasing Scottish separatism as they barely feel a part of Westminister politics.

But it’s actually a good example of what I mean. For example U.K. has a Barnet formula for how it splits any spending increases. So one of the few things Scotland is reliant on for London is funding as the only tax raising powers Scotland have is income tax, not corporation tax and VAT for example.

Does Scotland perform better now than prior to Devo Max in all areas incl. edu, NHS, standard of living?
Does Scotland fare better now than Wales, and N Ireland?

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

A Madoobe did not wholly comprehend what was being brewed, and shared as much post agreeing to it.

 

[bidenkulaha]

Does Scotland perform better now than prior to Devo Max in all areas incl. edu, NHS, standard of living?
Does Scotland fare better than Wales, and N Ireland?

Scotland fairs much worse in education. Scotland has the youngest population so does slightly better on healthcare and has the highest per capita spending on the NHS.

But I’m not particularly sure why you are comparing to Wales and NI who also have devolved healthcare.

Overall Scotland’s healthcare system is collapsing from it’s peak in 2009 but that can be said of the whole of the U.K.

 

[GaradShabeel]

Not by choice. We don't have a port like other states (PL and JL) and we also don't have full control over koonfur galbeed territories. Like shabeelada hoose which Hiraab control using the sna as a ciidan beeleed when they want.

That has stopped us from being independent and forced us to be centralised and come under the FGS. The day we gain control over 100% of SWS territories and gain ports that can sustain our population we will become less centralised. We will be able to stop relying on the FGS and Mogadishu.

Yeah, it makes sense. I think this applies to a certain degree to JL as well. I didn't expect Axmed Maboobe either to hand over JL's autonomy such as the port being in FGS authority.

Since AS controls large swathes of both JL and KG, it surely makes it harder to maneuver through HSM ambitions. JL/Axmed Madoobe also have Xamse in Xamar, which is why they're more cooperative now and using him to get more from FGS.

But post-AS will be interesting. I can definitely see KG allying more with PL, since both FMS share similar vision of the political structure of Somalia. JL will most likely also assert their autonomy over time, irrespective of the recent agreements.

 

[bidenkulaha]

A Madoobe did not wholly comprehend what was being brewed, and shared as much post agreeing to it.

That hardly makes sense given he’s since signed even more centralisations such as the income tax bill. Which is actually the most significant and immediate centralisation as FGS will be the sole owner of vast majority of taxation leaving states massively imbalanced in power compared to the FGS.

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Scotland fairs much worse in education. Scotland has the youngest population so does slightly better on healthcare and has the highest per capita spending on the NHS.

But I’m not particularly sure why you are comparing to Wales and NI who also have devolved healthcare.

Overall Scotland’s healthcare system is collapsing from it’s peak in 2009 but that can be said of the whole of the U.K.

The reason being Scotland's autonomy to manage its affairs whilst still in the Union places is in a far better position than not. Wales and NI are relevant, for they are not quite as devolved as Scotland, and are still beholden to Westminster.

 

[mohamedismail]

A port isn’t the reason for being for or against federalism vs centralisation.

JL proved under Farmaajo that it can be independent from Xamar. Yet Madoobe has chosen to support NCC agreements.

Here’s Laftagareen speaking about the federal government

https://x.com/oabraar/status/1602140299102494720?s=46&t=YMii71oYflCm9hVR2B48jQ

JL has a port though. It makes it easier for them to be independent.

 

[Abaq]

Yes it's influenced our state model such as senate and federalism and small capital and powerful economic regions. Our High Court, Parliament model, govt model is westminster and british legacy.

We also have a governor general representing boqorka charles, wuxu haysta 'awood' reserve power to save australia in political turmoil hadi siyasiinta heeshin karin ama dagaal loo socodo(national emergency) halka day to day govt affairs shaqo kuma laha.

That's why I promote we give our isimo similar constitutional reserve power role to save puntland in a war or political disagreement ama systemki burbur ku socoda but isolate them from political day to day so they dont become political. It's a wise check n balance knowing politicians in every system and state organ can lead to conflict of interest.

If Somalia had such a council of elders and a system based on traditional models, arguably they could have saved the country from civil war. Imagine if they had the power to “fire” MSB and hold emergency elections

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

That hardly makes sense given he’s since signed even more centralisations such as the income tax bill. Which is actually the most significant and immediate centralisation as FGS will be the sole owner of vast majority of taxation leaving states massively imbalanced in power compared to the FGS.

I understand he was giving up more for the national good, which I could not fault him, yet found him lacking. He could have done more sans giving it all up.

We can not go back to centralism.