Somalia should never be fully ruled by the law of Allah

[Gacmeey]

So what if a state saying they’re ruling by shariah started executing those boys playing football ? Would that be correct ?

No it would not be correct.

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf reported: He would patrol the city at night with Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, and on one occasion they were walking when the lamp of a household caught their attention. They approached it until they heard loud voices inside the door. Umar grabbed the hand of Abdur Rahman and he said, “Do you know whose house this is?” He said no. Umar said, “This is the house of Rabi’ah ibn Umayyah ibn Khalaf, and they are inside drinking wine right now! What do you think?” Abdur Rahman said, “Indeed, I think we have done what Allah has prohibited for us. Allah Almighty said, ‘Do not spy,’ (49:12) and we have spied on them.” Umar turned away and he left them alone.

Source: al-Mustadrak 8198

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Dhahabi

Btw the sentence is contradictory. No state can rule by shariah.

 

[World]

No it would not be correct.

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf reported: He would patrol the city at night with Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, and on one occasion they were walking when the lamp of a household caught their attention. They approached it until they heard loud voices inside the door. Umar grabbed the hand of Abdur Rahman and he said, “Do you know whose house this is?” He said no. Umar said, “This is the house of Rabi’ah ibn Umayyah ibn Khalaf, and they are inside drinking wine right now! What do you think?” Abdur Rahman said, “Indeed, I think we have done what Allah has prohibited for us. Allah Almighty said, ‘Do not spy,’ (49:12) and we have spied on them.” Umar turned away and he left them alone.

Source: al-Mustadrak 8198

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Dhahabi

Btw the sentence is contradictory. No state can rule by shariah.

Your example is of people inside their homes, which is why it’s spying and an invasion of one’s privacy. I gave an example of boys outside in public playing football.

 

[Khanderson]

I’m agnostic so I’d prefer secular. I don’t see the big issues with secularism considering Muslims lives in secular countries happily and freely. But my big issues with Somalia is clan politics. That shit needs to go now!

 

[Omar del Sur]

Where did I say that? I simply gave the ruling of 3/4 of the madhab, which is that those who miss salah out of laziness even one salah should be executed, if they’ve been warned before. As for your example of breaking in their doors and interrogating them, did i say that? My example was what if people in public were to be observed with CCTV, i.e. boys outside playing football. If the time of salah comes, the adhaan is heard, they don’t go pray and then the time of salah ends and they are outside the entire time playing football.

“As long as people are keeping their kufr to themselves”, well if they are missing salah at home that’s one thing but they’re missing salah outside publicly hence they’re not keeping it to themselves. So what if a state saying they’re ruling by shariah started executing those boys playing football ? Would that be correct ?

wait a minute... let's back up a bit.

Firstly, if I'm not mistaken- the position that whoever misses a single prayer without a valid excuse becomes an apostate... I believe that is a Hanbali position. I don't think it's the view of the other three schools.

Capital punishment in the shariah is for apostasy, not for missing salaah. So what you're talking about would fall under the rulings to do with apostasy.

The apostate is given three days to repent.

I don't think there's any madhhab of the four famous madahib that says "whoever has been given warning and later misses a single prayer out of laziness- execute them immediately for apostasy and don't give them the three days to repent".... I would like to see any fatwa ever that says that. I don't think that's a normal view and I don't think that's the view of any madhhab. Firstly, I think it's particular to the Hanbali school to hold the view that the one who misses a single salaah becomes kaffir. But even then, I don't think they hold the view you've outlined.

 

[Gacmeey]

Where did I say that? I simply gave the ruling of 3/4 of the madhab, which is that those who miss salah out of laziness even one salah should be executed, if they’ve been warned before. As for your example of breaking in their doors and interrogating them, did i say that? My example was what if people in public were to be observed with CCTV, i.e. boys outside playing football. If the time of salah comes, the adhaan is heard, they don’t go pray and then the time of salah ends and they are outside the entire time playing football.

“As long as people are keeping their kufr to themselves”, well if they are missing salah at home that’s one thing but they’re missing salah outside publicly hence they’re not keeping it to themselves. So what if a state saying they’re ruling by shariah started executing those boys playing football ? Would that be correct ?

I don’t get what that has to do with whether a land should be ruled by sharia? If the ulama can deduce from the Quran and Sunnah that this is the case and that they classify them as murtads and give them 3 days to repent, would this be a reason to not accept sharia to rule over a land?

 

[Omar del Sur]

I also want to mention- the apostate as I mentioned has three days to repent. I don't know of anything indicating that this is only for first-time offenders. As far as I'm aware, the person can be arrested for apostasy a thousand times and they can get the three days every single one of those times. I don't know of anything indicating that you only get three days the first time. As far as I'm aware, you get three days, period. our dīn is merciful. we want the apostate to get back on the right track, we don't want them to be harmed, we just want them to be "scared straight"

 

[Khanderson]

I also want to mention- the apostate as I mentioned has three days to repent. I don't know of anything indicating that this is only for first-time offenders. As far as I'm aware, the person can be arrested for apostasy a thousand times and they can get the three days every single one of those times. I don't know of anything indicating that you only get three days the first time. As far as I'm aware, you get three days, period. our dīn is merciful. we want the apostate to get back on the right track, we don't want them to be harmed, we just want them to be "scared straight"

And this is the sole reason why I’d prefer secularism. My life and my rights doesn’t belong to no men on earth. I’m a free spirit roaming around and learning the things around me. I have no time for this old school authority game.

 

[Gacmeey]

I also want to mention- the apostate as I mentioned has three days to repent. I don't know of anything indicating that this is only for first-time offenders. As far as I'm aware, the person can be arrested for apostasy a thousand times and they can get the three days every single one of those times. I don't know of anything indicating that you only get three days the first time. As far as I'm aware, you get three days, period. our dīn is merciful. we want the apostate to get back on the right track, we don't want them to be harmed, we just want them to be "scared straight"

One of the best paragraphs I have come across regarding apostasy:

"Apostasy, it must be said, is not just an act of rejecting the Muslim God, for, on its own, it is merely a summative declaration that implies and encompasses certain collective and foundational derivatives. It is indeed the moral implication of this declaration that was at the heart of the matter. Fundamentally, therefore, apostasy is the rejection of the moral instruments that fashion the moral subject. If it is one side of the coin, jihād is the other. Apostasy law intends to curb the moral damage of the Community’s inner sphere, and jihād intends to protect and, if possible, expand the limits of that sphere."

 

[Omar del Sur]

And this is the sole reason why I’d prefer secularism. My life and my rights doesn’t belong to no men on earth. I’m a free spirit roaming around and learning the things around me. I have no time for this old school authority game.

aren't you an ex-Muslim? of course an ex-Muslim will not be in favor of shariah. that is to be expected. it would be silly to expect otherwise from non-Muslims.

 

[thisthatone]

They'd get head tapped the second the mention their a kaffir

And your ok with killing people for that?

 

[IstarZ]

There is a gross misunderstanding and ignorance when discussing Sharia. It has been demonized for so long and misapplied by Muslims themselves that it’s been reduced to hadd punishments and deemed ‘medieval’ and incompatible for this era.

Unfortunately, even some Muslims fall into this type of thinking. Sharia is a moral framework which encompasses all aspects of life underscored by compassion and its objective is true justice. However, for a community to adopt Sharia they must be willing to understand and abide by the moral of the law before the letter of the law. Today, Islam is viewed as a psychological taboo in the Western world and they will not allow any Muslim country to fully implement Islamic law but we know true freedom is only found in true allegiance to Allah SWT and His last messenger SAW and that everything else is an illusion.

 

[World]

wait a minute... let's back up a bit.

Firstly, if I'm not mistaken- the position that whoever misses a single prayer without a valid excuse becomes an apostate... I believe that is a Hanbali position. I don't think it's the view of the other three schools.

Capital punishment in the shariah is for apostasy, not for missing salaah. So what you're talking about would fall under the rulings to do with apostasy.

The apostate is given three days to repent.

I don't think there's any madhhab of the four famous madahib that says "whoever has been given warning and later misses a single prayer out of laziness- execute them immediately for apostasy and don't give them the three days to repent".... I would like to see any fatwa ever that says that. I don't think that's a normal view and I don't think that's the view of any madhhab. Firstly, I think it's particular to the Hanbali school to hold the view that the one who misses a single salaah becomes kaffir. But even then, I don't think they hold the view you've outlined.

No, the position of the Maliki and Shafi’i madhab is that they are Muslims, but are still to be executed if they miss salah out of laziness. Whilst the Hanbali position is they are not Muslims and are to be executed if they miss salah out of laziness.

 

[tyrannicalmanager]

only diaspora who have never been to somalia or a muslim country advocate for sharia from the safety of the west truth is most people are terrified of sharia and do not want it. having your hands cut off for something as little as stealing or being killed for shaving your beard among other things is way too much

no wants live in Sharia hell holes like kuwait, Qatar and Oman instead secular utopia instead of Bashar's Syria

 

[Gacmeey]

And your ok with killing people for that?

People who have rejected Islam after they have believed in it are basically saying no to being a moral person. How can anyone live in a society with that kind of person?

This btw is not a concept only held by Muslims. John Locke, the father of liberalism, understood and accepted tolerance for all people except atheists.There is no gainsaying that he rejects the possibility of tolerating atheists, whom he claims have no motive for keeping rules, since they lack fear of divine punishment.

“Promises, covenants, and oaths, which are the bonds of human society, can have no hold upon an atheist” - John Locke

 

[World]

I don’t get what that has to do with whether a land should be ruled by sharia? If the ulama can deduce from the Quran and Sunnah that this is the case and that they classify them as murtads and give them 3 days to repent, would this be a reason to not accept sharia to rule over a land?

So you support a significant percentage (over 20 %) of the population being killed for missing salah?

They’re not classed as murtads in the Shafi’i and Maliki madhab, but Muslims who are still to be executed for missing out of laziness. It’s recommended to give them the opportunity to repent, but not obligatory and if they repeatedly miss salah out of laziness then they are to be killed without opportunity to repent.

 

[Gacmeey]

So you support a significant percentage (over 10 %) of the population being killed for missing salah?

They’re not classed as murtads in the Shafi’i and Maliki madhab, but Muslims who are still i be executed for missing out of laziness. It’s recommended to give them the opportunity to repent, but not obligatory and if they repeatedly miss salah out of laziness then they are to be killed.

I did not give support to anything nor did am I in a position to give a fatwa. I am certain that the ulama will give a answer in line with Allah's Laws and The messenger's sunnah whilst also keeping the interests of the ummah in mind. This has always been the process under which the shariah has operated in and it is their job.

Abu Dawood (3641) narrated that Abu’d-Darda’ said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) say: “…The scholars are the heirs of the Prophets. The Prophets did not leave behind dinars or dirhams, rather they left behind a heritage of knowledge, and the one who acquires it acquires an abundant portion.”

Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

My question is what does this scenario have to do with the general question of whether sharia should be the framework under which a government and a society operates?

 

[Omar del Sur]

So you support a significant percentage (over 20 %) of the population being killed for missing salah?

They’re not classed as murtads in the Shafi’i and Maliki madhab, but Muslims who are still to be executed for missing out of laziness. It’s recommended to give them the opportunity to repent, but not obligatory and if they repeatedly miss salah out of laziness then they are to be killed without opportunity to repent.

the Maliki view is that the one who misses one salaah is still a Muslim but they should receive capital punishment? can you bring to me where this is said by the Maliki scholars and where they say this is the view of the madhhab?

 

[World]

I did not give support to anything nor did am I in a position to give a fatwa. I am certain that the ulama will give a answer in line with Allah's Laws and The messenger's sunnah whilst also keeping the interests of the ummah in mind. This has always been the process under which the shariah has operated in and it is their job.

Abu Dawood (3641) narrated that Abu’d-Darda’ said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) say: “…The scholars are the heirs of the Prophets. The Prophets did not leave behind dinars or dirhams, rather they left behind a heritage of knowledge, and the one who acquires it acquires an abundant portion.”

Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

My question is what does this scenario have to do with the general question of whether sharia should be the framework under which a government and a society operates?

What does asking a question about shariah have to do with implementing shariah? What kind of question is that…? Everyone has their own Ulema, the Saudis, Shias, Al Shabab, ISIS, Sufis… so whose to say Al Shabab scholars are wrong for killing a significant percentage of the population if they missed salah under the guise of shariah ?

 

[World]

the Maliki view is that the one who misses one salaah is still a Muslim but they should receive capital punishment? can you bring to me where this is said by the Maliki scholars and where they say this is the view of the madhhab?

The Maalikis and Shaafa‘is are of the view that the one who does not pray out of carelessness and laziness, not because he denies that it is obligatory, is to be executed as a hadd punishment, i.e., after death he comes under the same ruling as other Muslims, so he is to be washed (ghusl), the funeral prayer is to be offered for him and he is to be buried with the Muslims. “

Those who say that the one who does not pray is a kaafir and those who say that he is not a kaafir both claim that there is consensus on their point of view; how are we to understand the claim of consensus on both their parts? - Islam Question & Answ

islamqa.info

Shafi’i fiqh text, The Reliance of the Travellers:

- Maalik and Ash-Shaafi'i are of the view that he is not a non-Muslim, but he should be executed by Hadd (i.e. corporal punishment determined by the Islamic Law) (because of abandoning the prayer).

Neglecting the Prayers

Discover the critical Islamic ruling on neglecting obligatory prayers. Scholars agree that denying the obligation of prayer leads to disbelief, while views differ for those who recognize its importance yet fail to perform it due to laziness. Imam Abu Haneefah contends such a person should be...

www.islamweb.net

 

[Omar del Sur]

The Maalikis and Shaafa‘is are of the view that the one who does not pray out of carelessness and laziness, not because he denies that it is obligatory, is to be executed as a hadd punishment, i.e., after death he comes under the same ruling as other Muslims, so he is to be washed (ghusl), the funeral prayer is to be offered for him and he is to be buried with the Muslims. “

Those who say that the one who does not pray is a kaafir and those who say that he is not a kaafir both claim that there is consensus on their point of view; how are we to understand the claim of consensus on both their parts? - Islam Question & Answ

islamqa.info

Shafi’i fiqh text, The Reliance of the Travellers:
View attachment 340622

- Maalik and Ash-Shaafi'i are of the view that he is not a non-Muslim, but he should be executed by Hadd (i.e. corporal punishment determined by the Islamic Law) (because of abandoning the prayer).

Neglecting the Prayers

Discover the critical Islamic ruling on neglecting obligatory prayers. Scholars agree that denying the obligation of prayer leads to disbelief, while views differ for those who recognize its importance yet fail to perform it due to laziness. Imam Abu Haneefah contends such a person should be...

www.islamweb.net

ok I don't dispute what you've brought. but still- they can be given the three days to repent. so it's not necessarily the case that they won't be given the three days and if they are given the three days then it's not as though the ruler is doing anything unIslamic.