Taboo subject. But lets be honest here.

[Khanderson]

White people are more collaborative, trustful, humble enough to seek advice and guidance from people who will know better than they do, care about others, and follow the rules even when no one is looking. It's all culture and all these things matter when constructing a building or even paving a road for example.

Do you think it’s the lack of individuality that some Somalis have? White people are extremely individualistic. So individualistic that when they turn 18-20 their parents forced them to move out.

I think collectivism is what breeds non productivity in some groups. Since they share common thoughts there’s no better change for society. As Somalis we should really celebrate individuality a bit more. Thinking different and making differences to change and ideas.

 

[hopelessMan]

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[hopelessMan]

Somalia has shit geography. Europe doesn’t.

Give north somalia 600+ mm of rainfall then the entire region would have been settled by farmers, and a centralised kingdom would have united it 2000 years ago, and built huge cities and a great civilisation. It already had trade links with persia, egypt, india, arabia, china, romans, greeks.

Many countries have worse geography but even if we give you that, explain why a group of people who are practically the same in every facet, are unable to establish a country with one president? How do you explain being ungovernable beats with dozen "presidents"?

 

[World]

Many countries have worse geography but even if we give you that, explain why a group of people who are practically the same in every facet, are unable to establish a country with one president? How do you explain being ungovernable beats with dozen "presidents"?

Somalis are only the same to people who don’t know Somalis.

Inside Somalia, there are 100 different ethnic groups. And they used to spend the last 500 years warring and fighting each other, stealing camels, fighting for water wells and grazing land.

Somalia is a failed state because it received independence too early, should have received it in 1990. Another 30 years of self governance like that of 1950-1960 would have been good. Why? Because of Somalia’s geography. Nomads can’t build civilisation or run a modern nation state. Had Somalia been wetter then it would be a decent country because qabiil likely wouldn’t exist and they’d have a long history of centralised rule.

 

[Zak12]

Many countries have worse geography but even if we give you that, explain why a group of people who are practically the same in every facet, are unable to establish a country with one president? How do you explain being ungovernable beats with dozen "presidents"?

Is this a joke question? Somalia was established in 1960 and was functional until 1991. If you mean now that is due to terrorism and weak government. Not much different from Yemen or Libya

 

[Zak12]

Somali cities looked pretty developed 200 years ago with massive fortresses and walls, ancient mosques and harbours.

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Prewar Mogadishu was also one of the most beautiful cities on the continent. And much of the underdevelopment / chaotic infrastructure started post-91’ for obvious reasons;

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Xamar was known as Dar Al Islam and the pearl of the Indian Ocean for a reason. Also, how accurate are these drawings?

 

[Midas]

Many countries have worse geography but even if we give you that, explain why a group of people who are practically the same in every facet, are unable to establish a country with one president? How do you explain being ungovernable beats with dozen "presidents"?

It's a simple fact that somalia has some of the worst geography. So does the rest of africa in comparison to the rest of the world. All major cvilizations are built on two things large scale agriculture and cheap transportation . Somalia is one of the most driest countries in the world. If you look at the shabell river in comparison to rhe middle niger which is terrible compared to the danube or voltage. The discharge rate of water which is the most important thing is 11 times that of the juba in the dry season and 30-40 times in the west season. Think about how big that gap is. The danube and voltage are generally 40 times but their far more navigable and the countries they pass by also have far more rain then the middle niger river countries. This is the size of the gap we're talking about

 

[Midas]

It's a simple fact that somalia has some of the worst geography. So does the rest of africa in comparison to the rest of the world. All major cvilizations are built on two things large scale agriculture and cheap transportation . Somalia is one of the most driest countries in the world. If you look at the shabell river in comparison to rhe middle niger which is terrible compared to the danube or voltage. The discharge rate of water which is the most important thing is 11 times that of the juba in the dry season and 30-40 times in the west season. Think about how big that gap is. The danube and voltage are generally 40 times but their far more navigable and the countries they pass by also have far more rain then the middle niger river countries. This is the size of the gap we're talking about

I dint even get into the disease factor of rivers in africa like the jubba or middle niger. The somalis I think called it sleep sickness which was a death sentence for those living near the river

 

[Zak12]

Inside Somalia, there are 100 different ethnic groups

???

 

[World]

???

Qabiil are basically ethnic groups politically

 

[Three Moons]

No offense, but a lot of self-hatred is being cloaked as ‘intellectualism’. There was nothing wrong with Somalia’s geography, that’s a cope. None of the several dozen coastal cities and interior cities would have been sustainable for centuries and been known across the planet as thriving hubs of trade if that had been the case because they all depended on the produce from the inland regions. The tsetse fly cope also never reached us, as we had large horse populations.

There is also clear evidence of advanced water manipulation by medieval Somalis through water wheels, hydraulic cisterns and even aqueducts, all of which supported farms in large swathes of Somaliweyn, as not all Somalis were nomads. Are you guys even aware that as late 150 years ago, the North was still home to major Wildlife populations and many different seasonal rivers? While the South had two standing rivers for a population, that pre-19th century, was less than a million but was still known as the grain coast of Arabia because of the large quantities of grain exports, and all of the meat eaten on the other side of the Red Sea came from Somalia, a literal land of milk and honey!

While you guys wish you were an African Persian slash Roman Empire with cities boasting gigantic Chinese Temples. I’m personally impressed with our ancestors and what they achieved, be it the thousands of years of independence next to waterways sailed by predatory empires since Ancient Egypt, or the fact that they were relevant enough to be included in every ancient and medieval manuscript about the African continent, or that they founded cities that are some of the best examples of urbanisation in Africa, or that they could field armies strong enough to go toe to toe with European armies or local rivals like Abyssinia.

History is a fact, no coulda, woulda, shoulda. No need to diminish your people’s history because of their current situation, when so little has been excavated and researched, and so much is yet to be revealed and STILL the country has everything it needs to succeed in terms of heritage, location, resources and manpower. Disunity is not a Somali invention, the two Koreas are identical in language, genetics, culture and heritage, but that didn’t stop them from deleting each-other in the millions, same with the Vietnamese and others like the Colombians, Syrians, Libyans or the Yemenis, our Achilles heel is politics and subversive interests.

The funny thing is if Somali leaders tomorrow sat down with one another and came to a compromise and Somalia leapfrogged development over the next decades, none of the above Guns, Germs and Steel out-takes would even matter. Its only because of the current situation that you guys feel that they have merit, which is as silly as taking the massive famines in Ireland and Sweden as evidence that the Swedes and Irish could not sustain themselves with their lands, forever, which is a silly thought today because those countries are now flourishing, but it would have had merit a hundred years ago. It would be like being a person’s born in 1905 Europe and only witnessing colossal world wars, one after another and then dying in 1942. That person’s perspective about the average European being capable of peace and unity would be totally warped, yet decades latter there is the European Union.

You guys are basically that person born in 1905, and don’t realise it.

 

[Midas]

No offense, but a lot of self-hatred is being cloaked as ‘intellectualism’. There was nothing wrong with Somalia’s geography, that’s a cope. None of the several dozen coastal cities and interior cities would have been sustainable for centuries and been known across the planet as thriving hubs of trade if that had been the case because they all depended on the produce from the inland regions. The tsetse fly cope also never reached us, as we had large horse populations.

There is also clear evidence of advanced water manipulation by medieval Somalis through water wheels, hydraulic cisterns and even aqueducts, all of which supported farms in large swathes of Somaliweyn, as not all Somalis were nomads. Are you guys even aware that as late 150 years ago, the North was still home to major Wildlife populations and many different seasonal rivers? While the South had two standing rivers for a population, that pre-19th century, was less than a million but was still known as the grain coast of Arabia because of the large quantities of grain exports, and all of the meat eaten on the other side of the Red Sea came from Somalia, a literal land of milk and honey!

While you guys wish you were an African Persian slash Roman Empire with cities boasting gigantic Chinese Temples. I’m personally impressed with our ancestors and what they achieved, be it the thousands of years of independence next to waterways sailed by predatory empires since Ancient Egypt, or the fact that they were relevant enough to be included in every ancient and medieval manuscript about the African continent, or that they founded cities that are some of the best examples of urbanisation in Africa, or that they could field armies strong enough to go toe to toe with European armies or local rivals like Abyssinia.

History is a fact, no coulda, woulda, shoulda. No need to diminish your people’s history because of their current situation, when so little has been excavated and researched, and so much is yet to be revealed and STILL the country has everything it needs to succeed in terms of heritage, location, resources and manpower. Disunity is not a Somali invention, the two Koreas are identical in language, genetics, culture and heritage, but that didn’t stop them from deleting each-other in the millions, same with the Vietnamese and others like the Colombians, Syrians, Libyans or the Yemenis, our Achilles heel is politics and subversive interests.

The funny thing is if Somali leaders tomorrow sat down with one another and came to a compromise and Somalia leapfrogged development over the next decades, none of the above Guns, Germs and Steel out-takes would even matter. Its only because of the current situation that you guys feel that they have merit, which is as silly as taking the massive famines in Ireland and Sweden as evidence that the Swedes and Irish could not sustain themselves with their lands, forever, which is a silly thought today because those countries are now flourishing, but it would have had merit a hundred years ago. It would be like being a person’s born in 1905 Europe and only witnessing colossal world wars, one after another and then dying in 1942. That person’s perspective about the average European being capable of peace and unity would be totally warped, yet decades latter there is the European Union.

You guys are basically that person born in 1905, and don’t realise it.

Dont get me wrong i think our ancestors were admirable in what they accomplishd I think the guns germns steel explanation is very useful in explaining historical realities and shows people instead of assuming their people are inferior that there were geographic limitations in what their ancestors were able to do. In fact thats why jared diamond wrote the book. This not of course to downplay the importance of man in shaping his destiny/history.

 

[Three Moons]

Dont get me wrong i think our ancestors were admirable in what they accomplishd I think the guns germns steel explanation is very useful in explaining historical realities and shows people instead of assuming their people are inferior that there were geographic limitations in what their ancestors were able to do. In fact thats why jared diamond wrote the book. This not of course to downplay the importance of man in shaping his destiny/history.

The Somali people in terms of population for most of history were smaller than Tang Dynasty provincial armies or Roman armies during the Triumvirate. If one bubonic plague had gone ham in medieval Somalia, you and I wouldn’t even exist, in-fact nobody like us would exist, our genetic line would be extinct like the Dodo bird.

Yet people here expect our ancestors to have constructed meaningless monumental structures that in other areas of the world erased hundreds of thousands labourers over the span of decades, we can even look at the modern Gulf countries and the situation of South Asian labourers as an example. That could never fly with Somalis, in the past or today. A sprawling stone city, however, makes more sense from a communal perspective, and one which could be expanded over generations through individual additions.

Our ancestors also did not lack in technology, and we were on par with all of our trading partners, be it maritime, urbanisation, or military. A lot of the Guns, Germs and Steel bullet points don’t apply to the Somali historical experience.

 

[Midas]

The Somali people in terms of population for most of history were smaller than Tang Dynasty provincial armies or Roman armies during the Triumvirate. If one bubonic plague had gone ham in medieval Somalia, you and I wouldn’t even exist, in-fact nobody like us would exist, our genetic line would be extinct like the Dodo bird.

Yet people here expect our ancestors to have constructed meaningless monumental structures that in other areas of the world erased hundreds of thousands labourers over the span of decades, we can even look at the modern Gulf countries and the situation of South Asian labourers as an example. That could never fly with Somalis, in the past or today. A sprawling stone city, however, makes more sense from a communal perspective, and one which could be expanded over generations through individual additions.

Our ancestors also did not lack in technology, and we on par with all of their trading partners, be it maritime, urbanisation, or military. A lot of the Guns, Germs and Steel bullet points don’t apply to the Somali historical experience.

No but that's exactly why we didnt built monumentaal structures or have large tang/roman sized armies . Premodern somalia couldn't support that large of a pouplation . Nobody is going to build a giant city in a place with no major source of water. We were obviously not some sort of primitive tribes. But certain technologies are obviously uncessary/useless for a maninly nomadic society.

 

[Grey Alien]

speak for yourself and your specific lineage bozo

what do you think of my specific lineage, tell me? Im habargidir by the way (Sacad).

 

[Three Moons]

No but that's exactly why we didnt built monumentaal structures or have large tang/roman sized armies . Premodern somalia couldn't support that large of a pouplation . Nobody is going to build a giant city in a place with no major source of water. We were obviously not some sort of primitive tribes. But certain technologies are obviously uncessary/useless for a maninly nomadic society.

How is Somalia capable of sustaining other regions on other continents with agricultural produce (historical fact) but on the flip-side wouldn’t in theory be able to sustain a large population inside Somaliweyn itself? How does that even make sense? Just because it didn’t happen, doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen. If for example the base population that formed the ethnogenesis of the Somali people was 10 thousand in the 1st century AD at the time of the Periplus, and then ballooned to 100 thousand by the 11th century AD, and then grew to one million in the 19th century, that still constitutes a 100X increase over the span of two thousand years and across a geographic landscape the size of Western Europe.

Its more likely that the collapse of Adal and Ajuuran had a negative effect on Somali population growth, as they were major catalysts for expansion, trade and urbanisation. And I’m invoking a ‘woulda’ here, but if they had survived intact for another two centuries, the Somali population in the 19th and 20th centuries would be much larger. Another good example would be the US and Canada, both have massive agricultural potential, giant rivers and sustained peace, but one has a 300 million population and the other has a 30 million population. Their developmental and political histories were different, but that doesn’t mean that Canada couldn’t support a 100 million plus population, in the past or today.

 

[AbdiFreedom]

Do you think it’s the lack of individuality that some Somalis have? White people are extremely individualistic. So individualistic that when they turn 18-20 their parents forced them to move out.

I think collectivism is what breeds non productivity in some groups. Since they share common thoughts there’s no better change for society. As Somalis we should really celebrate individuality a bit more. Thinking different and making differences to change and ideas.

A bit of both is a good balance but when you have Somalis staring and watching you in public just because you're Somali, there's a problem.

 

[Midas]

How is Somalia capable of sustaining other regions on other continents with agricultural produce (historical fact) but on the flip-side wouldn’t in theory be able to sustain a large population inside Somaliweyn itself? How does that even make sense? Just because it didn’t happen, doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen. If for example the base population that formed the ethnogenesis of the Somali people was 10 thousand in the 1st century AD at the time of the Periplus, and then ballooned to 100 thousand by the 11th century AD, and then grew to one million in the 19th century, that still constitutes a 100X increase over the span of two thousand years and across a geographic landscape the size of Western Europe.

Its more likely that the collapse of Adal and Ajuuran had a negative effect on Somali population growth, as they were major catalysts for expansion, trade and urbanisation. And I’m invoking a ‘woulda’ here, but if they had survived intact for another two centuries, the Somali population in the 19th and 20th centuries would be much larger. Another good example would be the US and Canada, both have massive agricultural potential, giant rivers and sustained peace, but one has a 300 million population and the other has a 30 million population. Their developmental and political histories were different, but that doesn’t mean that Canada couldn’t support a 100 million plus population, in the past or today.

While i agree adal and ajurans collapse had a negative effective the main pouplation decreae was becase of the little ice age that began in the 17th century in which for th next 2 centuries somalis and the rest of the horn was far drier than normal. But even when We were exporting grain it was to southern arabia which is yemen and parts of saudi arabia. Neither were particularly rich in fact the ottomans didn't even invest much in yemen because it was considered a backwater .

Also western europe has like 10 major rivers and dozens of smaller ones and receives between 6-15 times the amount of rain somalia gets. There is no way they could have supporter a simialr pouplation .

 

[Khanderson]

A bit of both is a good balance but when you have Somalis staring and watching you in public just because you're Somali, there's a problem.

This is sometimes common amongst most minorities actually. Not just Somalis. East Asians for example take their profile image way too seriously. And actually it sort of pays off because you don’t see negative feeds from their community.
But this some what make them develop a bit of self hate. Where they think their boundaries aren’t being respected. It’s why sometimes they marry out and one to get bit of freedom from their community.

This is definitely a collective and minority issues.

 

[noname_]

It’s not a taboo subject to say Africans had an inferior history compared to Europe and Asia.

Europeans and Asians all acknowledge that it was because they learned and borrowed from each other which made them successful.

Those words will cause Somalis blood pressure to go off the roof if everyone in the continent did the same. What did they contribute with the unlimited resources before Europe came?