Taboo subject. But lets be honest here.

[Midas]

It just occurred to me and I did a little bit of digging I think we're the only cvilization in history that combined both nomadic pastoralism and seafaring. The closest seem to be arabs but the ones who did the seafaring were arabized arabs and not the actual bedouins.

 

[Periplus]

It’s not a taboo subject to say Africans had an inferior history compared to Europe and Asia.

Europeans and Asians all acknowledge that it was because they learned and borrowed from each other which made them successful.

Those words will cause Somalis blood pressure to go off the roof if everyone in the continent did the same. What did they contribute with the unlimited resources before Europe came?

I think Somalia was on pace with the rest of the world up until the renaissance, our main issue was we were underpopulated and very spread out.

But the development of Xamar, Merka, Baraawe, Bosasso, Zeila, Berbera speaks for itself.

Out of the sub-Saharan countries, Somalia is up there.

I would say we even have a better history than the majority of Gulf Arab countries.

 

[Midas]

I think Somalia was on pace with the rest of the world up until the renaissance, our main issue was we were underpopulated and very spread out.

But the development of Xamar, Merka, Baraawe, Bosasso, Zeila, Berbera speaks for itself.

Out of the sub-Saharan countries, Somalia is up there.

I would say we even have a better history than the majority of Gulf Arab countries.

I think if we're talking direct impact on world history. becuase we're on the Indian ocean and red sea and have been active for millenia. We could say somalis have the most imoact out of anybody in sub saharan africa. It's funny how people talk about swahili who were definitely impactful. But somalis were active a millenia before the swahilis formed and are still active today. Plus I think we're mentioned more in outside historical sources

 

[Basra]

How come some European cities 200yrs ago looked better and had better design infrastructure, planning than some African cities now?

Is it culture? Is it below average IQ among our people… what is it? Can’t all be colonisation.

How come we are terrible at governing & building an advanced society? Why is it we do poorly in GDP figures, child mortality, healthcare outcomes & strong institutions?

Why has Somalia only adopted a written language in 1972? Ancient Romans had this on lock 2000+yrs ago and built powerful ships?

Why are our people so lazy, unproductive and prone to violence and superstition?

Small brain huuno. Africans think in terms of SELF Europeans think in terms of legacy - ie their future children

 

[Alara]

Small brain huuno. Africans think in terms of SELF Europeans think in terms of legacy - ie their future children

The same Europeans who chuck there parents into care homes and tell their children to move out when they reach 18?

Liberalism is the new deen for the Europeans for the past 300 years and it promotes individualism, self-interest and greed.

"They think for their future children" they aren't even having children in the first place to even care about-their birthrates are plummeting. Why? Because of Liberalism

Stop giving these gaalos the benefit of the doubt whilst not giving us any. They had the entire continent of North America to rape and pillage, the free labour of African slaves to pick their cotton and tobacco which the profits off funded their industrialisation and modernisation.

Not even including the minerals & resources they stole from Asian & African colonies and the sabotage and preventation of the Global South (which includes Somalia) prospering to ensure their global hegemony continues and remains...

 

[Alara]

With our location and proximity to the maritime trade routes of the Silk Road and Indian Ocean...Somalis along with East Africans have mostly under-achieved if we're being honest.

The Omanis who have no rivers and are nothing but gaajo bedouins were still able to make an impressive empire of their own- even conquering the Swahili States who should have realistically been under our sphere of influence.

They did this by taking advantage of the things I said in the first paragraph whilst WE were busy chasing the tails of those raw meat-eating shoulder shakers but to no avail.

We could have even monopolised and taxed the Bab al Mandeb just like how the Turks did with the Bosporus Straits and even created a city mirroring Istanbul...but thats another issue.

 

[Aseer]

With our location and proximity to the maritime trade routes of the Silk Road and Indian Ocean...Somalis along with East Africans have mostly under-achieved if we're being honest.

The Omanis who have no rivers and are nothing but gaajo bedouins were still able to make an impressive empire of their own- even conquering the Swahili States who should have realistically been under our sphere of influence.

They did this by taking advantage of the things I said in the first paragraph whilst WE were busy chasing the tails of those raw meat-eating shoulder shakers but to no avail.

We could have even monopolised and taxed the Bab al Mandeb just like how the Turks did with the Dardenelles Straits and even created a city mirroring Istanbul...but thats another issue.

Your right we should have just seized some more of bale and shewa and left the rest be we should have just built forts and repel highlander raids instead of campaigning against them in mountain terrain. We could have focused on taking over more beneficial territories (swahilli, kenya, indian ocean islands etc.)

 

[Zak12]

With our location and proximity to the maritime trade routes of the Silk Road and Indian Ocean...Somalis along with East Africans have mostly under-achieved if we're being honest.

The Omanis who have no rivers and are nothing but gaajo bedouins were still able to make an impressive empire of their own- even conquering the Swahili States who should have realistically been under our sphere of influence.

They did this by taking advantage of the things I said in the first paragraph whilst WE were busy chasing the tails of those raw meat-eating shoulder shakers but to no avail.

We could have even monopolised and taxed the Bab al Mandeb just like how the Turks did with the Bosporus Straits and even created a city mirroring Istanbul...but thats another issue.

The same Omanis who were paying the Geledi sultanate tribute? Lol. And really, The Omanis took the Swahili coast after the Portuguese finished sacking and destroying the Swahilis.

 

[World]

No offense, but a lot of self-hatred is being cloaked as ‘intellectualism’. There was nothing wrong with Somalia’s geography, that’s a cope. None of the several dozen coastal cities and interior cities would have been sustainable for centuries and been known across the planet as thriving hubs of trade if that had been the case because they all depended on the produce from the inland regions. The tsetse fly cope also never reached us, as we had large horse populations.

There is also clear evidence of advanced water manipulation by medieval Somalis through water wheels, hydraulic cisterns and even aqueducts, all of which supported farms in large swathes of Somaliweyn, as not all Somalis were nomads. Are you guys even aware that as late 150 years ago, the North was still home to major Wildlife populations and many different seasonal rivers? While the South had two standing rivers for a population, that pre-19th century, was less than a million but was still known as the grain coast of Arabia because of the large quantities of grain exports, and all of the meat eaten on the other side of the Red Sea came from Somalia, a literal land of milk and honey!

While you guys wish you were an African Persian slash Roman Empire with cities boasting gigantic Chinese Temples. I’m personally impressed with our ancestors and what they achieved, be it the thousands of years of independence next to waterways sailed by predatory empires since Ancient Egypt, or the fact that they were relevant enough to be included in every ancient and medieval manuscript about the African continent, or that they founded cities that are some of the best examples of urbanisation in Africa, or that they could field armies strong enough to go toe to toe with European armies or local rivals like Abyssinia.

History is a fact, no coulda, woulda, shoulda. No need to diminish your people’s history because of their current situation, when so little has been excavated and researched, and so much is yet to be revealed and STILL the country has everything it needs to succeed in terms of heritage, location, resources and manpower. Disunity is not a Somali invention, the two Koreas are identical in language, genetics, culture and heritage, but that didn’t stop them from deleting each-other in the millions, same with the Vietnamese and others like the Colombians, Syrians, Libyans or the Yemenis, our Achilles heel is politics and subversive interests.

The funny thing is if Somali leaders tomorrow sat down with one another and came to a compromise and Somalia leapfrogged development over the next decades, none of the above Guns, Germs and Steel out-takes would even matter. Its only because of the current situation that you guys feel that they have merit, which is as silly as taking the massive famines in Ireland and Sweden as evidence that the Swedes and Irish could not sustain themselves with their lands, forever, which is a silly thought today because those countries are now flourishing, but it would have had merit a hundred years ago. It would be like being a person’s born in 1905 Europe and only witnessing colossal world wars, one after another and then dying in 1942. That person’s perspective about the average European being capable of peace and unity would be totally warped, yet decades latter there is the European Union.

You guys are basically that person born in 1905, and don’t realise it.

Not true, tstsefly is present in both the Shabelle and Jubba rivers.

Mixed farming, draft animals, or pack animals in these areas is not possible. What this means is that, an agricultural surplus cannot be created.

 

[Basra]

The same Europeans who chuck there parents into care homes and tell their children to move out when they reach 18?

Liberalism is the new deen for the Europeans for the past 300 years and it promotes individualism, self-interest and greed.

"They think for their future children" they aren't even having children in the first place to even care about-their birthrates are plummeting. Why? Because of Liberalism

Stop giving these gaalos the benefit of the doubt whilst not giving us any. They had the entire continent of North America to rape and pillage, the free labour of African slaves to pick their cotton and tobacco which the profits off funded their industrialisation and modernisation.

Not even including the minerals & resources they stole from Asian & African colonies and the sabotage and preventation of the Global South (which includes Somalia) prospering to ensure their global hegemony continues and remains...

 

[hopelessMan]

Somalis are only the same to people who don’t know Somalis.

Inside Somalia, there are 100 different ethnic groups. And they used to spend the last 500 years warring and fighting each other, stealing camels, fighting for water wells and grazing land.

Somalia is a failed state because it received independence too early, should have received it in 1990. Another 30 years of self governance like that of 1950-1960 would have been good. Why? Because of Somalia’s geography. Nomads can’t build civilisation or run a modern nation state. Had Somalia been wetter then it would be a decent country because qabiil likely wouldn’t exist and they’d have a long history of centralised rule.

Nice mental gymnastics brother lol. We are not the only nomads in the world or even in Africa.
We have countries who have much worse geography in Africa and elsewhere in the world and they're doing just fine. The problem with Somali people is they are stupid because only stupid people kill each other for no reason like we do. Only stupid people refuse to accept governance and all the good that come with it. Somali people will migrate to Kenya, Ethiopia, middle east and the West because they're running from the shithole country they created, and then they support wars and clan fightings from their new host countries.
These people are stupid, there's no other explanation.

 

[hopelessMan]

It's a simple fact that somalia has some of the worst geography. So does the rest of africa in comparison to the rest of the world. All major cvilizations are built on two things large scale agriculture and cheap transportation . Somalia is one of the most driest countries in the world. If you look at the shabell river in comparison to rhe middle niger which is terrible compared to the danube or voltage. The discharge rate of water which is the most important thing is 11 times that of the juba in the dry season and 30-40 times in the west season. Think about how big that gap is. The danube and voltage are generally 40 times but their far more navigable and the countries they pass by also have far more rain then the middle niger river countries. This is the size of the gap we're talking about

Resourceful people survive and thrive in every enviroment. Anyways, if Somalia never collapsed and we never had a war, we could have done a lot to mitigate these factors. The problem is not the geography, the problem Somali people cannot accept rule. The geography factor can only become a problem after you have eliminated clan, wars, etc.. and you're still not developing.

 

[World]

Nice mental gymnastics brother lol. We are not the only nomads in the world or even in Africa.
We have countries who have much worse geography in Africa and elsewhere in the world and they're doing just fine.

Are you sure mate?

Countries with similar geography to Somalia in Africa:
-Niger, Chad, Mali. All have similar GDP per capita to Somalia.

Gulf Arab countries are rich in natural sources like oil/gas.

Mongolia, has about 1.7x Somalia’s GDP. But, was puppet state of the Soviet Union for 70 years who banned qabiil and it also borders China. Also ranks top 10 and top 15 in the world for gold and coal deposits.

Central Asian steppe countries are also extremely rich in national sources like minerals, oil, gas, metals, like Gulf Arab countries.

So there’s no example in the world of a nomadic country without abundant natural resources like Gulf/Central Asian countries that are successful and doing fine.

The problem with Somali people is they are stupid because only stupid people kill each other for no reason like we do. Only stupid people refuse to accept governance and all the good that come with it. Somali people will migrate to Kenya, Ethiopia, middle east and the West because they're running from the shithole country they created, and then they support wars and clan fightings from their new host countries.
These people are stupid, there's no other explanation.

The only low IQ person is you, you can’t even understand that’s just the culture of nomadic people across the world. You don’t understand such a simple concept, and have the nerve to call people stupid.

 

[Periplus]

Are you sure mate?

Countries with similar geography to Somalia in Africa:
-Niger, Chad, Mali. All have similar GDP per capita to Somalia.

Gulf Arab countries are rich in natural sources like oil/gas.

Mongolia, has about 1.7x Somalia’s GDP. But, was puppet state of the Soviet Union for 70 years who banned qabiil and it also borders China. Also ranks top 10 and top 15 in the world for gold and coal deposits.

Central Asian steppe countries are also extremely rich in national sources like minerals, oil, gas, metals, like Gulf Arab countries.

So there’s no example in the world of a nomadic country without abundant natural resources like Gulf/Central Asian countries that are successful and doing fine.


The only low IQ person is you, you can’t even understand that’s just the culture of nomadic people across the world. You don’t understand such a simple concept, and have the nerve to call people stupid.

When you consider it Somalia is extremely successful compared to its African nomadic counterparts if after 30 years of anarchy plus ongoing war, we’re still comparable economically.

 

[hopelessMan]

Are you sure mate?

Countries with similar geography to Somalia in Africa:
-Niger, Chad, Mali. All have similar GDP per capita to Somalia.

Gulf Arab countries are rich in natural sources like oil/gas.

Mongolia, has about 1.7x Somalia’s GDP. But, was puppet state of the Soviet Union for 70 years who banned qabiil and it also borders China. Also ranks top 10 and top 15 in the world for gold and coal deposits.

Central Asian steppe countries are also extremely rich in national sources like minerals, oil, gas, metals, like Gulf Arab countries.

So there’s no example in the world of a nomadic country without abundant natural resources like Gulf/Central Asian countries that are successful and doing fine.


The only low IQ person is you, you can’t even understand that’s just the culture of nomadic people across the world. You don’t understand such a simple concept, and have the nerve to call people stupid.

Forget success and development. Why are the people, you being the first example, so obsessed with clan when it's the biggest thing that's holding them back? You worship uneducated man who shits in the bushes at night and you think our problem is geography. The discussion here isn't even about why Somalia can't develop, it is why Somalis can't accept any form of governance and why do they continue to butcher each other for so long. Shit Geography doesn't explain that.

 

[Three Moons]

While i agree adal and ajurans collapse had a negative effective the main pouplation decreae was becase of the little ice age that began in the 17th century in which for th next 2 centuries somalis and the rest of the horn was far drier than normal. But even when We were exporting grain it was to southern arabia which is yemen and parts of saudi arabia. Neither were particularly rich in fact the ottomans didn't even invest much in yemen because it was considered a backwater .

The Arabian peninsula at the time had a larger population than Ethiopia, so the fact that Somalia could produce surplus agricultural goods to the point that it acquired a nickname as being the ‘grain-coast’ of a completely different geographic locale is still impressive and goes against the theory that Greater Somalia lacked the carrying capacity to sustain a large population. To be honest, our one million population in 19th century Somaliweyn was comparable to Ethiopia’s 3 million population.

Today their population is 124 million (109 million if you leave out the Ogaden region). Divide that figure by three and you have roughly a Somali population of 40 million people in Greater Somalia. That makes the Somali ethnicity one of the largest groups on the continent, comparable to any ‘farmer group’ and with the largest landmass belonging to a single ethnicity.

Also western europe has like 10 major rivers and dozens of smaller ones and receives between 6-15 times the amount of rain somalia gets. There is no way they could have supporter a simialr pouplation .

What do you base these figures on? The maps below tell a different story, and its only logic to assume that two thousand years ago, or five hundred years ago, the situation would have been even better for Somalia before the impact of deforestation and global climate-change;

 

[Three Moons]

Not true, tstsefly is present in both the Shabelle and Jubba rivers.

View attachment 334805

Mixed farming, draft animals, or pack animals in these areas is not possible. What this means is that, an agricultural surplus cannot be created.

View attachment 334808

This is contradicted by historical records and archaeology. The South had permanent settlements, tax-collecting polities, and was indeed producing agricultural surplus to such an extent that Portuguese explorers like Duarte Barbosa in the Middle Ages highlighted that the markets of the coastal cities had an abundance of meat, fruit, barley and horses during the Ajuraan period, and the same was noted by Ibn Battuta, who called the people of Mogadishu basically ‘fat’ because each person ate as much as three people. This is clear indisputable evidence of a strong inland agricultural base sustaining entire cities, and this continued with the rise of the Gobroon and the town of Afgoye.

This can only mean that the reality of the Tsetse fly in parts of the South was a late 19th or 20th century introduction, similar to how Italians had introduced the highly damaging rinderpest in the 1890s that wiped out cattle in both Somalia and Ethiopia. Also, the Jubba and Shabelle rivers’ origins continued across Somalia’s modern borders and into more traditional Somali territory where these flies even in modern times are absent, but where mixed-farming was historically observed. The latter’s ties and trade links with modern Somalia proper were historically robust in both a southern direction and a northern one, because they were the same people.

 

[Three Moons]

With our location and proximity to the maritime trade routes of the Silk Road and Indian Ocean...Somalis along with East Africans have mostly under-achieved if we're being honest.

The Omanis who have no rivers and are nothing but gaajo bedouins were still able to make an impressive empire of their own- even conquering the Swahili States who should have realistically been under our sphere of influence.

They did this by taking advantage of the things I said in the first paragraph whilst WE were busy chasing the tails of those raw meat-eating shoulder shakers but to no avail.

We could have even monopolised and taxed the Bab al Mandeb just like how the Turks did with the Bosporus Straits and even created a city mirroring Istanbul...but thats another issue.

The Omanis were under the Persians and the Portuguese for centuries, while our ancestors kept the latter at bay and nearly extinguished their continental rival, Abyssinia. The price our ancestors paid in the process was that their trade network and cities were significantly reduced in stature and wealth. While Muscat benefitted from their ability to trade under the Portuguese domination. Only when the latter were at their weakest, did Omanis find the opportune moment to shake off their rule.

And its only then that they assumed a role on the East African coast that prior to the Portuguese presence had been contested between Mogadishu and Kilwa;

“…the town of Mogadishu gained such power and state that it became 'the sovereign and head of all the Moors of this coast’ ” - The Cambridge History of Africa - Volume 3 - Page 200

And what is more, in several of the expulsions of the Portuguese forces in East Africa, the Omanis were backed militarily by the Somalis.

 

[World]

This is contradicted by historical records and archaeology. The South had permanent settlements, tax-collecting polities, and was indeed producing agricultural surplus to such an extent that Portuguese explorers like Duarte Barbosa in the Middle Ages highlighted that the markets of the coastal cities had an abundance of meat, fruit, barley and horses during the Ajuraan period, and the same was noted by Ibn Battuta, who called the people of Mogadishu basically ‘fat’ because each person ate as much as three people. This is clear indisputable evidence of a strong inland agricultural base sustaining entire cities, and this continued with the rise of the Gobroon and the town of Afgoye.

This can only mean that the reality of the Tsetse fly in parts of the South was a late 19th or 20th century introduction, similar to how Italians had introduced the highly damaging rinderpest in the 1890s that wiped out cattle in both Somalia and Ethiopia. Also, the Jubba and Shabelle rivers’ origins continued across Somalia’s modern borders and into more traditional Somali territory where these flies even in modern times are absent, but where mixed-farming was historically observed. The latter’s ties and trade links with modern Somalia proper were historically robust in both a southern direction and a northern one, because they were the same people.

View attachment 334823

This is all oral tradition. There’s no archeological evidence that shows the Ajuuran utilised the Shabelle and Jubba rivers. They were only used during the dry season by nomads as a water source. Because who on earth wants to farm with no animals, that’s awful. If the Ajuuran had any agricultural base maybe it was from bay and bakool or imported from eastern ethiopia, where there isn’t any tsetse fly. Why on earth would there be bantu slaves imported if there was no tsetse fly LOL. It’s connected from the Swahili coast to Juba river, and the shabelle river is a tributary to the juba river in high rainfall.

 

[Internet Nomad]

I genuinely despise the people who whole argument hinges on Somalis are dumb Westerners are smart. Do these people know that civilisation go through periods of doom/gloom and prosperity. It’s all based on geopolitics and internal conflict its not somalis are genetically inferior.

Did you guys know at one point in time india was a large part of the world economy

The same india that is again passing the uk but if you had looked at india right after the British colonial era finished they would like they are doomed.