Taboo subject. But lets be honest here.

[Three Moons]

This is all oral tradition. There’s no archeological evidence that shows the Ajuuran utilised the Shabelle and Jubba rivers.

When various local groups across a vast geographic expanse, all have the same story about a former dominant group, both written and oral, and this domination is corroborated by stone works littered across the region, we can safely accept it as evidence.

They were only used during the dry season by nomads as a water source.

Source?

Because who on earth wants to farm with no animals, that’s awful.

Are you claiming that there were no farms in the South at all during the Middle-Ages? How then did highly perishable goods such as fruits and vegetables end up in the markets of coastal cities in such high quantities?

Its far-fetched to claim they came from regions far beyond the Shabelle and Jubba rivers. The produce would have perished by the time a caravan train beyond the vicinity of those cities arrived.

If the Ajuuran had any agricultural base maybe it was from bay and bakool or imported from eastern ethiopia, where there isn’t any tsetse fly.

Well, my discussion with Midas was about Greater Somalia, so that still supports my carrying capacity point.

Why on earth would there be bantu slaves imported if there was no tsetse fly LOL. It’s connected from the Swahili coast to Juba river, and the shabelle river is a tributary to the juba river in high rainfall.

They were simply available, that’s why they were imported. It be like saying why did the Europeans take slaves to America if they could simply use animals lol come on man.

 

[World]

When various local groups across a vast geographic expanse, all have the same story about a former dominant group, both written and oral, and this domination is corroborated by stone works littered across the region, we can safely accept it as evidence.



Source?



Are you claiming that there were no farms in the South at all during the Middle-Ages? How then did highly perishable goods such as fruits and vegetables end up in the markets of coastal cities in such high quantities?

Its far-fetched to claim they came regions far beyond the Shabelle and Jubba rivers.



Well, my discussion with Midas was about Greater Somalia, so that still supports my carrying capacity point.



They were simply available, that’s why they were imported. It be like saying why did the Europeans take slaves to America if they could simply use animals lol come on man.

There’s archeological evidence that the Adal Sultanate held dominance from Harar to Nugaal Valley. Over 100 medieval urban towns and settlements in this interior area.

So where is the archeological evidence of the Ajuuran control of Juba and Shabelle? As far as I’m concerned, there’s no history of urbanisation in Southern Somalia before the 19th century excluding the coast.

“they were simply available” how comes there’s no slaves in the Harar-Jigjiga-Waqooyi Galbeed region then ? because mixed farming is possible here.

 

[Zak12]

there’s no history of urbanisation in Southern Somalia

There were towns found in the south but overall there hasn't been much archeological work done.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00672708309511319

 

[World]

There were towns found in the south but overall there hasn't been much archeological work done.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00672708309511319

Excluding the coast of course

 

[Three Moons]

There’s archeological evidence that the Adal Sultanate held dominance from Harar to Nugaal Valley. Over 100 medieval urban towns and settlements in this interior area.

The Nugaal Valley ruins were only discovered recently. If we used your logic, those ruined towns didn’t exist prior to their discovery because you invoke the fallacy of ‘absence of evidence is evidence of absence’.

So where is the archeological evidence of the Ajuuran control of Juba and Shabelle?

There are records and ruins of irrigation stone works such as wells, dams, cisterns and waterwheels present in those regions which are uniformly attributed to the Ajuraan.

As far as I’m concerned, there’s no history of urbanisation in Southern Somalia before the 19th century excluding the coast.

Now you are shifting the goal posts, from there were no farms to there was no urbanisation, when no serious archaeological expedition has ever been done on the southern interior. In-fact they had only just done the southern coast and the northern coast before the war broke out.

“they were simply available” how comes there’s no slaves in the Harar-Jigjiga-Waqooyi Galbeed region then ? because mixed farming is possible here.

You want us to believe the same day forced-labour arrived in the 18th and 19th centuries is when farms suddenly sprung up in southern Somalia, and that all of the preceding historical records highlighting large quantities of fresh produce in the form of fruit and veggies, highly perishable, were in-fact farmed by Smurfs and elves in some hidden Narnia world in the South where the Tsetse fly could not reach?

Alright, its too sunny outside to spent more time on convincing you brother, so its time to break out this classic;

 

[World]

The Nugaal Valley ruins were only discovered recently. If we used your logic, those ruined towns didn’t exist prior to their discovery because you invoke the fallacy of ‘absence of evidence is evidence of absence’.



There are records and ruins of irrigation stone works such as wells, dams, cisterns and waterwheels present in those regions which are uniformly attributed to the Ajuraan.

View attachment 334831


Now you are shifting the goal posts, from there were no farms to there was no urbanisation, when no serious archaeological expedition has ever been done on the southern interior. In-fact they had only just done the southern coast and the northern coast before the war broke out.



You want us to believe the same day forced-labour arrived in the 18th and 19th centuries is when farms suddenly sprung up in southern Somalia, and that all of the preceding historical records highlighting large quantities of fresh produce in the form of fruit and veggies, highly perishable, were in-fact farmed by Smurfs and elves in some hidden Narnia world in the South where the Tsetse fly could not reach?

Alright, its too sunny outside to spent more time on convincing you brother, so its time to break out this classic;

View attachment 334833

Here is a ruined city in the Nugaal Valley that was discovered in 1893, it wasn’t recent:

"At Badwein, in the centre of that part of the Nogal Valley which is occupied by the Arasama sub-tribe, we discovered extensive ruins of an ancient city, and close by a large tank quarried out of the gypsum rock. The deserted ruins covered an area of about 40,000 square yards, choked up with cactus and aloes, the haunt of leopards and hyasnas. Most of the houses have been reduced to mounds of stone and rubble, covered with straggling mimosa bushes, but here and there the walls of houses were better preserved. We rode into one house, whose walls stood some 10 feet high, and found it divided into many partitions, the building being in the form of a parallelogram, with sides 200 feet long and 100 feet wide. Curious niches hero and there would seem to have been used as fire-places.

The Somalis said this civilised people cultivated all the lands around, and occupied large cities, that they could read and write, and that when their (the Somalis') fathers came to the country, many buildings bore traces of writing which had long since been worn away by the work of time. They called the people " Harli,"

The latter had dug the rocky wells at Kirrid which we saw on first entering the country, and had cut a rude Christian cross in the face of the cave—■ the only ancient sign existing of a rude form of Christianity in the land. We tried to decipher what was said to be writing on the pillar of a doorway ; but it was impossible to make out any letters, as the surface of the gypsum stones, of which all the houses were built, had become much decomposed by the action of rain, and looked spongy, like pumice-stone. We rode with our party of Dulbahantas in amongst the ruins, out of one house into another, and, standing on high heaps of debris, let our eyes range over a landscape dotted with crumbling grey walls imbedded in clumps of aloes and cactus. As we picked our way among the fallenblocks, we disturbed a herd of deer feeding inside the remains of an old building, and everywhere guinea-fowl, of the species called vulturine, scuttled out of our path. We wished much to dig amongst the ruins for ancient pottery, etc., but were prevented from doing so by the suspicion and prejudice of our hosts, who consider any tampering with these places as sacrilegious. There were many old graves, some of which seemed to be built in the form of a cross; they were plastered over with a mortar composed of pounded gypsum and water. The Dulbahantas now make their graves in the same manner, only Moslem in design; always in the vicinity of water, as certain rites, for which water is necessary, have to be carried out. In some cases dead men are carried, strapped on camels, long distances in order to be buried near water.

We much wished to remain some days and explore this dead city, but various sub-tribes of Dulbahantas were very uneasy and suspicious of our intentions, so we thought it advisable not to prolong our stay. They could not understand why we roamed about in desolate places instead of accepting the hospitality of their wandering camps, where the whole place was infested with camel-ticks ; and having seen us working the theodolite, they credited us with designs of presently bringing an army to take the country. They dissuaded us as well as they could from proceeding to tho out-of-the-way peaks we had fixed upon as points of observation, and placed many obstacles in the way, assuring us we should be attacked by savage tribes, and that we were going into a country utterly waterless, that our camels would be devoured by lions, etc. Seeing, however, that we went all the same, and discovered water in spite of them, they gave up the attempt, and we were better friends after."
Expedition to the Nogal Valley
Lieutenant E. J. Swayne
Published in London, by John Murray, 1893

Those records are all oral tradition, until there’s any proof via carbon dated archeology it’s not evidence.

 

[Khaemwaset]

When various local groups across a vast geographic expanse, all have the same story about a former dominant group, both written and oral, and this domination is corroborated by stone works littered across the region, we can safely accept it as evidence.



Source?



Are you claiming that there were no farms in the South at all during the Middle-Ages? How then did highly perishable goods such as fruits and vegetables end up in the markets of coastal cities in such high quantities?

Its far-fetched to claim they came from regions far beyond the Shabelle and Jubba rivers. The produce would have perished by the time a caravan train beyond the vicinity of those cities arrived.



Well, my discussion with Midas was about Greater Somalia, so that still supports my carrying capacity point.



They were simply available, that’s why they were imported. It be like saying why did the Europeans take slaves to America if they could simply use animals lol come on man.

He's chatting shit

 

[Zak12]

Here is a ruined city in the Nugaal Valley that was discovered in 1893, it wasn’t recent:



Those records are all oral tradition, until there’s any proof via carbon dated archeology it’s not evidence.

"The Somalis said this civilised people cultivated all the lands around, and occupied large cities, that they could read and write, and that when their (the Somalis') fathers came to the country, many buildings bore traces of writing which had long since been worn away by the work of time. They called the people " Harli,"

Crazy how these Somalis back then were attributing their towns to others. Little did they know that the Harla were actually Somalis themselves

 

[Aseer]

"The Somalis said this civilised people cultivated all the lands around, and occupied large cities, that they could read and write, and that when their (the Somalis') fathers came to the country, many buildings bore traces of writing which had long since been worn away by the work of time. They called the people " Harli,"

Crazy how these Somalis back then were attributing their towns to others. Little did they know that the Harla were actually Somalis themselves

No it seems like they knew harla was somali.

 

[Kun_Ciil]

I just want to mention aduunyada biliciisa yuu ku sirin.

Civilisations come and go, today a land is powerful but tomorrow it has been conquered and its people cease to exist. Today the west may be aduunyo wise above the rest but a 100 years from now it could be the east or global south that becomes the beacon of the world.

For example , all the things you mentioned could be said about the europeans in the dark ages and the beacon of the world was al-andalus(Spain and the Muslim world.)

Yes we should recognise our shortcomings and benefit and learn from the advancement of other societies..laakin we shouldn't belittle ourselves or put the west on such a pedestal that can never be replicated in terms of material advancement.

The reality of this world is that it alternates as Allah tells us
If a wound should touch you - there has already touched the [opposing] people a wound similar to it. And these days [of varying conditions] We alternate among the people so that Allāh may make evident those who believe and [may] take to Himself from among you martyrs - and Allāh does not like the wrongdoers -al Imraan- 140

And we should know that this worldly life..wealth, power is provided by Allah

Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): O Allâh! Possessor of the kingdom, You give the kingdom to whom You will, and You take the kingdom from whom You will, and You endue with honour whom You will, and You humiliate whom You will. In Your Hand is the good. Verily, You are Able to do all things.

You make the night to enter into the day, and You make the day to enter into the night (i.e. increase and decrease in the hours of the night and the day during winter and summer), You bring the living out of the dead, and You bring the dead out of the living. And You give wealth and sustenance to whom You will, without limit (measure or account).(al imraan - 26 and 27)

Btw i forgot to mention different societies based on different factors progress in varying speeds. The west has benefited greatly from the industrial evolution, advancement in weaponry, colonialism, slavery, the discovery of the America's and continued advancement in the scientific sphere. The west really credit be due was progress on steroids...everyone else is playing catchup.

 

[Three Moons]

Here is a ruined city in the Nugaal Valley that was discovered in 1893, it wasn’t recent:



Those records are all oral tradition, until there’s any proof via carbon dated archeology it’s not evidence.

I don’t get it, your evidence is Swayne’s well known account of a ruined town in the Nugaal Valley, but at no point during his visit in 1893 did he ‘carbon date’ the archaeological remains (impossible because carbon dating wasn’t invented until the 1940s) but still you take it at face value, and don’t question its historic pedigree. Yet demand from me that I provide you with carbon dated proof of what is essentially similar accounts by foreign scholars and travellers of old ruins within the South, and which have a unified local historic tradition to go with it. You demand this, despite the fact that archaeological research in Somalia is abysmal.

All of this still doesn’t explain where all of the agricultural surplus of highly perishable produce came from in the medieval and early modern period that it could sustain all of those settlements on the coast. Long distance caravan trade is out of the question, and forget imports through monsoon shipping. It could only have been farms in the adjacent inland regions.

Your answer to this let’s me know whether there is any benefit in continuing this discussion or whether I should take Keanu’s advice.

 

[World]

I don’t get it, your evidence is Swayne’s well known account of a ruined town in the Nugaal Valley, but at no point during his visit in 1893 did he ‘carbon date’ the archaeological remains (impossible because carbon dating wasn’t invented until the 1940s) but still you take it at face value, and don’t question its historic pedigree. Yet demand from me that I provide you with carbon dated proof of what is essentially similar accounts by foreign scholars and travellers of old ruins within the South, and which have a unified local historic tradition to go with it. You demand this, despite the fact that archaeological research in Somalia is abysmal.

All of this still doesn’t explain where all of the agricultural surplus of highly perishable produce came from in the medieval and early modern period that it could sustain all of those settlements on the coast. Long distance caravan trade is out of the question, and forget imports through monsoon shipping. It could only have been farms in the adjacent inland regions.

Your answer to this let’s me know whether there is any benefit in continuing this discussion or whether I should take Keanu’s advice.

Because you can’t just say Ajuuran have built urban medieval towns in deep interior of south somalia, irrigation works, etc and then not provide even the location. Where exactly is it..? My point is simply that they held away over the coastal regions, nomads and any agriculture was done away from the tsetse fly infested rivers like bay/bakool.

It’s true Swayne’s visit isn’t carbon dated, but it’s a 130 year old account of an ancient city that covered an area of 40,000 square yards.

 

[Three Moons]

Because you can’t just say Ajuuran have built urban medieval towns in deep interior of south somalia, irrigation works, etc and then not provide even the location. Where exactly is it..? My point is simply that they held away over the coastal regions, nomads and any agriculture was done away from the tsetse fly infested rivers like bay/bakool.

Those are the assertions of Cerulli, Cassanelli and other scholars that were active in the South, not my personal words. I even gave you an excerpt. What you demand is individual focused studies on those specific ruins and their locations, rather than the generalised off-hand remarks in their works, despite knowing no serious archeological research has ever taken place in the southern interior, but again this is not absence of evidence. One of their attributed capitals (Qalaafo) was in the deep interior of Somaliweyn, but it has never been properly researched.

Your Ajuraan side-quest aside, I noticed that you keep sidestepping this part of my post which contradicts your original argument;

“All of this still doesn’t explain where all of the agricultural surplus of highly perishable produce came from in the medieval and early modern period that it could sustain all of those settlements on the coast. Long distance caravan trade is out of the question, and forget imports through monsoon shipping. It could only have been farms in the adjacent inland regions.”

There is zero incentive on the part of foreign scholars and the locals to fabricate ruins of irrigated channels, cisterns, and wells in the vicinity of the Shabelle and Juba rivers, and uniformly attribute them to a single fallen power, nor would there be any incentive for medieval travellers to lie about the agricultural surplus witnessed in the coastal markets of cities on the southern coast.

It’s true Swayne’s visit isn’t carbon dated, but it’s a 130 year old account of an ancient city that covered an area of 40,000 square yards.

Without recent archaeological research confirming a medieval origin you couldn’t 100% attribute those ruins to the Adal Empire and the related Harla, though local traditions were always spot on. You deny this traditional knowledge in the case of the locals in the South with regards to the ruins in their regions.

 

[World]

Those are the assertions of Cerulli, Cassanelli and other scholars that were active in the South, not my personal words. I even gave you an excerpt. What you demand is individual focused studies on those specific ruins and their locations, rather than the generalised off-hand remarks in their works, despite knowing no serious archeological research has ever taken place in the southern interior, but again this is not absence of evidence. One of their attributed capitals (Qalaafo) was in the deep interior of Somaliweyn, but it has never been properly researched.

Your Ajuraan side-quest aside, I noticed that you keep sidestepping this part of my post which contradicts your original argument;

“All of this still doesn’t explain where all of the agricultural surplus of highly perishable produce came from in the medieval and early modern period that it could sustain all of those settlements on the coast. Long distance caravan trade is out of the question, and forget imports through monsoon shipping. It could only have been farms in the adjacent inland regions.”

There is zero incentive on the part of foreign scholars and the locals to fabricate ruins of irrigated channels, cisterns, and wells in the vicinity of the Shabelle and Juba rivers, and uniformly attribute them to a single fallen power, nor would there be any incentive for medieval travellers to lie about the agricultural surplus witnessed in the coastal markets of cities on the southern coast.



Without recent archaeological research confirming a medieval origin you couldn’t 100% attribute those ruins to the Adal Empire and the related Harla, though local traditions were always spot on. You deny this traditional knowledge in the case of the locals in the South with regards to the ruins in their regions.

No, my point was just that Tsetse fly is present in both Juba and Shabelle river.

And in response to that, you said that tsetse fly only came in the 20th century ?? Which is completely ludicrous.

You can see it comes from Lamu, which is the district most affected by tsetse fly in the entire Kenya. Badhaadhe district in Jubbaland is infested with tsetse fly as well, it has the most rainfall in all of Somalia and is the most forested. The distance between Badhaadhe and the Jubba river is very short, only 170km. And the Shabelle river is connected as a tributary of the Jubba river.

Tsetse fly has been in Shabelle and Jubba forever, there's even evidence it used to exist as far north as Ancient Egypt.

So mixed farming in these two rivers was not possible for the Ajuuran, who couldn't have utilized it. It was heavily wooded, forested, inhospitable, and impossible for nomads who only used it as a water source during the dry season.

Only exception is Bay and Bakool, where rainfed mixed farming is possible. If Ajuuran had any agricultural surplus, it was from here.

 

[Moholin01]

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[Zak12]

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List of Somalis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A basic five second google search would prove you wrong

 

[Three Moons]

No, my point was just that Tsetse fly is present in both Juba and Shabelle river.

You insinuated that the Tsetse fly had the same effect on the Somali peninsula in terms of civilisational capabilities as it did in other parts of Africa. I successfully countered this.

And in response to that, you said that tsetse fly only came in the 20th century ?? Which is completely ludicrous.

Then why do scholars highlight instances of the spread of Tsetse fly occurring post-war in the early 20th century if it’s so ludicrous?:

View attachment 334915

You can see it comes from Lamu, which is the district most affected by tsetse fly in the entire Kenya. Badhaadhe district in Jubbaland is infested with tsetse fly as well, it has the most rainfall in all of Somalia and is the most forested. The distance between Badhaadhe and the Jubba river is very short, only 170km. And the Shabelle river is connected as a tributary of the Jubba river.

And the Jubba and Shabelle rivers extend all the way into the Ethiopian highland basins, why did those pesky little flies stop short at a specific geographic concentration in Somalia if they weren’t recent and unnatural to this habitat?

Tsetse fly has been in Shabelle and Jubba forever, there's even evidence it used to exist as far north as Ancient Egypt.

You can’t take Ancient Egypt and then extrapolate that on Somalia. There is evidence of Tsetse flies at one point having been present in Aden, Yemen, does that mean I can now teleport them to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia?

So mixed farming in these two rivers was not possible for the Ajuuran, who couldn't have utilized it. It was heavily wooded, forested, inhospitable, and impossible for nomads who only used it as a water source during the dry season.

And yet there is evidence of ruins of advanced agricultural practices utilising both rivers, and sustaining entire cities but I forgot unless individual studies are published on those ruins, you will not even entertain their existence.

Only exception is Bay and Bakool, where rainfed mixed farming is possible. If Ajuuran had any agricultural surplus, it was from here.

And what scholarly evidence do you base this on? I have noticed that most of your arguments are based on your own theories and assertions.