The key to success for any Somali hungry for it is to live in a city with very few or no Somalis.

[Burhan]

A Somali Canadian is the Minister of Immigration and Refugees, it's safe to say that position trumps everything you just named.

Only recently with the progressive prime minister you got there. Which is good. I hope the best for them. But America is good and better for Somalis.

 

[bluebird]

i actually agree, it probably might affect those on the borderline like a suburban kid with friends in the hood or something. but u gotta understand, somalis in the west are for the most part already immersed in those environments, they live in some of the worst neighbourhoods

the ones who get into trouble would have done so, hip hop or no hip hop. who needs hip hop when the stories they tell play out in front of u every day

it depends on where they live. I grew up in a neighborhood that was ghetto for sure, but not hopelessly lost. they still put pretty much everything out there to ensure that anyone who wanted to could succeed. scholarships, free after school programs, sports all to make sure underprivileged kids had the chance to succeed. but a lot of the idiot kids, somali and aa think what they hear in music will get them far- and so a lot of them get into petty drug dealing, robbing, making music videos about it. although environment has a play you can't really say that music doesn't push them over the edge and make it seem cool to them. the sad part is these guys are making millions off of these kids who don't realize how little their chances are of becoming a drug kingpin.

 

[Tramo]

Think about this: how exactly did this notion of side-chicks become a cultural phenomenon and infidelity rates soared within a certain community over the past 2 decades? You now have a lot more women being silently accepting of arrangements they would have never tolerated just 20 years ago. Did music create that? Of course not, but it certainly helped normalize it and make it culturally palatable. The effects of that music has been quite clear.




The thing about metalheads and that sub-culture is that, at the end of the day, that is really all it is. "White" culture is not synonymous with that. It is not a lifestyle. That's what makes it so easy for one to discard of it after listening to it. On the other hand, when the average person thinks about black AA culture what is the first thing that comes to mind? Hip hop. It forms such a large part of that culture to the point that kids and people who don't enjoy listening to it are ostracized and not really seen as "black".


So as far as that analogy is concerned, apples and oranges sxb. You're right that the music is not created in a vacuum and the product of a particular vacuum, but there is such a thing as a feedback loop. The music, in turn, helps create even more dysfunction and chaos, which in turn helps create even more of this music and your feedback loop is complete.

i actually agree with u for the most part, u make a good point especially about how hip hop is associated with black culture...it's more than just another genre of music

im not saying the music is completely blameless btw, it definitely feeds into the problem, but on the list of root causes it's way down the list. drugs and the war on them are far and away #1 followed by gentrification/segregation. if ur a new refugee, u have almost no chance of living anywhere other than a ghetto so most somalis have an uphill task from the jump

 

[CaptainMajid]

It must be Canada problem mostly. For some reason, Somali families who opted to move there in early 1990s had no plan to raise their kids as Somalis with culture. The US has many successful stories by comparison for Somalis who opted to stay put at the same time period in late 1990s. Somalis in Minnesota made inroads into all facets of profession and you can now find:

- Somali doctors
- Somali Engineers
- Somali Truck Owners
- Somali businesses
- Somali Legislator
- Somali lawyers
- Two decent Somali malls
- Somali Quranic Schools that teach culture well
- Somali immigration officers
- Nurses, Dental hygienist, lab technicians

Along side these success stories, you will see alcoholics and drug addicts. They sure don't influence the Somali image in Minnesota because the good Somalis beat them to shaping the Somali image in the psyche of Minnesotans who matter. From top government officials to Academia, nothing but praise.

There is benefit to an established community which has variety of professionals. Any Somali can chart their future and curve a place for them in any city Somalis live. But Canada, the Somalis who went there were low class or something, neither cultured well in the nomadic tradition that instills dignity in oneself nor anything else that made someone live a decent life without joining the bottom of the communities they chose to live in.

I am sure there are success Somali stories in Canada, but their stories don't match the one in America. And please, don't even bring up England and Euro-trash Somalis, these ones are better off wiped out including their religious fucks.

All of the above exists in Canada as well, but you are relying way too much on anecdote. If you look at outcomes in terms of income and employment, Somali-Americans arent anywhere near the top. They are improving though and making inroads. Its the same to varying degrees elsewhere.

Also the reason Govt officials respect the community, is because its organized politically. They are an important voting bloc, so of course they must be appealed to. Its not just about achievement.

 

[Apollo]

I have never lived in a city with more than a few hundred Somalis. Excluding Somalia itself of course.

 

[Gambar]

Only recently with the progressive prime minister you got there. Which is good. I hope the best for them. But America is good and better for Somalis.

Before that he was elected as an MP, American Somalis don't even have a Congressman/woman working in Washington.

They have city councilor and a state level legislator but no one working in the capitol. Being a minister is a cabinet level position that's a very high level of power.

 

[Insomnia]

I agree that cultural capital is important for poor people. If you see my other posts in this thread, I basically echoed the same thread.

However, cultural capital is not easy to acquire for people arrived in Somalis position. You guys only hone down on "hiphop" but I think Somali geeljire culture in general translates poorly to the West. Its why Somalis who arrived as refugees uniformly perform poorly in these early generations, even in places w/o "blacks" and major hip-hop influence.

Also to show you why narrowing it down to "black culture" etc is a very simple argument, consider this:

I didn't narrow it to only culture there are several factors, but culture is very much an important factor in what is keeping them back.

Who said anything about geeljire culture? are you stereotyping our culture or something? . Somalis who keep their culture intact and maintain their Ethnic identity are doing the best statistically speaking in educational system..

 

[Insomnia]

High school students from Black immigrant populations enroll in selective colleges at a higher rate than U.S.-born Blacks and Whites, because they have greater access to resources that influence postsecondary success, say the authors of a new study.


In their new study, published in the journal Sociology of Education, Dr. Pamela R. Bennett, an assistant professor of sociology at Johns Hopkins University, and Dr. Amy Lutz, an assistant professor of sociology at Syracuse University, tracked the enrollment rates for White, native Black and immigrant Black high school students into community colleges, historically Black institutions, four-year non-selective and four-year selective colleges and universities.


“The most important finding of the study is the [reality] that that both third- and later-generation African-Americans and first- and second-generation (immigrant) Blacks are more likely than similar Whites to attend college, including selective colleges,” says Bennett who is the report’s lead researcher.




Their findings reveal that immigrant Blacks or Blacks with immigrant origins enroll in all postsecondary institutions at a greater rate than native-born Blacks and Whites. Moreover, the report indicates that selective colleges enroll nearly four times as many Black immigrants, at 9.2 percent, than native-born Blacks, at 2.4 percent, and Whites, at 7.3 percent. Enrollment among both groups of Blacks in two-year colleges and four-year non-selective schools were virtually equal, teetering, respectively, at 41 percent and 30 percent.


But immigrant Blacks do not value education more, and they are not outperforming native Blacks academically, says Bennett.


“When we compare immigrant Blacks to African-Americans from similar family socioeconomic backgrounds, we find no significant differences between them in their chances of attending college,” says Bennett. “The overall differences we observe are due to differences in their family resources, not because immigrant Blacks are out-performing African-Americans.”


Adds Bennett: “Our findings indicate that [immigrant Blacks] have greater resources, in the form of family structure and private school attendance that are universally helpful in providing opportunities to go to college.”


According to the data, both groups of Blacks are disadvantaged relative to Whites, yet there are important differences between native and immigrant Blacks that could explain the prevalence of immigrant Blacks at selective schools. A larger percentage of immigrant Blacks than native Blacks come from two-parent families and private schools. And nationally both Afro-Caribbeans and Africans have higher household incomes than native Blacks, while African immigrants have higher levels of educational attainment than both native Blacks and Whites. http://diverseeducation.com/article/12419/

Explain to me how AAs and Latinos are being being outscored by a bunch of refugees that came here a decade ago. How are we Somalis doing better then them in the educational system? if its not cultural.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/alarming-new-test-score-gap-discovered-in-seattle-schools/

. Testing in Seattle schools proves that East African students out perform both African Americans and even native English speaking latinos. Keep in mind that the average IQ for African Americans in Washington state is 94, the highest IQ African American population in the US. Their performance above American blacks (labeled as “English-speaking” blacks) defies the common sociologist explanation that higher achieving black immigrants are simply the most driven members of their source populations

To sum it up, if you wont read, this shows that AA's are outperformed by Caribbeans and Africans in the United States. But more interestingly, the study finds they value education at similar rates. They attribute the difference in the United States, to income and resources of African immigrants.

The irony of all this, is the same "Jamaican culture" you are isolating as the cause of the ills, hasn't harmed Caribbeans outcomes in the United States. Are they simply making better choices there?

This is unrepresentative. The Jamaicans and Africans in the United States are Self selected immigrant groups there is no surprise they outperform AAs.

 

[CaptainMajid]

Explained to me how AAs and Latinos are being being outscored by a bunch of refugees that came here a decade ago. How are we Somali doing better then them in the educational system?

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/alarming-new-test-score-gap-discovered-in-seattle-schools/

. Testing in Seattle schools proves that East African students out perform both African Americans and even native English speaking latinos. Keep in mind that the average IQ for African Americans in Washington state is 94, the highest IQ African American population in the US. Their performance above American blacks (labeled as “English-speaking” blacks) defies the common sociologist explanation that higher achieving black immigrants are simply the most driven members of their source populations





This is unrepresentative. The Jamaicans and Africans in the United States are Self selected immigrant groups there is no surprise they outperform AAs.

LOL why are Jamaicans in the United States unrepresentative of their culture? Self-selection has to do with credentials and education experience, economic immigrants do not fill out cultural tests in their application forms ( not yet at least).

You seem to struggle to address this obvious gap in your logic.

BTW there are far more Jamaicans in the United States than there are in Canada. If culture is the most relevant factor, it would suggest the larger Jamaican-American community would fare similar to its Canadian counterparts.

You also seem to be moving back and forth in your arguments. For example, you cite the Cardiff example to show Somali cultural is actually good for social capital but you are only comparing within the Somali community. Compare Somali achievement to Cardiff's immigrants at large ( including those who held on to their culture) and they're faring poorly? Why? I dont think its a handicap on its own, nor is it a big enough advantage that will exceed class constraints. The numbers surely dont bear that. Surely you realize cultural capital is associated with the dominant culture?

 

[CaptainMajid]

So @Insomnia if I follow correctly, you are arguing the achievement gap is genetic now too? Yet you discount how people with similar genes (Caribbeans,West Africans) perform well in the U.S.?

The fact they are economic immigrants, doesnt mean they have a different genetic background


You are going into Breitbart territory now, cherry-picking numbers and examples to justify arguments about inferiority.

 

[Insomnia]

LOL why are Jamaicans in the United States unrepresentative of their culture? Self-selection has to do with credentials and education experience, economic immigrants do not fill out cultural tests in their application forms ( not yet at least)

You seem to struggle to address this obvious gap in your logic.

BTW there are far more Jamaicans in the United States than there are in Canada. If culture is the most relevant factor, it would suggest the larger Jamaican-American community would fare similar to its Canadian counterparts.

You also seem to be moving back and forth in your arguments. For example, you cite the Cardiff example to show Somali cultural is actually good for social capital but you are only comparing within the Somali community. Compare Somali achievement to Cardiff's immigrants at large ( including those who held on to their culture) and they're faring poorly? Why? I dont think its a handicap on its own, nor is it an advantage.

Self selected means it is the creme of the crop of Jamaicans that voluntarily up and leave & head to the United States . Because Jamaica doesn't have enough jobs for it's skilled citizens. They are not holistically representative.

In the UK and Canada its a different story for obvious reasons ''Culture''.

I am not moving back and forth in my argument. You are trying to argue for the sake of it. If its not culture related why are a group refugees who came there a decade ago outperforming AAs and English speaking Latinos who have been there for hundreds of years? We are not self selected or skilled migrants or english speaking.

It has nothing to do with Cardiff , it had everything to do with the fact that the Somalis who spoke their language , had their deen iyo dhaqan intact did better academically then the ones out copying degenerate western hood culture.

Yes all i really need to do is compare within the Somali community.

I can say it is the same thing goes for Arab youth according to research, the ones who dissociate from their culture and reject their identity suffer the most socially and academically.

 

[Insomnia]

So @Insomnia if I follow correctly, you are arguing the achievement gap is genetic now too?

Yes their brains evolved from Apes that is why they are retarded. I forgot to add this factor.


Naw JK

 

[jugjugwacwac]

Explain to me how AAs and Latinos are being being outscored by a bunch of refugees that came here a decade ago. How are we Somalis doing better then them in the educational system? if its not cultural.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/alarming-new-test-score-gap-discovered-in-seattle-schools/

. Testing in Seattle schools proves that East African students out perform both African Americans and even native English speaking latinos. Keep in mind that the average IQ for African Americans in Washington state is 94, the highest IQ African American population in the US. Their performance above American blacks (labeled as “English-speaking” blacks) defies the common sociologist explanation that higher achieving black immigrants are simply the most driven members of their source populations





This is unrepresentative. The Jamaicans and Africans in the United States are Self selected immigrant groups there is no surprise they outperform AAs.

Along with culture innate IQ differences between ethnic/racial groups also help to account for achievement gaps on standardized tests.

 

[CaptainMajid]

Self selected means it is the creme of the crop of Jamaicans that voluntarily up and leave & head to the United States . Because Jamaica doesn't have enough jobs for it's skilled citizens. They are not holistically representative.

In the UK and Canada its a different story for obvious reasons ''Culture''.

I am not moving back and forth in my argument. You are trying to argue for the sake of it. If its not culture related why are a group refugees who came there a decade ago outperforming AAs and English speaking Latinos who have been there for hundreds of years? We are not self selected or skilled migrants or english speaking.

It has nothing to do with Cardiff , it had everything to do with the fact that the Somalis who spoke their language , had their deen iyo dhaqan intact did better academically then the ones out copying degenerate western hood culture.

Yes all i really need to do is compare within the Somali community.

I can say it is the same thing goes for Arab youth according to research, the ones who dissociate from their culture and reject their identity suffer the most socially and academically.

Self-selected and skilled, does not mean they do not have Caribbean/Nigerian culture. small percentage of self-selected Somali immigrants (students or diplomats in the West who claimed asylum) also outperform other Somali immigrants at large. Doesnt mean they didnt have Somali culture.


In general this whole topic isnt a simple one and cant be reduced to "hip-hop/Jamaicans" as the cause rather than a symptom. Thats my main point.

 

[jugjugwacwac]

Self-selected and skilled, does not mean they do not have Caribbean/Nigerian culture. small percentage of self-selected Somali immigrants (students or diplomats in the West who claimed asylum) also outperform other Somali immigrants at large. Doesnt mean they didnt have Somali culture.


In general this whole topic isnt a simple one and cant be reduced to "hip-hop/Jamaicans" as the cause rather than a symptom. Thats my main point.

Jamaican culture is not a monolith. The Jamaican elite are not only more intelligent but also have a more refined culture than their lower class Jamaican counterparts. The Jamaican lower class culture is rife with violence, drug abuse, murder, promiscuity and passa passa parties or what ever they call those parties where they jump of the stage while twerking. As for the Nigerian elite who emigrate to North America, they are the cream of the crop of their society, meaning they have a higher IQ than ur average Nigerian, plain and simple. To discount IQ in any conversation pertaining to achievement is ludicrous.

 

[CaptainMajid]

Jamaican culture is not a monolith. The Jamaican elite are not only more intelligent but also have a more refined culture than their lower class Jamaican counterparts. The Jamaican lower class culture is rife with violence, drug abuse, murder, promiscuity and passa passa parties or what ever they call those parties where they jump of the stage while twerking. As for the Nigerian elite who emigrate to North America, they are the cream of the crop of their society, meaning they have a higher IQ than ur average Nigerian, plain and simple. To discount IQ in any conversation pertaining to achievement is ludicrous.

You guys talk about Jamaican/AA/Nigerian culture as though its a monolith.

Also its interesting you dont deploy these IQ/Genetics arguments for cadaan people.

From the UK:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/mar/22/white-british-children-outperformed-by-minorities

Nine minority groups of children are above the average, including Bangladeshi, Ghanaian, Indian, Sierra Leonean and Vietnamese, data reveals.

Do British whites have inferior genetics to American whites?

From the same article

But the report adds that some groups, such as Portuguese, Congolese and Yemeni students, are underachieving.

This topic isnt as simple as guys want it to seem.

 

[Insomnia]

Self-selected and skilled, does not mean they do not have Caribbean/Nigerian culture. small percentage of self-selected Somali immigrants (students or diplomats in the West who claimed asylum) also outperform other Somali immigrants at large. Doesnt mean they didnt have Somali culture.


In general this whole topic isnt a simple one and cant be reduced to "hip-hop/Jamaicans" as the cause rather than a symptom. Thats my main point.

Black culture is supposed to be playing basketball and listening to Hip Hop, pants hanging of your bum. That might be called inner city urban culture.

If you come from the middle class Caribbean background your recreational activities will, just as your European counterpart, include tennis and even surfing.

It is not black or white is the culture of class and access to sports with a higher financial entry requirement. So the statement about so-called "black" cultures is a statement about a comfort with poverty defining your so called'' Black culture."

This hood bulshitt is an engineered culture in the West, which people are made to conform to. Super destructive.

A tennis ball and a basketball have no race attached. Speaking good English and walking properly are not about race; but socialization and education. Lack of, produces slouching, and slang.

 

[CaptainMajid]

Black culture is supposed to be playing basketball and listening to Hip Hop, pants hanging of your bum. That might be called inner city urban culture.

If you come from the middle class Caribbean background your recreational activities will, just as your European counterpart, include tennis and even surfing.

It is not black or white is the culture of class and access to sports with a higher financial entry requirement. So the statement about so-called "black" cultures is a statement about a comfort with poverty defining your so called'' Black culture."

This hood bulshitt is an engineered culture in the West, which people are made to conform to. Super destructive.

A tennis ball and a basketball have no race attached. Speaking good English and walking properly are not about race; but socialization and education. Lack of, produces slouching, and slang.

OK, we agree much more than we disagree here. Id only note that culture is very fluid. I assure you the children of Middle-Class Caribbeans in the States like hiphop etc but it isnt a ruinous choice. However conforming to those stereotypes will have a much more negative effect on people in the hood, who dont have the advantages of the former.

 

[jugjugwacwac]

You guys talk about Jamaican/AA/Nigerian culture as though its a monolith.

Also its interesting you dont deploy these IQ/Genetics arguments for cadaan people.

From the UK:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/mar/22/white-british-children-outperformed-by-minorities

Nine minority groups of children are above the average, including Bangladeshi, Ghanaian, Indian, Sierra Leonean and Vietnamese, data reveals.

Do British whites have inferior genetics to American whites?

So many more factors go into school acheivement than just IQ, such as motivation and family pressures. Cadaans are not as motivated to do well as these other immigrants for various reasons. These immigrant kids may be doing better but give them IQ tests and you'll see the cadaan kids come out on top as a group and u might even have some of the cadaan boys who never studied or handed in assignments and were failing their classes score the highest on the tests. Whites are more intelligent on average than blacks, Arabs, brown people, natives and South East Asians. The only people who give them competition are East Asians like the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans. But even here there is an important caveat...the East Asian IQ is about the same or maybe even slightly higher than the White IQ on average but their IQ distribution on the bell curve is more narrow. This means they they have less idiots than cadaans but also substantially less geniuses as well. That's why the greatest creatives, philosophers and minds in general usually happen to be cadaan and not East Asians.

The same pattern is observed between men and women, with the IQ of men being a few points higher but their bell curve being more spread out than the bell curve of women, which is more narrow. This means most women hover around average IQ and dont have many idiots nor highly intelligent/genius level people, while you'll find many men who are quite dull but also quite a chunk who are highly intelligent and even genius level. The only race/ethnic group which beats everyone, including cadaans and east asians, are the Ashkenazi Jews, who happen to be the most inelligent group of people in the world. Just look at each group and their achievements and it'll all make sense. Reality never lies.

All of this mind u is backed up by countless studies and experiments.

 

[Insomnia]

OK, we agree much more than we disagree here. Id only note that culture is very fluid. I assure you the children of Middle-Class Caribbeans in the States like hiphop etc but it isnt a ruinous choice. However conforming to those stereotypes will have a much more negative effect on people in the hood, who dont have the advantages of the former.

Ruunti Blacks in America got fucked by Integration.