Tribal elder advises the father of Luul to forgive her killer and give him another wife.

[Dooyo]

Nah, she said google is free and then called me a feminist. If she’s serious about the deen, she would have googled it herself instead of saying nonsense with her chest. Also what woman seriously believes she can be r-worded and chopped up and a man get away with it by someone else paying Diya on his behalf? Does such a woman even have an ounce of self perseverance and the fact that she was quick to call me a ‘feminist’ for correcting her tells me everything I need to know.

I think she actually might be partially right.

It seems like it all depends on the Islamic courts ruling, there's scenarios where a perpetrator might not be killed and could instead receive the following combos instead
-100 lashes (hadd of zina/unmarried) and diyya/dowry payment
-banished from the land (hadd of Hirabah) and diyya payment
-hands and legs chopped (hadd of Hirabah) and diyya payment
- or just hadd of zina

https://islamcompass.com/punishment-for-rape-in-islamic-law/

 

[Idilinaa]

The payed off Diyah is mostly common in rural nomadic areas, you can neither jail (There are no jail cells in Miiyi) or execute someone for a crime( in fear of retaliation). You pay a hefty fine as a punishment and are made to reconcile to prevent further violence.

Historically in Somalia the cities/states ,agricultural villages and coastal towns connected to sultanates people were either executed, put to trail (even trail by fire) and jailed.

During the two administrations after independence it was handled with severe punishment, policing and rape/killings were extremely rare as a consequence.

Same during the brief Islamic Courts Union era, where justice were mandated by non-clanal courts and parroling police units funded by business men.

It's important to understand this because the current situation in Somalia described by @Hodan from HR and @Angelina is deeply connected to collapse of the central state, which has been replaced with weak corrupt clan federalism, that was imposed on Somalis from the outside.

So people as a consequence have turned to the private sector for employment & basic services(93% of the jobs) not the public sector(government) which is riddled with nepotism & discrimination and to their local clan leaders for justice and law because they don't trust the corrupt state.

When historically Clan elders were outside of politics concerned with rural welfare, and acted as mediators and they were subject to and regulated by a over-arching non-clanal state actors and Sheikhs.

I encourage you all to read this to get an accurate understanding of the distortion of their role:

The Impact of the Role of Traditional Leaders on Politico-Governance in Somalia: Present Realities and Past Reflections​

Today’s traditional office holders cannot functionally be equated to the pre-colonial or even pre 1980 traditional entities. The main difference is that the former was free from political patronage and was mainly making decisions on behalf of the people, but the latter works under political benefaction so it does not make the main decisions. Political patronage and office distortion have been practiced since the colonial era, and it was also used in the 1980s, but it has become out of control during the Civil War era. Most of the clan chiefs, within various levels, have become clients of corrupt politicians.

As a result, there are uncountable and mostly uncontrollable clan chiefs in the country today. Most of them don’t have the power they usually claim on their community. Another new common aspect among the incumbents is that almost all of them live in the cities and involve politics rather than developmental issues. The practice has deeply affected and corrupted these traditional institutions.

Admittedly, they are consumed by covering the failures of political leadership. They are allowed to deal with daily incidents instead of dealing with social developmental issues. They are dried out by doing police, municipal court, judiciary, and even parliamentary job. But still, they don’t mind to keep that problem on their shoulders. In that situation, they may help, but they cannot be a base for the process of building a modern state. And it’s difficult to expect from them that they can fully discern all dimensions of reconciliation requirements. It seems that they are losing their role to other sides

One of the recommendations:

The Somali government stands today for the role of the historical authoritative states. Since the role of the present-day elders can be compared to the historical chiefdoms at best, their role must be confined to sociocultural issues

Even the Kacaan government had a better grasp of their role than the current admin that distorts it as they were made into nabadoons tasked with only social-cultural communal issues.

And historically people all walks of life both men and women used to find employment in the cities/towns/villages pre-colonial era and in the independence era/revolutionary era by the state as the main employer. And foreign observers during the pre-colonial era remarked how justice was handled extremely well in the major towns.

So Somalis have to challenge and reform the system, instead of trying creating an image of a cultural status quo because it's not.
And we should broaden it to understand that it not only effects women badly but it affects all of us. Understanding that any one group or section that faces injustice is an injustice towards us all and that will make people act against it.

 

[wonyluvr]

I've heard from a couple of HG elders that since 1993, there's been a terrible issue with disorganization and getting the various groups/youth to heed authority. Many of them have mentioned the Bloody Monday massacre by the US military (Abdi House Raid) that occurred during a peace conference (and the funnily enough, also a HG summit to vote Caydiid out of politics and to withdraw support from him for the atrocities being committed by the USC) in 1993.

They stated that many respected HG sheikhs and elders were killed in the raid, leaving a void in leadership which lead to disorganization and chaos. This could be one of the reasons as why we still see HG groups still wildin out and expanding in the south.

Spoiler: Causalities

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[Rayaale]

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The payed off Diyah is mostly common in rural nomadic areas, you can neither jail (There are no jail cells in Miiyi) or execute someone for a crime( in fear of retaliation). You pay a hefty fine as a punishment and are made to reconcile to prevent further violence.

Historically in Somalia the cities/states ,agricultural villages and coastal towns connected to sultanates people were either executed, put to trail (even trail by fire) and jailed.

During the two administrations after independence it was handled with severe punishment, policing and rape/killings were extremely rare as a consequence.

Same during the brief Islamic Courts Union era, where justice were mandated by non-clanal courts and parroling police units funded by business men.

It's important to understand this because the current situation in Somalia described by @Hodan from HR and @Angelina is deeply connected to collapse of the central state, which has been replaced with weak corrupt clan federalism, that was imposed on Somalis from the outside.

So people as a consequence have turned to the private sector for employment & basic services(93% of the jobs) not the public sector(government) which is riddled with nepotism & discrimination and to their local clan leaders for justice and law because they don't trust the corrupt state.

When historically Clan elders were outside of politics concerned with rural welfare, and acted as mediators and they were subject to and regulated by a over-arching non-clanal state actors and Sheikhs.

I encourage you all to read this to get an accurate understanding of the distortion of their role:

The Impact of the Role of Traditional Leaders on Politico-Governance in Somalia: Present Realities and Past Reflections​

One of the recommendations:


Even the Kacaan government had a better grasp of their role than the current admin that distorts it as they were made into nabadoons tasked with only social-cultural communal issues.

And historically people all walks of life both men and women used to find employment in the cities/towns/villages pre-colonial era and in the independence era/revolutionary era by the state as the main employer. And foreign observers during the pre-colonial era remarked how justice was handled extremely well in the major towns.

So Somalis have to challenge and reform the system, instead of trying creating an image of a cultural status quo because it's not.
And we should broaden it to understand that it not only effects women badly but it affects all of us. Understanding that any one group or section that faces injustice is an injustice towards us all and that will make people act against it.

Are you a historian you seem to be well versed in Somali history

 

[Marmarsi]

This is one of the calamities we have as Somalis. We have low IQ women who believe a man can r-word them and chop them up like the case I was talking about and his qabil can pay diya. Why even come for the men when we have women like that walking around?

It’s not just the women though, the men are not any different. No one in Somalia has a strong sense of self-preservation .. if they did they would riot everytime these murderers, rapists and thieves evade justice.

No man, woman or child is safe there as long they believe that their laandheere cousins freedom is far more important than keeping those streets safe.

 

[CABDULWALI XASAN.]

More has to with qabil . I would call somali society misoginistic

 

[_Yusuf_]

I stand corrected, it was @_Yusuf_ and @Hilmaam, but you did not correct them either. So, what does silence mean in the face of misogyny? Approval, or you simply don't care.


View attachment 343400

 

[EyiPunter]

I really can't stand this guy. he's truly someone I would enjoy getting thrown in prison for life. he works just to divide Somali people in any way possible. he was behind some state about Somalia President not being a real president and stating we are all Ethiopian and Somalia doesn't exist at all. He was inprison for 6 months to 1 years for that statement. afterwards he retracted his statement and was interviewed, but I personally would have offed him or let him do life for that statement.

 

[Basra]

x.com

x.com

Usually I don’t trust what that twitter user posts but i watched the video and this man Suldaan Hooley advises the father of Luul Abdelazizz to forgive the killer and give his other daughter to the man who killed Luul.

I can’t believe this man was given a platform on some sort of Somali channel and is spouting this. You can fight me on this and much as you want, but Somali society is incredibly misogynistic. The lives of women aren’t valued and this man has such little value for women that he’ll advise that a grieving father forgive the man that burnt his daughter alive and in fact give him another daughter to potentially kill.

And before you argue with me and say it’s ’one man’ it’s been several and they’re been vocal.

He does seem contrite and sorry tho. Maybe i am biased because he is semi-handsome in a habar gidir waaayyyy

 

[Laiss]

x.com

x.com

Usually I don’t trust what that twitter user posts but i watched the video and this man Suldaan Hooley advises the father of Luul Abdelazizz to forgive the killer and give his other daughter to the man who killed Luul.

I can’t believe this man was given a platform on some sort of Somali channel and is spouting this. You can fight me on this and much as you want, but Somali society is incredibly misogynistic. The lives of women aren’t valued and this man has such little value for women that he’ll advise that a grieving father forgive the man that burnt his daughter alive and in fact give him another daughter to potentially kill.

And before you argue with me and say it’s ’one man’ it’s been several and they’re been vocal.

wtffffffffff

 

[Angelina]

It’s not just the women though, the men are not any different. No one in Somalia has a strong sense of self-preservation .. if they did they would riot everytime these murderers, rapists and thieves evade justice.

No man, woman or child is safe there as long they believe that their laandheere cousins freedom is far more important than keeping those streets safe.

True.

Recently heard about a little Madhiban boy who was r-worded by a Dugsi Macaalin I think. Due to the fact that the Macaalin is from a more ‘Landheere’ Qabil, odeys in the area have tried to silence the father of the victim and now they can’t get justice.

These people don’t value anyone. What makes them think that so called Macaalin won’t secretly target their children as well?

They don’t value anything. Not their daughters, not their wives, not their sons and ultimately not themselves. They’re on a mission to completely ruin themselves and society at large all for the sake of being a bunch of mafias that defend each other even if their sons and daughters are also harmed in the process so be it. They can’t even be bothered to be hyper vigilant for the sake of their own children who could have easily have been victims.

 

[Angelina]

wtffffffffff

Yes sis, this is the state that we’re in.

 

[Idilinaa]

Are you a historian you seem to be well versed in Somali history

I try to learn it to understand our people, i wish others did the same.

Somalis historically were among the most progressive societies(not in the liberal western sense) when it came to women and it would've continue trend in that direction if the collapse and external encroachment didn't happen

Now they just find themselves hostage to their situation, even more so because most don't have a good grasp of their history.

 

[Aseer]

I try to learn it to understand our people, i wish others did the same.

Somalis historically were among the most progressive societies(not in the liberal western sense) when it came to women and it would continue trend in that direction if the collapse and external encroachment didn't happen

Now they just find ourselves hostage to their situation, even more so because most don't have a good grasp of their history.

Yes people think our society in terms of women rights was backwards but infact it wasnt there were many influential and well known female figures in somalia for example we produced the first female african pilot Asli Hassan Abade and many other notable women who held high ranking positions in our social class. Sad how all of this was dismantled and how our ancestors paved the way for progression but it was destroyed by the past generation undoing all the changes we underwent.

 

[Idilinaa]

Yes people think our society in terms of women rights was backwards but infact it wasnt there were many influential and well known female figures in somalia for example we produced the first female african pilot Asli Hassan Abade and many other notable women who held high ranking positions in our social class.

It actually extends beyond Asli Hassan Abade and before the revolutionary period, it only reflects continuing historical trend in my book.

I gave like a historical chronology and related some of it to @Angelina in another thread, feel free to read it:

Somalis and Somalia culturally speaking aren't really strict patriarchal society.

Historically progression always accompanied expansion of womens role in society , Somali women were quranic teachers, were part of the clergy as ''Sheikhas/Ay's''/Bints'', they led army troops as commanders in medieval times for example Bintu Maxfud Dalombiru and early modern period Hasna Doreh . They participated in ruling, either direct or indirect.

In economics/trade they managed funds and resources that was gathered, in industry although men were blacksmiths, woodcarvers/carpenters, masons, leather makers/tanners. Somali women were pottery makers, basket makers, wove fabric mats and jointly weaved cloth/textiles alongside men.

In the independence movements, Somali women formed their own branch among the SYL and participated in the struggle.

You also see their important role in Kacaan period Somalia women were seen as the backbone of the revolution and even were well represented in medicine, stem, upper levels of education, parliament and the first female pilot in the Muslim world and Africa was a Somali Asli Hassan Abade and they formed their own democratic organization with support of the government

When Malcom X said that you can measure the progress of society by the progression and inclusion of women. He was dead on, history testifies to it as well.

The medieval times is the greatest example. You have female rulers even and they even went around administrating and collected taxes like sicilis in the 1600s document that about the Sultan Abukar Abroones daughter Imbia.

Its the best example because its a period marked with prosperity so their options were expanded upon which afforded them to participate more in the political and intellectual life and you see clear examples of it. As opposed dividing into strict gender roles for complementary survival, during periods of less fortunes.

There was female saints and teachers. Well known Hadith scholars as well click the link i shared of some information in another thread. quranic teachers, were part of the clergy as ''Sheikhas/Ay's''/Bints'', so to say that there is more Arabs in comparison that's not true.

And even the early modern period high literacy in Somali towns/cities was due to female teachers. Also unlike Arabs , Somalis had notable existence of female military commanders, which is rare in the Muslim world.



They also weaved textiles, and made pottery and ceramics. Also they managed the funds and resources that was gathered, its where Hagbad financing systems came from.

Somali women also owned and sold property in cities , so they were involved in the real estate market like how it's recorded in Barawa Qadi records.

There are other economic aspects i can mention as well, how Somali women possessed and collected a lot of wealth through jewelry and also pushed that domestic demand/production and the trade of it.


Interesting stuff i encourage you to look into it.

One thing you will noticed from looking at old 20th century photos/depictions is how very fond Somali women were of wearing different types of ornaments, earrings, necklaces, collars, bracelets etcs.

There is a historical and economic aspects of this Jewlery tradition of Somali women and the collections we have go back to the 1700s. But the tradition go back even further based on historical medieval descriptions and it tells the story of a much more significant role of women in the local economic systems

I don't know the specifics about that, but what is a apparent to me is that progress always involved expansion of women's choices and active participation.

Societies that keep women back deliberately are backward. Somali muslim Scholars like Osman Keenadiid advocated for Somali womens progress in education.

 

[Marmarsi]

True.

Recently heard about a little Madhiban boy who was r-worded by a Dugsi Macaalin I think. Due to the fact that the Macaalin is from a more ‘Landheere’ Qabil, odeys in the area have tried to silence the father of the victim and now they can’t get justice.

These people don’t value anyone. What makes them think that so called Macaalin won’t secretly target their children as well?

They don’t value anything. Not their daughters, not their wives, not their sons and ultimately not themselves. They’re on a mission to completely ruin themselves and society at large all for the sake of being a bunch of mafias that defend each other even if their sons and daughters are also harmed in the process so be it. They can’t even be bothered to be hyper vigilant for the sake of their own children who could have easily have been victims.

This sounds a bit strange I’m sure but is it possible that

True.

Recently heard about a little Madhiban boy who was r-worded by a Dugsi Macaalin I think. Due to the fact that the Macaalin is from a more ‘Landheere’ Qabil, odeys in the area have tried to silence the father of the victim and now they can’t get justice.

These people don’t value anyone. What makes them think that so called Macaalin won’t secretly target their children as well?

They don’t value anything. Not their daughters, not their wives, not their sons and ultimately not themselves. They’re on a mission to completely ruin themselves and society at large all for the sake of being a bunch of mafias that defend each other even if their sons and daughters are also harmed in the process so be it. They can’t even be bothered to be hyper vigilant for the sake of their own children who could have easily have been victims.

The boy that got shot to death after a soldier had ordered him to buy something from the shop and he denied his request, the tuktuk drivers that routinely get shot for refusing to pay up whenever soldiers set up random illegal checkpoints. In most of these cases forget about an investigation, nobody is ever even detained. If lucky, there is an investigation and when the culprit is found, lacag aa la kala qeybsada and they move on. Whether the victim is a man or a woman is irrelevant. Perpetrators face little to no social or legal consequences. I think it’s also why so many hg clannists are pissed, some of them genuinely believe that the only reason the somali community made a big deal out of this particular case and are demanding justice (deathprnalty) be carried out is because the perpetrator is HG this is the true injustice in their eyes.

I don’t think the way Luuls case has been dealt with by the state has much to do with misogyny. If anything her being a woman (a pregnant one at that) is why there was a massive public outcry and the state feels like they have to carry out the d3athpenalty to prove themselves.

It sounds bizarre but members of ”landheere” qabils take great pride in being able to commit crimes against others with impunity. ”MJ above the law” ”HG above the law” is a common saying lol. they regularly brag about it publicly. Nothing screams landheere and shows proof of the (social, political, financial) power that a clan carries more than being able to violate others in the most gruesome ways and still being able to walk freely. Luuls murderer being held accountable by the state signifies loss in that kind of power, it’s why they’re chimping out everywhere.

Yesterday I saw a livestream on tiktok that said ”Is it okay to k*ll a man for a kontonley (female)” in reference to this case lol, and yes it was hosted by women. I don’t think a man would ever dare to say such vile misogynist nonsense publicly. Wax ee sheegan ay waayen.

After the public outcry his clansmen have tried to accuse the poor dead mother of having committed adultery, that didn’t stick. They even claimed she had k*lled herself due to jealousy, people just thought they were psychotic so they stopped saying that lmao. Now they’re running around trying to psyop somali people into believing that womens lives are worth less. This kind of misogyny is alien to somali people, but ofc that doesn’t stop these delusional qabilists from trying though

 

[Idilinaa]

Even the concept of Landheere and Langaab which i see being thrown around even has been greatly distorted as well, it really has nothing to do with someones inherent value or position. It's a description of long branch in the lineage tree and short branch, the number of generations and members. They could also be cousin lineages, so it's not really about division either.

The langaabs were historically often politically alied to and were given protection by the landheere clans as patrons. Some cases were even given client status if adopted, to grow themselves .
So opposed to oppressing, they were actually tasked with ensuring their well being and inclusion.

 

[Angelina]

I don’t think the way Luuls case has been dealt with by the state has much to do with misogyny. If anything her being a woman (a pregnant one at that) is why there was a massive public outcry and the state feels like they have to carry out the d3athpenalty to prove themselves.

It sounds bizarre but members of ”landheere” qabils take great pride in being able to commit crimes against others with impunity. ”MJ above the law” ”HG above the law” is a common saying lol. they regularly brag about it publicly. Nothing screams landheere and shows proof of the (social, political, financial) power that a clan carries more than being able to violate others in the most gruesome ways and still being able to walk freely. Luuls murderer being held accountable by the state signifies loss in that kind of power, it’s why they’re chimping out everywhere.

The thing is, many HG men on social media have shown they don’t have the same regard for their women. I’ve seen videos of them saying that Sheikhal shouldn’t ask for the death penalty over a mere woman but instead get one of Luul’s brothers to marry a HG woman and if they want to burn her they can.

The thing is, that within itself is a huge indication that misogyny is the driving factor. Women aren’t valued in the tribe system. Somalis have already been saying for many years, women don’t have a qabil. I don’t want to use the actual crude proverb they say, but if you do know you’d know what I’m hinting at.

Yesterday I saw a livestream on tiktok that said ”Is it okay to k*ll a man for a kontonley (female)” in reference to this case lol, and yes it was hosted by women. I don’t think a man would ever dare to say such vile misogynist nonsense publicly. Wax ee sheegan ay waayen.

I’ve seen men pose that question as well so it’s not just women, but what people don’t understand is that women can have intense internalized misogyny especially when raised in an ultra patriarchal society. Somali women aren’t exempt from this misogyny I talk about because the truth of the matter is that if many women didn’t devalue themselves it would be easier for women to get justice. Women could easily band together as a class and demand certain things but it’s not possible since a lot of women are male identified and will spout the same thing an oppressive man believes in.

After the public outcry his clansmen have tried to accuse the poor dead mother of having committed adultery, that didn’t stick. They even claimed she had k*lled herself due to jealousy, people just thought they were psychotic so they stopped saying that lmao. Now they’re running around trying to psyop somali people into believing that womens lives are worth less. This kind of misogyny is alien to somali people, but ofc that doesn’t stop these delusional qabilists from trying though

If it was a case of just tribalism and trying to peddle misogyny because it’s convenient, they wouldn’t be bringing their own women into the mix. From time some of them are willing to sacrifice a HG woman and for her to be burnt in exchange of a male killer should tell you everything.

Im deeply disturbed and disappointed by Somalis as of late and I hope every young woman wakes up. You can landheere or Langaab but ultimately the qabil isn’t there to protect women, it’s for men because they’ll rather sacrifice an innocent HG woman over a killer.

 

[Marmarsi]

The thing is, many HG men on social media have shown they don’t have the same regard for their women. I’ve seen videos of them saying that Sheikhal shouldn’t ask for the death penalty over a mere woman but instead get one of Luul’s brothers to marry a HG woman and if they want to burn her they can.

The thing is, that within itself is a huge indication that misogyny is the driving factor. Women aren’t valued in the tribe system. Somalis have already been saying for many years, women don’t have a qabil. I don’t want to use the actual crude proverb they say, but if you do know you’d know what I’m hinting at.

I’ve seen men pose that question as well so it’s not just women, but what people don’t understand is that women can have intense internalized misogyny especially when raised in an ultra patriarchal society. Somali women aren’t exempt from this misogyny I talk about because the truth of the matter is that if many women didn’t devalue themselves it would be easier for women to get justice. Women could easily band together as a class and demand certain things but it’s not possible since a lot of women are male identified and will spout the same thing an oppressive man believes in.



If it was a case of just tribalism and trying to peddle misogyny because it’s convenient, they wouldn’t be bringing their own women into the mix. From time some of them are willing to sacrifice a HG woman and for her to be burnt in exchange of a male killer should tell you everything.

Im deeply disturbed and disappointed by Somalis as of late and I hope every young woman wakes up. You can landheere or Langaab but ultimately the qabil isn’t there to protect women, it’s for men because they’ll rather sacrifice an innocent HG woman over a killer.

”you can burn her if you want” was said in jest though, I don’t think thats proof of them valuing womens lives less tbh. Very inappropriate joke though.

 

[GeeljireGenius]

The problem is somalis listen to every crazy guy and give him a platform instead of ignoring him.