Tribal elder advises the father of Luul to forgive her killer and give him another wife.

[Angelina]

”you can burn her if you want” was said in jest though, I don’t think thats proof of them valuing womens lives less tbh. Very inappropriate joke though.

When you combine that with saying women are 50 and men are 100 hence the life of a man is worth more and saying that they’re willing to marry to marry off HG women to Sheikhal ect as some sort of ‘replacement’ of a beloved daughters that paints a deep picture. Even without the ‘you can burn her’ comment, it’s disturbing and insidious.

You can’t take things as a joke when there isn’t a history of misogynistic commentary. Somalis of todays modern world have said it themselves: Women don’t have qabils, hence a woman’s life isn’t worth the same as an actual tribal member.

 

[Marmarsi]

When you combine that with saying women are 50 and men are 100 hence the life of a man is worth more and saying that they’re willing to marry to marry off HG women to Sheikhal ect as some sort of ‘replacement’ of a beloved daughters that paints a deep picture. Even without the ‘you can burn her’ comment, it’s disturbing and insidious.

You can’t take things as a joke when there isn’t a history of misogynistic commentary. Somalis of todays modern world have said it themselves: Women don’t have qabils, hence a woman’s life isn’t worth the same as an actual tribal member.

What is a mans life worth in Somalia?

I can’t argue that people in Somalia believe womens lives are worth less than men when many of these men die daily at the hands of soldiers, policemen, and regular men and nobody is held accountable. If anything it seems that cases involving women seems to garner more public outcry and are more likely to be resolved by the state.

I’m not denying that sexism is a problem, I just don’t think the kind of sexism you’re describing exists in Somalia (yet ..). There’s widespread exploitation, mistreatment and murder of vulnerable people yes, because there are no institutions to protect *anybody*. Therein lies the issue.

But I don’t think that they genuinely believe womens lives are worth less. Nobodys life is worth anything in Somalia.

 

[Kalsoon]

This man himself doesn’t come off as a wise individual. Pretty easy to see why people are calling him a grifter. His manipulation tactic is apparent.

The wise story he told was pretty stupid too. Only a father who doesn’t care for or hates his girls would marry them to a man who would lay a finger on them.

On my socials I’ve seen more women advocating for the wife killer to not be killed. It was shocking at first but now I’m not so surprised. There’s many people who lack xikmad, a sense of justice and empathy in the society.

 

[Rayaale]

I try to learn it to understand our people, i wish others did the same.

Somalis historically were among the most progressive societies(not in the liberal western sense) when it came to women and it would've continue trend in that direction if the collapse and external encroachment didn't happen

Now they just find themselves hostage to their situation, even more so because most don't have a good grasp of their history.

My grandmother who’s in her early 80s says the same that life back then before the civil war was great for women

 

[Angelina]

This man himself doesn’t come off as a wise individual. Pretty easy to see why people are calling him a grifter. His manipulation tactic is apparent.

The wise story he told was pretty stupid too. Only a father who doesn’t care for or hates his girls would marry them to a man who would lay a finger on them.

On my socials I’ve seen more women advocating for the wife killer to not be killed. It was shocking at first but now I’m not so surprised. There’s many people who lack xikmad, a sense of justice and empathy in the society.

Yep, I saw one mad woman say he’s good looking, please don’t kill him, I’ll be his wife.

It’s time for us to smell the coffee and recognize many of our women suffer from some sort of self-hatred and it is indeed a form of internalized misogyny. Advocating for a man that can burn you alive is insane and women don’t get to say these things Scott free, they too need to held accountable for there evil ways.

 

[Araabi]

This man himself doesn’t come off as a wise individual. Pretty easy to see why people are calling him a grifter. His manipulation tactic is apparent.

The wise story he told was pretty stupid too. Only a father who doesn’t care for or hates his girls would marry them to a man who would lay a finger on them.

On my socials I’ve seen more women advocating for the wife killer to not be killed. It was shocking at first but now I’m not so surprised. There’s many people who lack xikmad, a sense of justice and empathy in the society.

Judging issues based on a gender paradigm in a society where tribal politics overrides is essentially an erroneous outlook in my view. Why? Because it simplifies a complex array of issues by using emotive language.

For example, a Madhibaan male will have a much more difficult existence in Somalia than a female who hails from the major clans although they will both have their unique challenges and set of circumstances. Also, Somali men are by far the more likely of any category to get killed, burnt, slaughtered, executed, imprisoned and exiled. Making it look as if one gender is thriving at the expense of another is funny.

Because gender identity politics isn't as polarising as it is in the West, a Somali female can identify with her clan more primarily than her gender. And this isn't unique to Somalis. An Israeli woman will identity more with an Israeli man than with a Palestian woman in spite of common challenges that women share. That's how the real world works. For better or for worse. There is no semblance of governance in Somalia which means criminals like this man can get away with murder. That is the symptom of weak state institutions that cannot execute their basic functions. The court already applied the death penalty but cannot enforce it because of tribal politics which is stronger than the state.

 

[Angelina]

Judging issues based on a gender paradigm in a society where tribal politics overrides is essentially an erroneous outlook in my view. Why? Because it simplifies a complex array of issues by using emotive language.

I can easily say, judging a third world war ridden society on the treatment of Madhiban is erroneous since just as much Hawiyes, Daroods and other men from major clans die? In fact I’d wager more men from major clans die since they’re more likely to be in armed conflict? Can you see how we can all use that argument to dismiss the unique issues of minorities since Somalia is a land in which everyone suffers?

For example, a Madhibaan male will have a much more difficult existence in Somalia than a female who hails from the major clans although they will both have their unique challenges and set of circumstances. Also, Somali men are by far the more likely of any category to get killed, burnt, slaughtered, executed, imprisoned and exiled. Making it look as if one gender is thriving at the expense of another is funny.

The issue with your mindset is that you’re not understanding that multiple forms of oppressions can co-exist. The lower status of Midgaans doesn’t erase the unique plight of women, the issue of women and girls doesn’t erase the the unique issues that Somali Bantus face. The unique issues of the lower classes doesn’t erase the fact that even the well to do in Somalia can get blown up and their loved ones too. The unique issue of men more likely to be in armed conflict and join militia groups doesn’t erase that women and children too are being blown up.

Also, the idea that civilian Somali men are more likely to die is disputable as Somalis since the 90s have been using Kharxiis as a main form of killing and that doesn’t discriminate via gender. Anyone that’s in close proximity will get blown up. Furthermore, in the 90s women had the added torture of r-word that opposing clans used to do to humiliate enemy qabils. However, more Somali men do engage in armed struggles and clan wars which will obviously spike up the deaths of men compared to women, this is a no brainer but women on average die in wars that they have no involvement in, they’re dying in violent disputes in a land that doesn’t even recognize female leadership. Women in Somalia are mostly silent when it comes to politics since they make a tiny fraction in the cabinet. They're not the ones who call the shots and mobilize armies. Hence that does need to be held into account. Somalia is a man’s world. It’s a male centered dispute with men being at the helm of power and women and children are unfortunate casualties for the most part. This is well known as Somali men are quick to remind women that women have no qabil, so let’s be honest here. Ask yourself why do they say that?

Because gender identity politics isn't as polarising as it is in the West, a Somali female can identify with her clan more primarily than her gender. And this isn't unique to Somalis. An Israeli woman will identity more with an Israeli man than with a Palestian woman in spite of common challenges that women share. That's how the real world works. For better or for worse. There is no semblance of governance in Somalia which means criminals like this man can get away with murder. That is the symptom of weak state institutions that cannot execute their basic functions. The court already applied the death penalty but cannot enforce it because of tribal politics which is stronger than the state.

As for the last part, gender does play a role since there has been multiple discussions about how a woman who is supposedly half a man should not get the justice of her killer getting the death penalty. That’s something Somalis are indeed discussing and there have been numerous commentary of how a HG woman should be given in exchange. That cannot be ignore at all.

Furthermore, cases like the little 12 yr old girl that was r-worded and chopped up by her clansmen makes it glaryingly obvious that a Somali woman isn’t seen as equal to her clansmen. The elders during that case elected to pay Diya on behalf of the men who gang r-worded her and wanted to set those men free despite the heinous nature of the crime and the danger those boys present to other members of their clan. Internarional Pressure to Somalis abroad talking about women protesting is one of the reasons why a year later the boys were prosecuted.

I don’t deny Somalia is a place that’s currently unsafe for everyone, but there is a hierarchy and multiple forms of oppression can occur. A Landheere Somali woman can have more privilege than a Midgan man, but she can also be in a weaker position than a landheere man for instance? I know that multiple forms of oppression exists and my take is indeed nuanced.

 

[Araabi]

I can easily say, judging a third world war ridden society on the treatment of Madhiban is erroneous since just as much as Hawiyes, Daroods and other men from major clans die? In fact I’d wager more men from major clans die since they’re more likely to be in armed conflict? Can you see how we can all use that argument to dismiss the unique issues on minorities since Somalia is a land in which everyone suffers?

The main difference would be that one clan is marginalised in their specific clan identity which forms the most important and primary means of survivability in this part of the world. Tribal politics overrides everything. This is not to deny the unique challenges borne by females. However it needs to be highlighted that it is mitigated by clan politics which is their main form of existence. Something that is not afforded to the Madhibaan who even happens to be male.

The issue with your mindset is that you’re not understanding that multiple forms of oppressions can co-exist. The lower status of Midgaans doesn’t erase the unique plight of women, the issue of women and girls doesn’t erase the the unique issues that Somali Bantus face.

I get where you're coming from, however I'm highlighting that some are more primary than others. For example, clan based violence is by far the worst form of violence in Somalia and that is to be expected in a society where people primarily identify by clan. All other types of violence are a carryover from the aforementioned. This is not to dismiss the intersectionalities and other layers of wrongdoing that definitely exist, such as violence against women, FGM etc.

Also, the idea that civilian Somali men are more likely to die is disputable as Somalis since the 90s have been using Kharxiis as a main form of killing and that doesn’t discriminate via gender. Anyone that’s in close proximity will die. Furthermore, in the 90s women had the added torture of r-word that opposing clans used to humiliate enemy qabils. However, more Somali men do engage in armed struggles and clan wars, but women on average die in wars that they have no involvement in. Hence that does need to be held into account.

Well we wouldn't know unless we can see the statistics. Mass R of women happened during the height of the civil war mainly in Mogadishu against females from minority clans which is indicative of my main point. However most cases of R are single incidents. Clan based violence has killed well over 100k at the minimum, mainly men at the turn of the millennium. If you were to add up all of the civilians killed in AS bombings, it wouldn't likely amount to the number of men killed in clan based violence. Most conservative estimates of clan based violence of men fighting men since 1990 put the number at 500k.

As for the last part, gender does play a role since there has been multiple discussions about how a woman who is supposedly half a man should not get the justice of her killer getting the death penalty. That’s something Somalis are indeed discussing and there have been numerous commentary of how a HG woman should be given in exchange. That cannot be ignore at all.

I never said gender doesn't play a role. It just doesn't play as important of a role as clan politics which is exactly why you will see HG women supporting their relative even though he is a murderer by virtue of clan politics. Those same women will pick up arms to kill a man from another clan if that other man killed a HG woman. The issue you have is that you are establishing and implementing your understanding and primariness of gender into an equation where it doesn't fit. It fits your world because you grew up in a society where it is quite the norm where individualism, sexual orientation and gender is what determines your primary identity.

Furthermore, cases like the little 12 yr old girl that was r-worded and chopped up by her clansmen makes it glaryingly obvious that a Somali woman isn’t seen as equal to her clansmen. The elders during that case elected to pay Diya on behalf of the men who gang r-worded her and wanted to set those men free despite the heinous nature of the crime and the danger those boys present to other members of their clan. Internarional
Pressure to Somalis abroad talking about women protesting is one of the reasons why a year later the boys were prosecuted.

What about the case of Somali male victims of violence who don't ever get their diya paid even though they belong to major clans which happens almost weekly if not daily? In some parts of Somalia, there were even boys who were R. So where do they fit into the equation? We can all cite incidences of horrific violence but when you only narrow it down and project and even force a specific narrative based on one aspect of someone's identity then it smells like an agenda. When all you see is gender and nothing else, then you become completely blindsided to the suffering of everyone. Those victims were failed by a failed society and failed institutions. Discussions on diya are important and it's important to pay attention because we need serious reform that gives justice to the most vulnerable irrespective of gender.

I don’t deny Somalia is a place that’s currently unsafe for everyone, but there is a hierarchy and multiple forms of oppression can occur.

Looks like we agree.

 

[Khaemwaset]

This is not a tribal elder just some internet nigga. I suggest you change the title unless you want guests to have a certain view of Somalia

 

[Angelina]

The main difference would be that one clan is marginalised in their specific clan identity which forms the most important and primary means of survivability in this part of the world. Tribal politics overrides everything. This is not to deny the unique challenges borne by females. However it needs to be highlighted that it is mitigated by clan politics which is their main form of existence. Something that is not afforded to the Madhibaan who even happens to be male.



I get where you're coming from, however I'm highlighting that some are more primary than others. For example, clan based violence is by far the worst form of violence in Somalia and that is to be expected in a society where people primarily identify by clan. All other types of violence are a carryover from the aforementioned. This is not to dismiss the intersectionalities and other layers of wrongdoing that definitely exist, such as violence against women, FGM etc.


Well we wouldn't know unless we can see the statistics. Mass R of women happened during the height of the civil war mainly in Mogadishu against females from minority clans which is indicative of my main point. However most cases of R are single incidents. Clan based violence has killed well over 100k at the minimum, mainly men at the turn of the millennium. If you were to add up all of the civilians killed in AS bombings, it wouldn't likely amount to the number of men killed in clan based violence. Most conservative estimates of clan based violence of men fighting men since 1990 put the number at 500k.



I never said gender doesn't play a role. It just doesn't play as important of a role as clan politics which is exactly why you will see HG women supporting their relative even though he is a murderer by virtue of clan politics. Those same women will pick up arms to kill a man from another clan if that other man killed a HG woman. The issue you have is that you are establishing and implementing your understanding and primariness of gender into an equation where it doesn't fit. It fits your world because you grew up in a society where it is quite the norm where individualism, sexual orientation and gender is what determines your primary identity.



What about the case of Somali male victims of violence who don't ever get their diya paid even though they belong to major clans which happens almost weekly if not daily? In some parts of Somalia, there were even boys who were R. So where do they fit into the equation? We can all cite incidences of horrific violence but when you only narrow it down and project and even force a specific narrative based on one aspect of someone's identity then it smells like an agenda. When all you see is gender and nothing else, then you become completely blindsided to the suffering of everyone. Those victims were failed by a failed society and failed institutions. Discussions on diya are important and it's important to pay attention because we need serious reform that gives justice to the most vulnerable irrespective of gender.



Looks like we agree.

I agree with you. Highlighting the misogyny that’s rampant doesn’t take away the fact that clan violence, violence against minorities and the horrific kharxiis and I never had the intention of reducing everything to gender. I’m fully aware that Somalia is indeed a very complex country but I was merely highlight one aspect since it was misogyny that was being displayed by the man in the video I posted.